bluebell Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Sorry, I should have mentioned. Both are out of the church. And I should have said half the horse's mouth, since we don't have reps from the church, that would be nice I guess. So I'm thinking it may be a waste of time and old news, myself. Maybe I shouldn't have even posted it. But it could give people a chance to dispel their comments. Or respond back the facts if they don't give facts. Oh, and I should have mentioned before your having to check it, it's Simon Southerton and Neville Rochow from the video in the topic. Thanks for the added info. I think it's fine that you posted it. I feel like, with the double whammy of them being on Mormon Stories and also being ex members, that I can probably tell what their thoughts are about all of this without having to listen. 1 Link to comment
smac97 Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 42 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Hoping this is okay, haven't listened yet, but thought some of you would be interested to hear what these two Australians say. Sorry it has to be from the MS's website. Trying to be discrete because of the board's dislike of JD. But is this worth sharing if it means it could provide their side? And a great way to argue against as well, by way of arguing to the horse's mouth. https://Mormon*******.***/podcast/mormon-church-tax-scandal-in-australia/ Could you sum up? I'm not really inclined to spent 2 hours listening to the interview. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
smac97 Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, bluebell said: Full disclosure, I'm not going to watch the podcast. I generally dislike podcasts and rarely watch or listen to them. My experience with the mormon stories ones is such that I'm not going to make an exception now. But I do wonder, are these Australians adversarial to the church or are they believing members (or neutral nonmembers)? The interviewees are Simon Southerton and Neville Rochow, both former members and currently very antagonistic toward the Church. Thanks, -Smac 2 Link to comment
smac97 Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) On 11/8/2022 at 10:45 AM, bluebell said: Thanks for the added info. I think it's fine that you posted it. I feel like, with the double whammy of them being on Mormon Stories and also being ex members, that I can probably tell what their thoughts are about all of this without having to listen. I sure wish Dehlin was a better interviewer. Listening to his meandering style, his (deliberately) ignorant musings and interjections, is such a slog. It sure would be nice if there were transcripts or written summaries of these interviews. But then MS is a money-making venture for Dehlin, so while eyes-on-YouTube will garner him $$$, people reading transcripts/summaries will not. Thanks, -Smac Edited November 22, 2022 by smac97 Link to comment
bluebell Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, smac97 said: The interviewees are Simon Southerton and Neville Rochow, both former members and currently very antagonistic toward the Church. Thanks, -Smac Do they have any expertise in tax laws in Australia or anything like that? I'm wondering what the purpose is of interviewing two people who will be critical of the church no matter what the topic is? What do their opinions add to the subject? It seems like the equivalent of going out and interviewing California republicans about Nancy Pelosi. 2 Link to comment
Thinking Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 On 10/27/2022 at 5:26 PM, smac97 said: Oh. It's legal. So the point of the article is . . . what? Is legal all that matters? There are plenty of things that are legal that the Church doesn't participate in. Link to comment
Stormin' Mormon Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 10 minutes ago, Thinking said: Is legal all that matters? There are plenty of things that are legal that the Church doesn't participate in. When it comes to the payment of taxes, then yes. The law is the ONLY thing that defines what is right and wrong in that particular arena. There is a moral status to many actions regardless of the law. But the duty to pay taxes is defined by the law itself; there is no right or wrong there other than what is legal and illegal. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted November 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: But it could give people a chance to dispel their comments. Oh, this is too easy! I literally just picked a random point in the video, starting at 27:20. Mr Rochow: Quote The numbers that they're talking about could not possibly, on any view of the world, come from the Australian Saints. That level of donation is just not possible of the, say, 30-to-50,000 tithe payers that there are. And so, clearly, the money that is being claimed in that documentation is coming from the local church -- just is not coming from the local church [he clarifies] -- and so any tax deduction that is claimed on the basis that local Mormons are that generous has a big question mark over it, and the question mark attached to a question is: where did the money really come from? It cannot have come from Australian Latter-day Saints. It just cannot have done. The documentation referred to is shown in the video a few seconds earlier and indicates donations of $93 million last financial year. I'm starting to wonder if these people are functionally innumerate (or just blinded by their bitterness?). $93 million divided by an average of Mr Rochow's own '30-to-50,000 tithe payers' is $2,325 per tithe payer, suggesting an average income of only $23,250 per year. I agree that's not possible, especially since the median income in Australia is $41,860 per year! In fact, assuming that all Aussie tithe payers earn a median wage and calculate tithing based on gross, it would require donations from only 22,217 of them to reach $93,000,000. ($4,186 x 22,217 = $93,000,362.) This is painfully embarrassing for a man who apparently works as a barrister ... And even more embarrassing for any 'journalist' who has taken these kinds of claims seriously! Seriously, just do the maths. Edited November 8, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 6 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Oh, this is too easy! I literally just picked a random point in the video, starting at 27:20. Mr Rochow: The documentation referred to is shown in the video a few seconds earlier and indicates donations of $93 million last financial year. I'm starting to wonder if these people are functionally innumerate (or just blinded by their bitterness?). $93 million divided by Mr Rochow's own average of '30-to-50,000 tithe payers' is $2,325 per tithe payer, suggesting an average income of only $23,250 per year. I agree that's not possible, especially since the median income in Australia is $41,860 per year! In fact, assuming that all Aussie tithe payers earn a median wage and calculate tithing based on gross, it would require donations from only 22,217 of them to reach $93,000,000. ($4,186 x 22,217 = $93,000,362.) This is painfully embarrassing for a man who apparently works as a barrister ... And even more embarrassing for any 'journalist' who has taken these kinds of claims seriously! Seriously, just do the maths. Thanks for the feedback. I'm at work and was only able to get partway and do remember that part. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said: But the duty to pay taxes is defined by the law itself; there is no right or wrong there other than what is legal and illegal. I often wonder if the people who ask this kind of 'gotcha' question choose not to declare eligible deductions on their own income tax filings to demonstrate their 'moral' superiority ... 2 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I often wonder if the people who ask this kind of 'gotcha' question choose not to declare eligible deductions on their own income tax filings to demonstrate their 'moral' superiority ... I don't know what people expect. I certainly am not surprised that the church does as much as possible to reduce its own and its members' tax burden. Seems like common sense. I guess I'm not bitter enough. I'll have to work on that. 2 Link to comment
Stormin' Mormon Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I often wonder if the people who ask this kind of 'gotcha' question choose not to declare eligible deductions on their own income tax filings to demonstrate their 'moral' superiority ... I was thinking the same thing just a few minutes ago. Would I be considered immoral because I take the standard deduction, even though by doing so, I am over-estimating the magnitude of my tax-deductible activities? Should I itemize my deductions instead? And If I do so, which deductions should I include and which ones should I exclude? 1 Link to comment
Analytics Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) The Law of Tithing used to be that you should give 10% of your income to the Church. Now, the Law of Tithing is, apparently, that you should give 10% of your money to the Church if you happen to live in a country where donations to churches are tax deductible. If you live elsewhere, you don't have to give money to the Church. Rather, the Law of Tithing states that you are commanded to give 10% of your money to a non-religious, tax-deductible charity. Was there a revelation to modify the Law of Tithing in this way? Edited November 8, 2022 by Analytics Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Analytics said: Otherwise, you don't have to give money to the Church. Rather, you give money to a tax-deductible, non-religious Charity. Australian Saints still give their tithing money directly to the Church, and the Church's charity is clearly religiously affiliated. There is nothing in Australian law requiring registered gift recipients to be 'non-religious'. You're going to need to work on your gotchas ... Edited November 8, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan Link to comment
Analytics Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Australian Saints still give their tithing money directly to the Church. You're going to need to work on your gotchas ... So, in Australia the Church claims it isn't a religion, but rather is a tax-deductible charity? Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, Analytics said: So, in Australia the Church claims it isn't a religion, but rather is a tax-deductible charity? Link to comment
Analytics Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: My understanding is that donations to religions aren't tax-deductible in Australia. Am I wrong about that? So what's the secret for Mormon tithing being tax-deductible in Australia? Is it because Mormons pay tithing to a legal entity other than the Church, or is it because the Church claims that the Church in Australia isn't really Church? -1 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted November 8, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Analytics said: My understanding is that donations to religions aren't tax-deductible in Australia. Am I wrong about that? Yes, dead wrong. What determines whether a donation is tax deductible in Australia is what those donations are used for, not the recipient. Before the Church adjusted its affairs around 2014, 75 per cent of tithing paid to the Church was tax deductible because the Australian Tax Office had determined that 75 per cent of what the Church did with Australian tithing qualified. Now 100 per cent of what the Church does with Australian tithing qualifies. Quote So what's the secret for Mormon tithing being tax-deductible in Australia? Is it because Mormons pay tithing to a legal entity other than the Church, or is it because the Church claims that the Church in Australia isn't really Church? Mate, you need to try harder to live up to your screen name ... Aussie Saints pay tithing to the Church. The Church then uses some portion of that tithing (theoretically, it need only be 25 per cent) to fund its affiliated charity, which then uses 100 per cent of its funds for overseas humanitarian aid projects, thus satisfying all tax rules and eligibility requirements. This is so simple, but critics appear to be hell-bent on seeing something else entirely ('is it because the Church claims that the Church isn't really a church'?!). In any other world, complaining that the Church is using some (or even all?) of Australian Saints' tithing to provide, for example, clean water projects in Africa (and does so without any paid staff) would be risible. But apostates can't be pleased. Critics: The evil Church has too much money and should use some of its tithing to alleviate sickness and poverty! The Church: We used $93 million of tithing from Australia last year to alleviate sickness and poverty. Critics: There's no way you have that much money in Australia! You're cooking the books! Also critics: And why is your charity run exclusively by volunteers? The Church: That's how we like to do things. Our members are generous with their time as well as their money, and most of our work globally is accomplished by unpaid volunteers. Critics: No! People with real qualifications demand to be paid! It must be a 'shell' organisation! [Cue sinister music ...] Edited November 8, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 5 Link to comment
Analytics Posted November 8, 2022 Author Share Posted November 8, 2022 48 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: The Church: We used $93 million of tithing from Australia last year to alleviate sickness and poverty. According to 60 Minutes, the 60,000 Ausie Mormons generate $93 million in charity, while the other 16,000,000 Mormons in the world only generate a combined $25 million for charity. That doesn't seem inconsistent to you? If I did my math right, that is $1,550 of charity for each Australian Mormon, but less than $2 of charity for each non-Ausie Mormon. Why does the Church use Australian tithing so differently than everybody else's? Don't get me wrong--I think it is great what the Church is doing with the tithing of Ausies. I'm just wondering why it doesn't do the same thing with everybody else's tithing? I was taught that tithing was used to build up the Kingdom of God. It's great that Australian tithing goes towards alleviating sickness and poverty, but I'm wondering if Australian Saints are missing out on blessings by not contributing to building up the Kingdom of God. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Analytics said: According to 60 Minutes, the 60,000 Ausie Mormons generate $93 million in charity, while the other 16,000,000 Mormons in the world only generate a combined $25 million for charity. That doesn't seem inconsistent to you? When I consider the sum total of demonstrably false statements, misleading innuendos, and impossible leaps of logic in the 60 Minutes segment -- nearly all of which could have been cleared up with 30 minutes of Googling and/or a quick phone call to the Church -- I'm disinclined to believe that this set of TV producers somehow has the inside scoop on how much Latter-day Saints around the world generate in charitable donations. I don't think it's a secret, however, that the Church has arranged its financial affairs in Australia specifically to increase what portion of tithing is tax deductible. The Church has gone so far as to make submissions to the Australian government urging that all charitable donations be tax deductible, including for all other faith groups and charities. Clearly, it accepts the social value of charitable giving as a principle. And its current approach, it should be remembered, has overt government approval. The tax office that previously assessed only 75 per cent of tithing to meet the criteria for deductibility is the same tax office that has assessed 100 per cent of tithing to meet those criteria now. The Church isn't coming up with those figures. Quote It's great that Australian tithing goes towards alleviating sickness and poverty, but I'm wondering if Australian Saints are missing out on blessings by not contributing to building up the Kingdom of God. There is no way in hell that this is what you are worried about! Edited November 9, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, smac97 said: The interviewees are Simon Southerton and Neville… I believe they have been the ones driving this from the beginning, so my guess is we have already heard/read their side in the news articles and shows on this issue. Edited November 9, 2022 by Calm 3 Link to comment
Calm Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 “I was taught that tithing was used to build up the Kingdom of God. It's great that Australian tithing goes towards alleviating sickness and poverty, but I'm wondering if Australian Saints are missing out on blessings by not contributing to building up the Kingdom of God.” Why would you think that helping those in need is not part of building the Kingdom of God? 3 Link to comment
Stormin' Mormon Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Why would you think that helping those in need is not part of building the Kingdom of God? Indeed. It's a full 25% of the four-fold mission of the church. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Analytics said: The Law of Tithing used to be that you should give 10% of your income to the Church. Now, the Law of Tithing is, apparently, that you should give 10% of your money to the Church if you happen to live in a country where donations to churches are tax deductible. If you live elsewhere, you don't have to give money to the Church. Rather, the Law of Tithing states that you are commanded to give 10% of your money to a non-religious, tax-deductible charity. Was there a revelation to modify the Law of Tithing in this way? Where the heck are you getting this from? This makes no sense. The money is given to the Church, the Trust Fund is owned by the Church and is a part of the Church just as is LDS Charities, etc. The Church choosing to give the tithing money to charity in Australia is no different than when they use tithing money to cover administrative costs and other things for humanitarian purposes, including providing education through BYU (which includes Pathways). Edited November 9, 2022 by Calm 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Analytics said: My understanding is that donations to religions aren't tax-deductible in Australia. Am I wrong about that? So what's the secret for Mormon tithing being tax-deductible in Australia? Is it because Mormons pay tithing to a legal entity other than the Church, or is it because the Church claims that the Church in Australia isn't really Church? How many times does it need to be said that donations are at least 75% tax deductible to churches? You saying still donations aren’t tax deductible is really hurting your credibility for me (it has been mentioned enough on this thread that not being aware requires a very cursory reading ignoring the documentation which implies you are not trying to be fully or even minimally informed in your criticism). Depending on how money is collected and then how it is dispensed, a specific church may have a percentage of their donations be 100% tax deductible (depends on how they designate a collection and then use it, if it is officially for fundraising for a Designated Gift Recipient or general expenses or something else, receipts must be given for the deduction to be claimed if it is over a certain amount (my memory says $2, but that seems really low, I will get the link when I get home that has the info on it), bank statements can also be used if a charity refuses to give a receipt apparently (read another site, think it is one of the below sites). Added for clarification: you may be able to claim tax deductions on anything over $2, but you need a receipt for anything $10 and over. https://www.littlephil.org/blog/how-to-claim-tax-deductible-donations Edited November 9, 2022 by Calm 2 Link to comment
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