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On 11/21/2022 at 6:18 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Hindus do worship cows, don'tcha know?!

Although I'm pretty sure you're aware of this, and you're just being funny, no they don't. Would a believer hitch his god up to a plow and make it plow his fields? Or put a load on its back and force it to carry the goods to market?

:P 

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On 11/21/2022 at 7:15 PM, Thinking said:

Does/will a spirit enter the body of such a manufactured being?

Orson Scott Card, in his Ender's Game series, invents just such a character, "Jane."  She is an energy based non-artificial sentient creature that was placed within the ansible network by which spaceships and planets communicate instantly across galactic distances.

I believe his theory in the novels was that when an entity or construct reached a certain complexity of operability (capable of asking critical questions about the nature of its own existence) that it became inhabited by a form of sentience he calls an Aiúa. 

I'm pretty sure Card came up with this notion from his LDS beliefs. And that Jane is, like us, a spirit child of God.

I suppose it's possible that this may resemble the mechanism by which Adam and Eve became sentient. None of the creation stories we have in scripture describe the process in detail, so <shrug>. 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

And who's a fan of the Tribulation,anyway? Seems like a pretty odd thing to be fan of, in any case.

Not a fan of the interpretation that puts the tribulation at only 7 years. Most of the world's history has been on of much tribulation... and guy's who want to watch the world burn inspired and led by the one who wants the world to burn the most.

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

A recent book by Peter Zeihan, "The End of the World is Just the Beginning", states that the post-WW2 willingness of the US to use its navy to enforce the safety of international ocean commerce is what created our current ability to buy and sell commodities from incredibly distant and disparate parts of the world. And he also states that the American willingness to do so will soon end, triggering a global economic crisis.

After the collapse of Babylon the great, the whore of all the Earth the revelator John writes

Rev 18:

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

So this maritime established world order of global commerce and consumerism comes to an end...

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3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Would a believer hitch his god up to a plow and make it plow his fields? Or put a load on its back and force it to carry the goods to market?

:P 

“Cast your burden upon the Lord, and he will sustain you”. Psalms 55:22

:P

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2 hours ago, gav said:

Not a fan of the interpretation that puts the tribulation at only 7 years. Most of the world's history has been on of much tribulation... and guy's who want to watch the world burn inspired and led by the one who wants the world to burn the most.

Would it be even that long?

I'll admit unfamiliarity with the interpretation that puts the Tribulation at 7 years. Who says it will be that long? Or that short?  I myself have not tried to work out how long it would be -- and what's the sign indicating Day 1 of the Tribulation? We know pretty much the sign of its ending, but what sign will there of its "official" start? I think there are some who might take the First Vision of the start of it. Or the firing upon Fort Sumter in the American Civil War. Or a particular politician's election to the Presidency of the US. 

As for me, I tend to rely upon the scriptures that say that suggest that the time of tribulation will be shortened.

PofGP:JS1:M:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the covenant, those days shall be shortened." Also Matthew 24:22.

What's "shortened"? No idea. I suspect that this means that unless the Lord put a halt to it in some way that it would eventually mean that we'd all die and there'd be nobody left to welcome the Lord when He comes.

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2 hours ago, gav said:

So this maritime established world order of global commerce and consumerism comes to an end..

At least temporarily, until the Millennium allows free trade again, without the need for armies and navies.

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42 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

At least temporarily, until the Millennium allows free trade again, without the need for armies and navies.

Using “again” seems inappropriate as I think it highly unlikely the truly free trade of the millennium will much resemble what is currently called “free trade”.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Orson Scott Card, in his Ender's Game series, invents just such a character, "Jane."  She is an energy based non-artificial sentient creature that was placed within the ansible network by which spaceships and planets communicate instantly across galactic distances.

I believe his theory in the novels was that when an entity or construct reached a certain complexity of operability (capable of asking critical questions about the nature of its own existence) that it became inhabited by a form of sentience he calls an Aiúa. 

I'm pretty sure Card came up with this notion from his LDS beliefs. And that Jane is, like us, a spirit child of God.

I suppose it's possible that this may resemble the mechanism by which Adam and Eve became sentient. None of the creation stories we have in scripture describe the process in detail, so <shrug>. 

Shirley, you gotta quit jesting.

Just read Bukow 5 for Pete's sake! (Pete couldn't make it- something about a day of thanks? Missing a day on the boards for some superstition? Cheesh!)

(Sorry all, eating cranberries that tasted a bit funky)

Edited by mfbukowski
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I think Zeihan’s theories are flawed.

First that the seas will be unsafe without the US Navy ignores the probability of regional defense agreements taking over. I also heard him once talking about Japan maintaining security in the Pacific. Really? Japan and not China? He argues that China needs imports to maintain their economy (and they do) but Japan needs them much much more. China is admittedly likely to face some serious internal problems. The fallout of the one child policy and the stark gap between the haves who are living in an autocratic capitalist society and agricultural peasants who are little better off than they were in the 1950s. Something will give there at some point.

Second that a shrinking work force is the beginning of serious recession. If automation continues it may even end up a blessing. We are facing an economic cliff. Assuming we can maintain industrialized civilization in the coming years we may reach a point where full employment isn’t possible. This could lead to a dystopia or a wonderful civilization. My money is we will head towards the former first but might balk and change course.

This all assumes climate change and/or other factors don’t flip the board completely first.

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On 11/17/2022 at 12:33 AM, OGHoosier said:

This raises a serious question: are the old-fashioned biological ways of being important for humanity? Is there something about the "given-ness" of our place in the world that demands our respect? Or should we feel free to alter the world to whatever degree technology allows? What does it mean to be human?

YOU might like this

https://psyche.co/ideas/wilfrid-sellars-sensory-experience-and-the-myth-of-the-given

"If we want to understand what it is to be rational animals rather than mere creatures of habit, we should turn to cognitive scientists, roboticists, linguists, neuroscientists and other students of the mind. It’s there, and not in the obscure Myth of the Given, where we’ll find the complete scientific image of human reason."

Edited by mfbukowski
Remove jokery
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34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think Zeihan’s theories are flawed.

First that the seas will be unsafe without the US Navy ignores the probability of regional defense agreements taking over. I also heard him once talking about Japan maintaining security in the Pacific. Really? Japan and not China? He argues that China needs imports to maintain their economy (and they do) but Japan needs them much much more. China is admittedly likely to face some serious internal problems. The fallout of the one child policy and the stark gap between the haves who are living in an autocratic capitalist society and agricultural peasants who are little better off than they were in the 1950s. Something will give there at some point.

Second that a shrinking work force is the beginning of serious recession. If automation continues it may even end up a blessing. We are facing an economic cliff. Assuming we can maintain industrialized civilization in the coming years we may reach a point where full employment isn’t possible. This could lead to a dystopia or a wonderful civilization. My money is we will head towards the former first but might balk and change course.

This all assumes climate change and/or other factors don’t flip the board completely first.

I think Zeihan relies overly on very confident rhetoric, his "geopolitics" is often logical, perhaps even very relevant at the exact time its given, but misses the fact that the globe and its political systems are a complex system and curve balls emerge all the time.

My concern is that the current global world order is primarily consumerism based. If consumption slows or stops what happens? Can bail outs continue forever to artificially maintain consumer demand or prop up consumer spending. 30 trillion seems like an awfully deep hole to get out of while simultaneously digging.  Add to that the fact that the curve balls keep coming. Is the collapse of the great and spacious building not inevitable? It is standing in the air after all...

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57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Shirley, you gotta quit jesting.

Just read Bukow 5 for Pete's sake! (Pete couldn't make it- something about a day of thanks? Missing a day on the boards for some superstition? Cheesh!)

(Sorry all, eating cranberries that tasted a bit funky)

I thought the board was going to be dead today…

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I thought the board was going to be dead today…

Moi aussi!

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Would it be even that long?

I'll admit unfamiliarity with the interpretation that puts the Tribulation at 7 years. Who says it will be that long? Or that short?  I myself have not tried to work out how long it would be -- and what's the sign indicating Day 1 of the Tribulation? We know pretty much the sign of its ending, but what sign will there of its "official" start? I think there are some who might take the First Vision of the start of it. Or the firing upon Fort Sumter in the American Civil War. Or a particular politician's election to the Presidency of the US. 

As for me, I tend to rely upon the scriptures that say that suggest that the time of tribulation will be shortened.

PofGP:JS1:M:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be saved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the covenant, those days shall be shortened." Also Matthew 24:22.

What's "shortened"? No idea. I suspect that this means that unless the Lord put a halt to it in some way that it would eventually mean that we'd all die and there'd be nobody left to welcome the Lord when He comes.

Those big on the rapture are often big on a 7 year tribulation.

Deuteronomy 4 says the following:

25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger:

26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.

28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

 

And Jeremiah 30 says

4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

11 For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

 

For those of Israel the tribulation is the millennia in a scattered state.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Using “again” seems inappropriate as I think it highly unlikely the truly free trade of the millennium will much resemble what is currently called “free trade”.

Pardon me rolling my eyes. This is free trade: you have X; I want X; I am willing to give you Y in exchange; you are willing to take Y in exchange for your X. We trade and both of us are satisfied. That's free trade. Will it be different in the millennium?

 

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Shirley, you gotta quit jesting.

Just read Bukow 5 for Pete's sake! (Pete couldn't make it- something about a day of thanks? Missing a day on the boards for some superstition? Cheesh!)

(Sorry all, eating cranberries that tasted a bit funky)

I'm not jesting. And don't call me surely.

:D 

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28 minutes ago, gav said:

Those big on the rapture are often big on a 7 year tribulation.

I see. I guess that was how LaHaye and Jenkins managed to drag that tale out to however many books they published. I lost count. 16 was it? I only read the first six. It got too tedious to continue. I rather liked Nicolae. Seemed like a nice guy. 🤪 Then someone shot him.

But your quoted scriptures didn't say how long the tribulation was supposed to be. Or did they? I read through them twice and no number was quoted. My wife sometimes accuses me of giving things what she calls a "man look". And many times she goes to where I was looking for something and finds it right away. So, did I miss something?

I don't know how long the Tribulation will be. Or even if we're supposed to capitalize the word when referring to it. Why couldn't it take just 3 years? 

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1 hour ago, gav said:

I think Zeihan relies overly on very confident rhetoric, his "geopolitics" is often logical, perhaps even very relevant at the exact time its given, but misses the fact that the globe and its political systems are a complex system and curve balls emerge all the time.

My concern is that the current global world order is primarily consumerism based. If consumption slows or stops what happens? Can bail outs continue forever to artificially maintain consumer demand or prop up consumer spending. 30 trillion seems like an awfully deep hole to get out of while simultaneously digging.  Add to that the fact that the curve balls keep coming. Is the collapse of the great and spacious building not inevitable? It is standing in the air after all...

The endless requirement for growth is a problem. Things fall apart when it grows but doesn’t grow enough. It is not sustainable forever.

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6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not jesting. And don't call me surely.

:D 

Trust me.

I only take you on unsurely 

 

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