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The role of justification in forming beliefs


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14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I had to read that 3 times to be able to translate what I think it means; this is it:

"How can you find the benefits of moral beliefs when one is biased?" 

Answer: Alma 32. Go with what feels "sweet".

This is not science, it a question about emotion. There is no science of good and evil

Is a fetus a human being? Yes or no is not a matter of science.  Which feels best?

I am pro choice.  Make the choice and take the consequences. 

I don’t need science to deal with this question. I just need my conscience and a conflicted belief. You said no examples, but really that’s where the rubber meets the road, so for example with polygamy so many saints had to put away their moral qualms to accept polygamy. What was the good and bad of that process of accepting?

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Just now, Benjamin Seeker said:

But, the conversation inside of the context of a system of belief that has affected each of us deeply is much more meaningful to me than a more generalized and abstract one.

Ok, so could you rephrase your question please? Use simpler language that even I can understand  :)

 

 

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1 minute ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don’t need science to deal with this question. I just need my conscience and a conflicted belief. You said no examples, but really that’s where the rubber meets the road, so for example with polygamy so many saints had to put away their moral qualms to accept polygamy. What was the good and bad of that process of accepting?

We are not their judges.

If polygamy is wrong in God's eyes in all cases, (I don't believe that) but they did so believing they also were required to do so, a loving and righteous God I believe would not count it against them.

They were convinced they were doing good, but were not. It's like Adam and Eve. There was ambiguity in the directions

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15 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I guess so, but I’d rather have a Mormon-centric discussion.

I think that this would be quite difficult to do - why? Because we have very little in Mormonism that reflects any sort of discussion about the basis for morality or ethics. The strongest threads seem to me to come out of Divine Command Theory. But we run into problems there because we also recognize the challenge that occurs when the moral difference between Person 1 and Person 2 making the same actions is determined only by whether or not they had received instruction from God. For example, I do not believe that the Abraham test was actually whether or not Abraham had the 'faith' to sacrifice Isaac on the altar - it was whether or not he had the personal conviction to tell God 'No'. (This is not just a personal view - there are a lot of Jewish commentaries over the centuries that have argued that Abraham failed this test of his faith). Yet, try to bring this up in a Sunday School class, and see how much resistance you encounter. A common theme that the LDS Church argues is the best method to determining if that prompting is genuine is to see how it compares with earlier revelation:

Quote

God will not prompt his children to sin or go contrary to the specific direction or counsel of the leaders he has called and inspired to teach them. For this reason, we can often distinguish the promptings of the Holy Ghost from spurious signals by their consistency or lack of consistency with the commandments or counsel God has given us or all his children at an earlier time.

So, what happens to the "Thou shalt not kill"? I have yet to see an LDS leader discuss the Abrahamic test in the context of using this sort of metric to measure Abraham's response. The Book of Mormon provides an entirely different model in its Utilitarianism, when Nephi is told that "it is better for one man to perish ..." The Book of Mormon's narrative seems to spend some effort at making a justification here because of the conflict. Should the commandments only be followed (or broken) when they lead to this greater good? A recognition of these conflicting accounts, while not entirely new, remains only on the edges of Mormonism. I think that Mormonism is a young enough religious movement that it hasn't yet really begun to confront the difficulties of moral theory and its own inconsistent claims.  Further, we are still a religion of mostly converts (each of which brings to Mormonism a different perspective on what constitutes these justifications. So, I think that it is difficult to have a "Mormon-centric" discussion, simply because I don't think that we can produce a truly Mormon perspective on this sort of justification. I know of very few Mormons who have taken any time at all to consider the basis of their own morality or ethics, let alone who may have taken the time to lay out their own personal ethical manifestos.

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9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are not their judges.

If polygamy is wrong in God's eyes in all cases, (I don't believe that) but they did so believing they also were required to do so, a loving and righteous God I believe would not count it against them.

They were convinced they were doing good, but were not. It's like Adam and Eve. There was ambiguity in the directions

Or maybe it was just time for them to acknowledge they had limitations by way of an object lesson :D ...

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41 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don’t need science to deal with this question. I just need my conscience and a conflicted belief. You said no examples, but really that’s where the rubber meets the road, so for example with polygamy so many saints had to put away their moral qualms to accept polygamy. What was the good and bad of that process of accepting?

On a basic level the good is the blessings of obedience and the bad is the challenge of living up to the covenant.

Like pretty much everything in the gospel.

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1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

For example, I do not believe that the Abraham test was actually whether or not Abraham had the 'faith' to sacrifice Isaac on the altar - it was whether or not he had the personal conviction to tell God 'No'. (This is not just a personal view - there are a lot of Jewish commentaries over the centuries that have argued that Abraham failed this test of his faith). Yet, try to bring this up in a Sunday School class, and see how much resistance you encounter.

I agree with you, and have only ever heard one person bring this up in a Sunday School class.  It wasn't me, and at the time I was still of the (majority) opinion that Abraham passed his test.

1 hour ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

So, what happens to the "Thou shalt not kill"? I have yet to see an LDS leader discuss the Abrahamic test in the context of using this sort of metric to measure Abraham's response. The Book of Mormon provides an entirely different model in its Utilitarianism, when Nephi is told that "it is better for one man to perish ..." The Book of Mormon's narrative seems to spend some effort at making a justification here because of the conflict. Should the commandments only be followed (or broken) when they lead to this greater good?

Combine Abraham & Isaac and the story of Nephi & Laban with Joseph Smith's (apparent) deceptiveness about polygamy, and imo there is strong precedent justifying the rationalization of some pretty bad things. 

I don't have an argument or analysis which resolves these incongruities.  Imo one's moral compass needs to be internal rather than external, because there are some pretty questionable external examples. 

Personally I wouldn't mind greater emphasis on "do what is right, let the consequence follow" instead of "follow the external authority figure(s)."  Not that my vote counts! 

Edited by manol
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On 11/5/2022 at 6:13 AM, The Nehor said:

The problem there is that the Book of Job doesn’t make it complicated. God and Satan made the divine equivalent of a bar bet on what Job would do if he suffered. Job cries out to know and God says it is beyond your comprehension…..except it is not. The prologue gives a really simple and understandable explanation. Honestly God’s pronouncements in that book come across as more evasive than divine. “Oh, well, you wouldn’t understand. Woah, look at the time. I gotta get home. I have to swing by Kolob on the way. K, thx, bye!”

I like to believe that the prologue to Job was added later because the prologue doesn’t fit with the theme of the book at all.

I think you're reading the book too literally.  The book of Job is Wisdom Literature, and it needs to be understood through that genre.  The character called "Satan" in the book is not who we think of as Satan, but it is "the satan", which isn't a person (or individual we know as Satan), it's an office or a position.  

There are some interesting approaches to how to understand Job (for example, on the LDS Perspectives Podcast, there is Episode 89: Wisdom Literature with Dan Belnap, and Episode 52: The (Im)patient Job – Michael Austin.  Both of those podcasts explain how "the satan" character works in the story).  One of the most interesting from an LDS point of view (in my opinion) is by Mack C. Stirling in the Interpreter:  Job: An LDS Reading.  He views the book of Job as a literary analogue of the temple endowment ritual, telling Job's spiritual journey "in terms of Adam’s journey — beginning in a situation of security, going through tribulations, finding the way to God and being admitted into His presence", culminating with Job at the veil, speaking with God.   

Viewing the book of Job as Wisdom Literature changes everything.  The book may still sound kind of strange and crazy to us, but at least we know that there's some form of "wisdom" behind all the strange and crazy.

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4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think you're reading the book too literally.  The book of Job is Wisdom Literature, and it needs to be understood through that genre.  The character called "Satan" in the book is not who we think of as Satan, but it is "the satan", which isn't a person (or individual we know as Satan), it's an office or a position.  

There are some interesting approaches to how to understand Job (for example, on the LDS Perspectives Podcast, there is Episode 89: Wisdom Literature with Dan Belnap, and Episode 52: The (Im)patient Job – Michael Austin.  Both of those podcasts explain how "the satan" character works in the story).  One of the most interesting from an LDS point of view (in my opinion) is by Mack C. Stirling in the Interpreter:  Job: An LDS Reading.  He views the book of Job as a literary analogue of the temple endowment ritual, telling Job's spiritual journey "in terms of Adam’s journey — beginning in a situation of security, going through tribulations, finding the way to God and being admitted into His presence", culminating with Job at the veil, speaking with God.   

Viewing the book of Job as Wisdom Literature changes everything.  The book may still sound kind of strange and crazy to us, but at least we know that there's some form of "wisdom" behind all the strange and crazy.

For me it is one of the most "doctrinal" books in the OT.

No question about its temple relevance. Those passages are huge testimony builders for me.

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 11/4/2022 at 9:33 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

On a related side note, if you recall that interesting study done maybe 6 or 7 years ago where MRIs were taken of church members when they were feeling the spirit, one of the findings of the study was that many of the participants’ prefrontal cortex shut down when they heard the voice of a general authority. That’s the part of the brain responsible for critical thinking.

 

 

When I go into a MRI machine my entire brain goes into hibernation. I do not want to know that I am in a small tube with electronic magnets going around and around and around. On the other hand my wife's brain goes into hyperactive mode, flight or fight mode. She says prayer is the only thing that helps her.

So I would suggest that these tests are flawed for numerous psychological reasons.

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1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

When I go into a MRI machine my entire brain goes into hibernation. I do not want to know that I am in a small tube with electronic magnets going around and around and around. On the other hand my wife's brain goes into hyperactive mode, flight or fight mode. She says prayer is the only thing that helps her.

So I would suggest that these tests are flawed for numerous psychological reasons.

This makes me want to cancel my appointment at the end of the month. 

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8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

When I go into a MRI machine my entire brain goes into hibernation. I do not want to know that I am in a small tube with electronic magnets going around and around and around. On the other hand my wife's brain goes into hyperactive mode, flight or fight mode. She says prayer is the only thing that helps her.

So I would suggest that these tests are flawed for numerous psychological reasons.

Interesting suggestion. I was in an MRI yesterday and I had the intent to turn my brain off, the noise definitely helped me do that (I think perhaps similar to what a washing machine can do for a baby; try it though always hold on to the infant seat they are in just in case it vibrates off, both the vibration and the noise can quiet them…though not all the time; my guess is it is similar to a weighted blanket, the surrounding constant stimulation causes a shutdown).  The tech said she had to wake up clients all the time.  Her making sure her clients are as comfortable as they can be no doubt helped.  She had prepared an air mattress inflated just enough for back and neck support, placed pillows for arms and legs to relax while staying in position, supplied a warm blanket, and provided a comfortable set of headphones with my chosen music.  My first MRI, the tech just had me lay down on the slab and pushed the button, I wanted to move just to get comfortable; it was also a closed one.  Highly recommend open MRI machines.

You would have to control for reaction to enclosed spaces and noise and get a group that responds similarly just to the experience of an MRI….which they may have done.

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7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This makes me want to cancel my appointment at the end of the month. 

Just had mine.  Absolutely no problem…the hardest part was getting the key in the lock for my clothes locker without my glasses on.  Check beforehand to see what they do to make you comfortable.  They should be calling you to confirm and answer any questions…write them down if you think you might forget.

I enjoyed it, would have fallen asleep if I wasn’t on my back (can’t sleep in that position).  I assume even closed MRIs are much better than they used to be if only to save time in having to repeat.  If not, I would suggest a eye mask you are used to, a plain hand towel to roll up beneath your neck for support and a pillow with no zipper or metallic thread for under your legs.  And ask for a warm blanket.  Take foam ear plugs if they don’t give you a headset (I hear everyone does these days).  And if you have a muscle relaxant or something else that helps with anxiety, take it long enough beforehand so it is at its peak…if you have someone to drive you and with permission from your doctor (don’t want it to interfere with the test whatever it is for).  You could even ask your doctor for one.  Like I said above, the tech who did mine says clients fall asleep all the time.  My own doctor who sent me said he did.

Take a number of deep breaths before they send you in to relax and close your eyes first and just try and pretend you are in your dark bedroom at night with nothing to do but rest.  Don’t open your eyes once you are in it if you can help it.  Take deep breaths when needed or between takes assuming they are doing multiple shots.  If you are listening to music, choose something pleasant and relaxing and familiar enough you know the words to the songs and sing along in your mind.  That keeps your mind busy so it hopefully won’t get nervous.  Come up beforehand with stuff you enjoy thinking about if that doesn’t work…like planning a Christmas party or choosing what presents you would get people if money was no object or a trip you would go on in an RV if that would be fun and then think of everything you would need to pack, what you would bring for meals, clothes, etc.  Iow, plan ahead of time with something that is interesting and fun enough to keep you occupied, but doesn’t cause anxiety.  Maybe even something you are actually going to do and need to plan so your mind is more committed to keeping engaged.  But something easy and no stress.  If that doesn’t work, try counting backwards from 100.  Or just count breaths.  Maybe try these breathing exercises beforehand if you don’t already do relaxation techniques to see which works the best for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/abdominal-breathing-2584115

Good luck.

Edited by Calm
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On 11/5/2022 at 3:14 PM, Tacenda said:

9/11 ...

And if I argue, as I think I can, persuasively, that 9/11 was perpetrated in the service of a perversion of Islam rather than in the service of Islam itself (and the same argument can be used, persuasively, regarding many atrocities that religion's detractors claim were perpetrated in the name of the religion's [putative] adherents), you would say ... ?

 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Interesting suggestion. I was in an MRI yesterday and I had the intent to turn my brain off, the noise definitely helped me do that (I think perhaps similar to what a washing machine can do for a baby; try it though always hold on to the infant seat they are in just in case it vibrates off, both the vibration and the noise can quiet them…though not all the time; my guess is it is similar to a weighted blanket, the surrounding constant stimulation causes a shutdown).  The tech said she had to wake up clients all the time.  Her making sure her clients are as comfortable as they can be no doubt helped.  She had prepared an air mattress inflated just enough for back and neck support, placed pillows for arms and legs to relax while staying in position, supplied a warm blanket, and provided a comfortable set of headphones with my chosen music.  My first MRI, the tech just had me lay down on the slab and pushed the button, I wanted to move just to get comfortable; it was also a closed one.  Highly recommend open MRI machines.

You would have to control for reaction to enclosed spaces and noise and get a group that responds similarly just to the experience of an MRI….which they may have done.

Our MRI'S are closed.

 

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On 11/5/2022 at 6:30 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

This sentiment seems false. In the Old Testament we have a God that condones chattel slavery. In the 19th century we have a God that has the exact same racist views as the prophet Brigham Young. I’m not sure it’s just modern people that invent God in their own image. It sure seems to me that prophets have been doing that since the dawn of time. So when you worship the God revealed by prophets, that’s fine, you’re just worshiping the God the prophet created in his image instead of the one that you would make up. 

Fallen world, fallen people, fallen problems, fallen thinking, fallen attitudes and the need to not override agency result in only a slow evolution across a broad front over time scales of centuries and millennia.

Methinks were better off than than the 19th century and way better off than OT times.

Why not magic away fallenness?

Its has its purpose, it's the opposition in all things necessary to advance spirits at an accelerated pace in the mortal sphere.

 

Why couldn't some of that perceived opposition come from within and test our faith more deeply and broadly to bring about even greater maturity?

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On 11/6/2022 at 10:11 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I don’t need science to deal with this question. I just need my conscience and a conflicted belief. You said no examples, but really that’s where the rubber meets the road, so for example with polygamy so many saints had to put away their moral qualms to accept polygamy. What was the good and bad of that process of accepting?

Abrahamic test? If we want to sit down next to Abraham we all need to pass through that fire.

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On 11/6/2022 at 10:33 PM, Benjamin McGuire said:

I think that this would be quite difficult to do - why? Because we have very little in Mormonism that reflects any sort of discussion about the basis for morality or ethics. The strongest threads seem to me to come out of Divine Command Theory. But we run into problems there because we also recognize the challenge that occurs when the moral difference between Person 1 and Person 2 making the same actions is determined only by whether or not they had received instruction from God. For example, I do not believe that the Abraham test was actually whether or not Abraham had the 'faith' to sacrifice Isaac on the altar - it was whether or not he had the personal conviction to tell God 'No'. (This is not just a personal view - there are a lot of Jewish commentaries over the centuries that have argued that Abraham failed this test of his faith). Yet, try to bring this up in a Sunday School class, and see how much resistance you encounter. A common theme that the LDS Church argues is the best method to determining if that prompting is genuine is to see how it compares with earlier revelation:

I see little in the scant information we do have to advance the failure and "No" hypothesis. I do see evidence for the promise of posterity and that Isaac was the vehicle. At minimum, after finally getting the promised heir, it's not hard to see that one of the aspects of the test would be creating new uncertainty over something that had been such a persistent trial before the arrival of the promised heir. Add to that what we learn of Abraham's own experience under the knife and the crucible would be excruciating.

And God explicitly says:

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

 

Multiple times isaac is alluded to as the only son and therefore the only vehicle for the fulfilment of the Abrahamic covenant. I see more evidence for a pass than a fail in the quoted verse.

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I'm thinking that belief in religious or spiritual principles is more a feeling than a justification -- and begins very early with the initial introduction of the concept. The desire to believe precedes the desire to justify the belief, which is usually undertaken once one begins applying the belief in everyday living. I would say an attention-getting impulse precedes that desire to believe.

Edited by CV75
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On 11/4/2022 at 8:50 AM, Benjamin Seeker said:

In dealing with a difficult subject, many church members gradually overcome the issues they have with it, and through an intellectual and spiritual process they come to a belief that it was in line with the will of God. Common problematic issues in Mormonism include polygamy and the abuses therein, the priesthood ban, the church’s recent policy that excluded the children of same gender couples from full participation, and the absence of full female participation in church leadership. Having been told these are or were the will of God or that they were the result of revelation, many though not all come to a belief that they were God-given or at the very least, resolved by God. For some, this process comes easily and for others it’s an arduous long fought struggle. 
 

This thread is an invitation to debate the pros and cons of this way of thinkng and forming belief. 

Facts and truths are the foundation of sound reasoning. When we ignore the facts because they are "difficult" all we are doing is rationalizing. We are attempting to fabricate an explanation, we are abandoning logic and rational analysis in favor of contorted fable in order to protect our ideological, theological, emotional....fill in the blank...position. It is purely a defense mechanism. Because facing and accepting the facts, for some, carry a significant cost. When we abandon facts and truth we just step into the realm of supposition and speculation to hold on to our position. The alternative would be quite painful.

Cheers.

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On 11/10/2022 at 5:46 AM, gav said:

Multiple times isaac is alluded to as the only son and therefore the only vehicle for the fulfilment of the Abrahamic covenant. I see more evidence for a pass than a fail in the quoted verse.

While preferring not to get into the debate here over the nature of the Abrahamic covenant and its application to both Ishmael and Isaac, I want to note that this is all irrelevant to the question of whether Abraham should have attempted to sacrifice his son on the altar. So I simply assume that this is more or less the kind of resistance I anticipated in my comments.

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On 11/9/2022 at 11:56 PM, Calm said:

Just had mine.  Absolutely no problem…the hardest part was getting the key in the lock for my clothes locker without my glasses on.  Check beforehand to see what they do to make you comfortable.  They should be calling you to confirm and answer any questions…write them down if you think you might forget.

I enjoyed it, would have fallen asleep if I wasn’t on my back (can’t sleep in that position).  I assume even closed MRIs are much better than they used to be if only to save time in having to repeat.  If not, I would suggest a eye mask you are used to, a plain hand towel to roll up beneath your neck for support and a pillow with no zipper or metallic thread for under your legs.  And ask for a warm blanket.  Take foam ear plugs if they don’t give you a headset (I hear everyone does these days).  And if you have a muscle relaxant or something else that helps with anxiety, take it long enough beforehand so it is at its peak…if you have someone to drive you and with permission from your doctor (don’t want it to interfere with the test whatever it is for).  You could even ask your doctor for one.  Like I said above, the tech who did mine says clients fall asleep all the time.  My own doctor who sent me said he did.

Take a number of deep breaths before they send you in to relax and close your eyes first and just try and pretend you are in your dark bedroom at night with nothing to do but rest.  Don’t open your eyes once you are in it if you can help it.  Take deep breaths when needed or between takes assuming they are doing multiple shots.  If you are listening to music, choose something pleasant and relaxing and familiar enough you know the words to the songs and sing along in your mind.  That keeps your mind busy so it hopefully won’t get nervous.  Come up beforehand with stuff you enjoy thinking about if that doesn’t work…like planning a Christmas party or choosing what presents you would get people if money was no object or a trip you would go on in an RV if that would be fun and then think of everything you would need to pack, what you would bring for meals, clothes, etc.  Iow, plan ahead of time with something that is interesting and fun enough to keep you occupied, but doesn’t cause anxiety.  Maybe even something you are actually going to do and need to plan so your mind is more committed to keeping engaged.  But something easy and no stress.  If that doesn’t work, try counting backwards from 100.  Or just count breaths.  Maybe try these breathing exercises beforehand if you don’t already do relaxation techniques to see which works the best for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/abdominal-breathing-2584115

Good luck.

Love these suggestions Calm. I guess I'll use them in another situation, I reached out to a neurologist to get an idea if I should get a less intense x-ray like the ct scan. I guess he thinks neither really determine Alzheimer's. So for now I've cancelled my MRI appointment. 

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