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Bom Geography Theory Survey


BoM Geography Theories  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. For those of you who believe in the historicity (to one degree or another) of the Book of Mormon, where do you think it took place?

    • Mesoamerica (Sorenson/Gardner models)
      30
    • North America
      14
    • Agnostic/No opinion
      16
    • Other
      3

This poll is closed to new votes


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1 minute ago, L.E. Hills said:

Hi,

I prefer the Louis E. Hills' model. You can find my books with the Mesoamerican maps scanned online by Google, at HathiTrust.org. 

I wrote three books on the subject starting in 1917, before being struck and killed by an automobile near my home in Independence, MO, in June 1925.

The books were scanned at Princeton University, the Library of Congress and at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

The last link below is to a page in my book showing how the original Hill Cumorah was located in Mexico. Thus the Two Cumorah theory.

Ever since Dr. John L. Sorenson reached the Spirit World, I've been berating him for copying my work without giving me the credit as the original creator.

Of course, we both disagree with the Prophet Joseph Smith, like the good little Book of Mormon believers that we are.

The Prophet, laughably, through Oliver Cowdery's eight letters, some of which are noted in the footnotes of the JSH in that LDS Pearl of Great Price, stated that the original Hill Cumorah with its final Jaredite and Nephite battles, was located in New York. But we know that's a false story. Early members of the new original Church just called that little hill, which is a drumlin or a mere pile of gravel, out of tradition, the "Hill Cumorah," then Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery went along with it to not disturb their faith. You can find those silly Church letters at Joseph Smith Papers using this shortened link: https://tinyurl.com/JSPapersLetterVII

Letter IV also states that the Book of Mormon was both written and deposited near the Prophet Joseph Smith's home. But we know that's demonstrably false, because the latest LDS Book of Mormon video depicts the Prophet Moroni, aging as he goes until he encounters that useless drumlin in New York. Then after some 34 years carrying the heavy gold plates and the Urim and Thummim, neither were needed to translate the Book of Mormon using a rock in a hat.

 

Today groups in Indepedence, Missouri such as The Hill Cumorah Expedition Team .org or HCETI.org and Book of Mormon Foundation or BOMF.org, also promote my work which I created shortly after Word War I. The former has been taking annual expeditions to Mexico in search of the Lost Hill Cumorah since about the year 2001.

Here's a link to my 1917 stand-alone map. I made two zinc etchings and presented them to the RLDS church in a Priesthood meeting when I was a member of their First Quorum of The Seventy.

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1917map

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1917mapArticle

Here are shortened links to each of my three books. I hope you each enjoy seeing how well they were plagiarized by your wonderful LDS Scholars, who born long after my death.

Like stupid little grandchildren who can't keep track of family history and wouldn't know their Grandparents in a family photograph from the milkman.  Have a nice Book of Mormon geography day!

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1918book

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1918map

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1919book

https://tinyurl.com/Hills1919Map

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1924book

https://tinyurl.com/LEHills1924bookM2C

 

Ooooooooookay. Thank you for the links and the unresolved generational resentment.

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10 minutes ago, L.E. Hills said:

Thanks for not believing in the Prophet Joseph Smith and promoting my fake Book of Mormon geography!

😆 Tell Meldrum I say hi.

Edited by OGHoosier
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I'm a fan of mesoamerica for mineralogical reasons. The ores as mentioned in the BoM are found in the right places and it's not easy to find the ores mentioned by Nephi just anywhere in the world which also have evidence of ancient mines and surface workings.

Also the BoM is very clear about the deforestation of "the land northward" which the nephites later called desolation. They attributed it to the large population that had lived there and there is substantial evidence for the deforestation of the province of Oaxaca due to incorrect intensive agricultural practices that lead to the loss of topsoil and permanent damage to soil profiles rendering them incapable of supporting the forests they previously did. Oaxaca is in exactly the right place for the land of desolation. The denuding of the landscape can be carbon dated by the sediment deposits and these dates match favourably to the times of the Jaredites.

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I am not attached to any location. But I find the Great Lakes, Midwest and down to the Mississippi delta to be intriguing. Lots of Ore and copper smithing in parts of the upper and lower Midwest dating during the Nephite times. Hopewell civilization has been dated to similar time frames (not exact). They had some significant cities. Several other tribes are dated even earlier in this region that could have been the Jaredites.  
 

Edited by Ragerunner
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On 11/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, OGHoosier said:

I am sorry to have brought this upon you 

They're back ...

Or perhaps I should have written 'he'?

I note that the various blogs linked to by our one-post drive-bys are all the work of a single man: jonathan3d, who claims on one of his 36(!) blogs that 'the Gospel Topics Essays, the Saints book, Book of Mormon Central, and the Ensign openly teach things that, in past generations, were taught only by critics and apostates'.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

They're back ...

Or perhaps I should have written 'he'?

I note that the various blogs linked to by our one-post drive-bys are all the work of a single man: jonathan3d, who claims on one of his 36(!) blogs that 'the Gospel Topics Essays, the Saints book, Book of Mormon Central, and the Ensign openly teach things that, in past generations, were taught only by critics and apostates'.

It is Jonathan Neville (his picture is in the “about” section and see one here https://interpreterfoundation.org/author/jonathann/ ) though the style is his from what I remember and he is known for prolific posting in this topic, so I was pretty sure even before I checked.  My guess is the posters are all him, but I suppose he could have persuaded some friends to come along with him. 

Edited by Calm
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On 11/28/2022 at 4:41 PM, OGHoosier said:

I am sorry to have brought this upon you 

You couldn’t have known.  I don’t believe we have attracted Jonathan Neville’s attention before, so why would anyone think  it might happen this time?  Must have been looking for new material.

Edited by Calm
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27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks. Is this someone I should have heard of?

If you were into the Heartland stuff, maybe.  I am not that familiar with him.  I think he is best known for claims about where Zarahemla is.

Edited by Calm
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I've spent time in Belize, Guatemala, and Peru.  I've also been to Egypt, have ran around quite a few pyramids :)

The sites in Israel definitely line up with what is in the Bible

For the Bom, I'm going with "non-literal" enjoyment of it.  Non-literal, in that I see the indigenous peoples of the Americas as originating in Africa, Bering Strait, Beringia.  There are quite a few things in the Bible I see as "non-literal" as well, most people are no longer young-earth creationists, most people do not believe an actual flood happened, "parables" are still great starting points for conversations through, so just because it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't a great story.

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6 hours ago, pondering said:

I've spent time in Belize, Guatemala, and Peru.  I've also been to Egypt, have ran around quite a few pyramids :)

The sites in Israel definitely line up with what is in the Bible

For the Bom, I'm going with "non-literal" enjoyment of it.  Non-literal, in that I see the indigenous peoples of the Americas as originating in Africa, Bering Strait, Beringia.  There are quite a few things in the Bible I see as "non-literal" as well, most people are no longer young-earth creationists, most people do not believe an actual flood happened, "parables" are still great starting points for conversations through, so just because it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't a great story.

Regarding the origins of indigenous peoples relative to what the Book of Mormon actually says and implies,  rather than what what some "supposed" (see 3 Nephi 15:17, 22-23 as well as D&C 1:24-28 for key relevant cautions) I would recommend the following, at least.

Brant Gardner's A Social History of the Early Nephites

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/conference/august-2001/a-social-history-of-the-early-nephites

Matt Roper's Nephi's Neighbors

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/msr/vol15/iss2/8/

Matt Roper and John Gee on implications of Jacob's use of Isaiah on "I will lift up my hand unto the Gentiles..." (2 Nephi 6:6-7)and "the Gentiles shall be blessed and numbered among the house of Israel, Wherefore I will consecrate this land unto thy seen and and them who shall be numbered among thy see, forever for the land of their inheritance..." (2 Nephi 10:18)

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/i-did-liken-all-scriptures-unto-us-early-nephite-understandings-isaiah-implications-others

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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Question for you all . . . I have often wondered and searched around a bit with no success . . . I find it interesting that the early LDS colonies here in Chihuahua form a virtual circle around Paquimé - the UNESCO World Heritage Site that sits about twenty minutes from my house. Draw a circle around Dublan, Juarez, Guadalupe, Pacheco, and Garcia. What is in the middle of the circle? Paquimé! The two lakes built by the Guadalupe and Dublan pioneers sit almost directly east of Paquimé, whose origin and destiny has been hotly debated by scholars. There is a lot of recent 20th and 21st century speculation that Francisco Ibarra followed the northward flowing San Miguel River (the one 15 meters from where I am writing this and infrequently covering my patio) directly north to Paquimé from the Babicora Valley in the middle of which sits Chuichupa, the most beautiful (in my humble opinion) of all the late 19th century LDS colonies.

In the early dedicatory prayers by Moses Thatcher, George Teasdale and others, there is rather frequent mention of the Lamanites. From the original site (1885) of Colonia Juarez which is now Colonia Cuauhtemoc (the folks had to relocate in 1886), it is a direct line of site and less than 5 miles to Paquimé. The 19th and early 20th century pioneers used what we call the Pueblito site on Cerro Moctezuma (a part of the Paquimé site) as a lookout site against revolutionaries, rebels, and the like.

I guess the chronology of Paquimé is too late to correlate to any BOM dates, but I have been to many a secular conference where the folks still debate its (Paquimé's) chronology, especially that of DiPeso. Anyone ever hear of any LDS colony-Paquimé-BOM connections? I guess we are too far north for the traditionalists and too far south for the northernists! I am just asking my esteemed colleagues in this forum!

My wife and I have hosted BYU anthropology/archaeology students and professors here in our home for a US-style home-cooked meal on several occasions. They come to our area to dig every summer. I acknowledge I know virtually nothing about what I am asking. I have simply often thought it an interesting speculation. The church, via its Colonization Company bought all the original land for the colonies in each of these locations - over 500,000 hectares! Hmm! They have been fighting the ejiditarios ever since! Best to all.

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17 hours ago, Navidad said:

Question for you all . . . I have often wondered and searched around a bit with no success . . . I find it interesting that the early LDS colonies here in Chihuahua form a virtual circle around Paquimé - the UNESCO World Heritage Site that sits about twenty minutes from my house. Draw a circle around Dublan, Juarez, Guadalupe, Pacheco, and Garcia. What is in the middle of the circle? Paquimé! The two lakes built by the Guadalupe and Dublan pioneers sit almost directly east of Paquimé, whose origin and destiny has been hotly debated by scholars. There is a lot of recent 20th and 21st century speculation that Francisco Ibarra followed the northward flowing San Miguel River (the one 15 meters from where I am writing this and infrequently covering my patio) directly north to Paquimé from the Babicora Valley in the middle of which sits Chuichupa, the most beautiful (in my humble opinion) of all the late 19th century LDS colonies.

In the early dedicatory prayers by Moses Thatcher, George Teasdale and others, there is rather frequent mention of the Lamanites. From the original site (1885) of Colonia Juarez which is now Colonia Cuauhtemoc (the folks had to relocate in 1886), it is a direct line of site and less than 5 miles to Paquimé. The 19th and early 20th century pioneers used what we call the Pueblito site on Cerro Moctezuma (a part of the Paquimé site) as a lookout site against revolutionaries, rebels, and the like.

I guess the chronology of Paquimé is too late to correlate to any BOM dates, but I have been to many a secular conference where the folks still debate its (Paquimé's) chronology, especially that of DiPeso. Anyone ever hear of any LDS colony-Paquimé-BOM connections? I guess we are too far north for the traditionalists and too far south for the northernists! I am just asking my esteemed colleagues in this forum!

My wife and I have hosted BYU anthropology/archaeology students and professors here in our home for a US-style home-cooked meal on several occasions. They come to our area to dig every summer. I acknowledge I know virtually nothing about what I am asking. I have simply often thought it an interesting speculation. The church, via its Colonization Company bought all the original land for the colonies in each of these locations - over 500,000 hectares! Hmm! They have been fighting the ejiditarios ever since! Best to all.

Just fyi, this is probably over the heads of everyone here.  But I hope I am wrong.

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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just fyi, this is probably over the heads of everyone here.  But I hope I am wrong.

Well, sometimes I write things that are over my own head, too! Although, some years ago my friend Patrick Mason introduced me to a group of Mormon historians as "the Mennonite guru of Mormon Mexican history!" That had a nice ring to it! Ha! 🙃

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On 12/7/2022 at 6:52 PM, Nemesis said:

Just fyi all the heart lander supporters in this thread were 1 person with about 12 sock puppets I had to kill.  
 

Nemesis

Ooh, whatever, but I love your new avatar, Nemesis! Looks positively wicked!

Edited by Stargazer
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