Facts About Mormons That Will Positively Fascinate You

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's the "Mormon" countenance teachings. 

I've literally had someone at work comment on something like that about me.
(And I am NOT a good looking guy).
And despite our claims that we're not different my entirely family have always used expressions like "they look LDS", "obviously members" etc when we see people we think are LDS.
There just seems to be something noticeable about many.

https://universe.byu.edu/2015/04/28/skin-texture-glow-distinguishes-mormons-from-others/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21151864/

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I've literally had someone at work comment on something like that about me.
(And I am NOT a good looking guy).
And despite our claims that we're not different my entirely family have always used expressions like "they look LDS", "obviously members" etc when we see people we think are LDS.
There just seems to be something noticeable about many.

https://universe.byu.edu/2015/04/28/skin-texture-glow-distinguishes-mormons-from-others/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21151864/

I dunno. When I've been around church members at church functions, they always assume I'm an active believer. I don't think I give off that dark, brooding, apostate shade.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I dunno. When I've been around church members at church functions, they always assume I'm an active believer. I don't think I give off that dark, brooding, apostate shade.

It’s all of those years of following the WoW and fasting that gave you such beautiful skin that is throwing people off.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

Lol, it actually saves me money and does just about as well as what I used to do. Plus you just can't do that with curls, you will pay for it with knots and frizz galore.  I can buy a bag of seeds for a couple buck, boils and strain and freeze them into cubes every 2 weeks and I have enough product to last me for several months from that one bag. I've have a hard time finding the right product as my hair is both curly but with a fine texture that hates heavier oils in excess. So where my husband does well rubbing a small amount of straight coconut oil into his locks (we're a family of curls), mine gets paradoxically frizzier if I do the same. If it's not flax, I also have a bottle of aloe vera with no alcohol that does the trick as well for a few days. Most commercial gels dry out my hair after a few applications too and the only thing that comes close to helping was a single brand of mousse. Flaz seed gel actually protects my hair. 

What can I say? I love my curls. So I pamper them  

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

Good for you!  

Seriously, since I am a '60's survivor I have tended towards longer hair than most LDS guys, but now I have just a few strings of grey combed over the top, so I am thinking of just getting out the shaver and saying goodbye to the problem. During Covid and zoomed church, I grew a goatee which my wife loves, so that ain't goin' nowhere!  😁

I have lived in stakes, where,  if you are in leadership, you have to adhere to missionary standards- so no beards; but that's all gone now- most of my hair is now on my chin instead my head, so I just might get out the mower and take ten seconds and get it over with. 

But then my grandkids will REALLY be shocked by my 60's pics with hair down to the middle of my back!

 

 

[Amulek]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Also in my youth I stayed in bed till the last minute and got my shower time down to five minutes. Longest part was waiting for it to heat up. No time to repeat a shampoo there. 

Maybe it was from his time in the military, but my dad always told us we could sleep in later so long as we were able to get up and move fast.

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think you're right.

When the article said:

I think it's a very bad and simplistic interpretation of these verses:

They are following "Moses" (or they are being zealous in a particular faction of religion) "but not Joseph Smith" (not entering into the everlasting covenant).  Of course they miss the whole point, which is about the proper attitude, and having a testimony of Jesus and receiving the gospel.

Elsewhere I found a statement that's just the opposite of what the article says on its surface (it's Bruce R. McConkie, but I'll take him for the moment).  He says that those who keep the law of Moses (with full desire to follow the Lord) WILL inherit the celestial kingdom:

To say his take is simplistic is being charitable. I’d say it’s unfounded, uninformed, and just plain dumb, almost as if he’s intentionally being off-base just to raise the hackles of informed Church members. All he had to do is have a chat with an average bishop to correct his downright bizarre take on Church doctrine to avoid all the inaccuracies and unwarranted flights of fancy he propagated, but that would have meant he’d have to miss out on all the “fun” of twisting Church doctrine a-la of the Book of Mormon Broadway show.

An important point: I’ve learned that nearly all Latter-Day Saints misread and misunderstand much of Doctrine and Covenants 76, especially the verses that deal with the inheritors of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory. Far too many misconstrue what’s actually quite clearly stated and mistakenly presume that zealous devotees of false religion, murderers, whoremongers, and the like, will inherit a mansion of heavenly glory where they will somehow be ministered to by the Holy Ghost, angelic ministrants, and messengers of a higher way life from the terrestrial kingdom. This most assuredly is not so.

A correct reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly indicates that all such sinners on earth with be thrust down to hell ant the time of death, and thereafter suffer for their sins in a most excruciating process called the “winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” where the Savior himself will administer such harsh punishment for sin that their rebellious spirits will finally be overcome to the point of achieving authentic humility and contrition, and at that point they will finally be able to exercise enough faith in Christ to be cleansed of their sins by the infinite and eternal atonement and rendered fit inhabitants for a kingdom of such overwhelming heavenly glory, especially when compared to this fallen world, that it’s wonder and magnificence is far beyond human comprehension..

President Joseph F Smith understood this process well when in Doctrine and Covenants 138 he testified that even the most extreme sinners of this mortal probation, with the exception of the recalcitrant and unrepentant sons of perdition  will need to repent and be cleansed of their sins by Christ before they can inherit the lowest heavenly mansion of post-resurrection glory.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed  clean (an obvious reverence to baptism for the remission of sins), shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Edited October 20, 2022 by teddyaware

[pogi]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

To say his take is simplistic is being charitable. I’d say it’s unfounded, uninformed, and just plain dumb, almost as if he’s intentionally being off-base just to raise the hackles of informed Church members. All he had to do is have a chat with an average bishop to correct his downright bizarre take on Church doctrine to avoid all the inaccuracies and unwarranted flights of fancy he propagated, but that would have meant he’d have to miss out on all the “fun” of twisting Church doctrine a-la of the Book of Mormon Broadway show.

I wouldn't be so sure that it wasn't just an innocent but lazy mistake.  I didn’t get the impression of any nefarious intentions to deceive or ridicule.  Persecution syndrome needs to be checked.  It is not becoming of saints. 

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

An important point: I’ve learned that nearly all Latter-Day Saints misread and misunderstand much of Doctrine and Covenants 76, especially the verses that deal with the inheritors of the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory. Far too many misconstrue what’s actually quite clearly stated and mistakenly presume that zealous devotees of false religion, murderers, whoremongers, and the like, will inherit a mansion of heavenly glory where they will somehow be ministered to by the Holy Ghost, angelic ministrants, and messengers of a higher way life from the terrestrial kingdom. This most assuredly is not so.

A correct reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly indicates that all such sinners on earth with be thrust down to hell ant the time of death, and thereafter suffer for their sins in a most excruciating process called the “winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” where the Savior himself will administer such harsh punishment for sin that their rebellious spirits will finally be overcome to the point of achieving authentic humility and contrition, and at that point they will finally be able to exercise enough faith in Christ to be cleansed of their sins by the infinite and eternal atonement and rendered fit inhabitants for a kingdom of such overwhelming heavenly glory, especially when compared to this fallen world, that it’s wonder and magnificence is far beyond human comprehension..

President Joseph F Smith understood this process well when in Doctrine and Covenants 138 he testified that even the most extreme sinners of this mortal probation, with the exception of the recalcitrant and unrepentant sons of perdition  will need to repent and be cleansed of their sins by Christ before they can inherit the lowest heavenly mansion of post-resurrection glory.

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed  clean (an obvious reverence to baptism for the remission of sins), shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

You suggest that "nearly all" Latter-day Saints misunderstand section 76.  What makes you say that?  The passage clearly states that those who lived such lives in mortality will go there.  They CANNOT go to outer darkness.

My question is this, if they are washed clean, they why are they not saved in a higher degree of glory?   Are you suggesting that every single individual except for the sons of perdition will accept baptism and be washed clean before entry into a degree of glory?  What ever happened to agency?  I think you are misinterpreting D&C 138 in suggesting that all will accept baptism. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have lived in stakes, where,  if you are in leadership, you have to adhere to missionary standards- so no beards...

I have no clue why certain local leaders do things like this. Is it a power trip for them?

I was released from the high council last month and called as elders quorum president. My first counsellor has a beard that comes and goes, and my second counsellor and I both have very manly beards (dating back to my time on the high council). 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

A correct reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly indicates that all such sinners on earth with be thrust down to hell ant the time of death, and thereafter suffer for their sins in a most excruciating process called the “winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” where the Savior himself will administer such harsh punishment for sin that their rebellious spirits will finally be overcome to the point of achieving authentic humility and contrition, and at that point they will finally be able to exercise enough faith in Christ to be cleansed of their sins by the infinite and eternal atonement and rendered fit inhabitants for a kingdom of such overwhelming heavenly glory, especially when compared to this fallen world, that it’s wonder and magnificence is far beyond human comprehension..

Just curious.  Do you believe that administering such harsh punishment for sin your children may commit into submission like you are suggesting Christ will do will work to get them to follow the Savior here on earth?  Has that approach EVER in the history of man made people want to follow leaders that have used such an approach?

Maybe it is you that is reading D&C 76 incorrectly.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Actually coffee and tea have been shown to be good for skin.   Alcohol and smoking - not so much.  It makes sense that because we have more longevity and lower heart disease, etc. our skin could be better on average, I just don't think it would be  consciously perceivable until much later in life.  I don't know why our subconscious would be looking at the skin to identify other Mormons unless we had some foundational conditioning that Mormons have better skin - which we don't.  It is just so weird to me. 

As I understand it,  the Sun is the worst enemy of skin and will cause it to age faster than almost any other source.  So perhaps it is all of those endless meetings indoors that is helping Mormons retain their good skin.

[teddyaware]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

I wouldn't be so sure that it wasn't just an innocent but lazy mistake.  I didn’t get the impression of any nefarious intentions to deceive or ridicule.  Persecution syndrome needs to be checked.  It is not becoming of saints. 

You suggest that "nearly all" Latter-day Saints misunderstand section 76.  What makes you say that?  The passage clearly states that those who lived such lives in mortality will go there.  They CANNOT go to outer darkness.

My question is this, if they are washed clean, they why are they not saved in a higher degree of glory?   Are you suggesting that every single individual except for the sons of perdition will accept baptism and be washed clean before entry into a degree of glory?  What ever happened to agency?  I think you are misinterpreting D&C 138 in suggesting that all will accept baptism. 

Because they refused to change of their own volition without the Lord having to use the most extreme measures to humble them by his Almighty power before they are able to feel true remorse, exercise faith in Christ and sincerely repent. And perhaps you missed the part that says before such people can be redeemed from the devil they must first be thrust down to hell where they suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until, as section 76 says, they are overcome by Christ and no longer accounted as his enemies. And do you actually imagine that God is able to make such people heirs of salvation while they are still in their lost and fallen state, and still polluted with their sins in a state of unredeemed alienation?

Section 76 also testifies that the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost, by angels from the celestial kingdom and by ministers from the terrestrial kingdom who, in turn, are ministered to personally by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Why would God raise the unrepentant wicked to such a kingdom of glory if they are incapable of receiving and enjoying the spiritual blessings and gifts that are found in that kingdom? Remember, in recent General Conferences members of the 15, including President Oaks, have testified that the glory of the telestial kingdom is so great that it is beyond present human comprehension. Why would God give such tremendous spiritual blessings to people who are unable to receive and enjoy such gifts. Remember, the Book of Mormon says God cannot give his gifts and blessings of salvation to people who are unable to willingly receive and enjoy such marvelous gifts.

The bottom line? God cannot save anyone in their sins, and the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are indeed heirs of salvation.

 

 

 

 

Christ and sincerely repents

 

[teddyaware]

11 minutes ago, california boy said:

Just curious.  Do you believe that administering such harsh punishment for sin your children may commit into submission like you are suggesting Christ will do will work to get them to follow the Savior here on earth?  Has that approach EVER in the history of man made people want to follow leaders that have used such an approach?

Maybe it is you that is reading D&C 76 incorrectly.

Doctrine and Covenants clearly and unambiguously testifies that the unrepentant wicked are thrust down to hell at the time of death, and while in hell they suffer “the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.” Why? Because it’s the only way those who are deeply hardened in sin can be ultimately be saved. Would you rather God abandon such people to an endless hell, or place them in a temporary hell until they are contrite and humble enough to exercise faith in Christ be saved in the end. God cannot save anyone in their sins.

[california boy]

Just now, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants clearly and unambiguously testifies that the unrepentant wicked are thrust down to hell at the time of death, and while in hell they suffer “the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.” Why? Because it’s the only way those who are deeply hardened in sin can be ultimately be saved. Would you rather God abandon such people to an endless hell, or place them in a temporary hell until they are contrite and humble enough to exercise faith in Christ be saved in the end. God cannot save anyone in their sins.

I guess that answers my question.  Torture into submission until broken.  

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I've literally had someone at work comment on something like that about me.
(And I am NOT a good looking guy).
And despite our claims that we're not different my entirely family have always used expressions like "they look LDS", "obviously members" etc when we see people we think are LDS.
There just seems to be something noticeable about many.

https://universe.byu.edu/2015/04/28/skin-texture-glow-distinguishes-mormons-from-others/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21151864/

I remember a time eating at a restaurant with active friends I had not been hanging out with much but hanging with other friends that weren't doing what they should, the waiter was entirely rude but said something that made me feel bad, he said, "Oh, you must be the wild one". I wasn't wearing anything risque or anything. So maybe my active LDS friends had that "countenance" and I didn't. I eventually got active again and married in the temple and feel like my insides reflected my outside somehow. I looked a lot better. I have an embarrassing high school picture as well that I look terrible, because I felt terrible inside. So maybe that's why the LDS stand out. They may have less guilt or feel they're living right, can wake up the next day and not worry about anything they'd done the night before, just living a good clean life. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

My question is this, if they are washed clean, they why are they not saved in a higher degree of glory?   Are you suggesting that every single individual except for the sons of perdition will accept baptism and be washed clean before entry into a degree of glory?  What ever happened to agency?

I don't believe that all will accept baptism. And in fact, the Prophet Joseph taught the following:

Quote

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

But it is true that all who inherit a degree of glory will have been washed clean first through the Atonement of Christ (accessed via faith and repentance).

This point is addressed clearly in a 2017 Ensign article 'The Triumph and Glory of the Lamb: Doctrine and Covenants 76 in Its Historical Context':

Quote

To underscore the magnitude of the Lamb’s “triumph and glory,” the language of the Prophet and his counselor again soars in testimony:

“And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

”That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

“That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

“Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition. …

“Wherefore, he saves all except them” (verses 40–44; emphasis added).

Without a clear sense of the religious contexts in which the Smith family and other early Saints lived, we might not grasp the powerful effect of these passages. The verses describing the degrees of glory tease out the details of Christ’s saving work. Viewed from the early Saints’ perspective, the varied, individualized, and multi-tiered heaven of Doctrine and Covenants 76 is notable not so much in its segmented layers but in its breathtaking scope. Near-universal salvation in one of God’s kingdoms of glory is unquestionably the revelation’s priceless legacy.

I also really like the following (which touches on the same issue but from a completely different -- and important -- angle): Christopher J. Porter, '“They Must Suffer Even As I”: Misconceptions concerning Personal Payment for Sin', Religious Educator, 20:1, 2019. Some pertinent quotes:

Quote

Just months before his martyrdom, in the oft-quoted King Follett discourse, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught the purpose of suffering for sin: “So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. If a man has knowledge, he can be saved, although if he has been guilty of great sins he will be punished for them; but when he consents to obey the Gospel, whether here or in the world of spirits, he is saved. . . . All will suffer until they obey Christ himself” ...

Whether in this life or in the next, no amount of suffering on our part will make up for even an iota of transgression—our only hope is that the suffering will lead us to return to our Father with a broken heart so we can be “clasped in the arms of Jesus” (Mormon 5:11). In this way, the postmortal suffering of the wicked will play a similar role as with Alma the Younger, who, after being “harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all [his] sins” (Alma 36:12), was lead to cry, “O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me” (Alma 36:18). Alma’s suffering came to an end because he turned to Christ, not because he satisfied an inherent requirement to suffer for a fixed period of time ...

The word save in this context cannot have reference to the Resurrection because the sons of perdition, who are born in this world, will be resurrected (see Alma 11:44); rather, this scripture teaches that even “liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:103) will eventually be saved from their sins by the Atonement of Christ, on condition of repentance, if they have not committed the unpardonable sin. This is indeed “glad tidings” and testifies of the mercy and love of God toward all his children, even those who live wickedly while on the earth ...

President Joseph F. Smith’s vision of the redemption of the dead further clarifies that those who pay a penalty for transgression after this life are eventually washed clean ...

Perhaps some hesitancy in describing telestial beings as being “spotless” stems from a desire to differentiate them from celestial beings; however, the telestial kingdom is not equal to the celestial kingdom merely because its inhabitants are cleansed from sin. The revelations make it clear that those in the telestial kingdom will not become Gods but “servants of the Most High” (verse 112) and, unlike celestial beings, do not receive of God’s “fulness, and of his glory” (verse 56). No one should seek for the telestial kingdom solely on the premise that their sins will be removed for “where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end” (verse 112). As was the case with the returning prodigal, forgiveness is granted to heirs of the telestial kingdom, but the father’s inheritance is lost.

I had a post on an earlier iteration of this forum that included about a dozen quotes from Latter-day apostles on this topic as well, but it appears to have gone missing at some point.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Torture into submission until broken.  

When parents who have exhausted all other options step away for a brief period and allow petulant children to experience the natural and inescapable consequence of their actions, there is always a risk that the children, in their immaturity, will misconstrue this final act of love as hate-inspired punishment. As all good parents understand, nothing could be further from the truth.

Though it certainly doesn't help matters when Teddy dials up the rhetoric to a 10+, either! (I just went back and read his posts ...)

Edited October 21, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Emily said:

Exactly! There's research on that kind of thing, and other subtle cues that we are capable of noticing that is really fascinating.

I have a friend who is pretty adept at guessing what part of the country you are from based on tiny cues like your use of "soda" vs "pop" and a particularly good ear for accents. It comes with it's drawbacks though, he's so sensitive to this kind of thing, manners of speech like "up-talking" -- where people raise their voices like they are asking a question at the end of each sentence, and another pattern (I forget what it's called) where the voice is artificially lowered, almost growling (it's seen in business women), affect him like scraping nails on a chalkboard. Language and geography accents don't usually bother him, but he gets pretty edgy when people are engaging in deliberate "in speech" (whatever "in" happens to be for that person.)

I notice that kind of speech pattern, but I don't find it actually painful. I mentioned up-talking and even demonstrated it to another friend and sent her video examples, and she remained clueless to what I was talking about except in the most egregious examples. So there are definitely differences in the abilities of people to pick up on various social and physical cues.

How people react to the cues they experience also varies. Unconsciously or consciously, noticing that someone is outside your usual social group can invoke compassion, caution/discomfort, hostility, fascination, "He's different, I want to get to know him." etc, but we are rarely neutral. 

 

 

 

I started listening to a book with uptalking once.  Didn't know it was called that till now. Drove me absolutely batty.  Couldn't finish it. Actually could barely get past a few pages.

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't believe that all will accept baptism. And in fact, the Prophet Joseph taught the following:

But it is true that all who inherit a degree of glory will have been washed clean first through the Atonement of Christ (accessed via faith and repentance).

This point is addressed clearly in a 2017 Ensign article 'The Triumph and Glory of the Lamb: Doctrine and Covenants 76 in Its Historical Context':

I also really like the following (which touches on the same issue but from a completely different -- and important -- angle): Christopher J. Porter, '“They Must Suffer Even As I”: Misconceptions concerning Personal Payment for Sin', Religious Educator, 20:1, 2019. Some pertinent quotes:

I had a post on an earlier iteration of this forum that included about a dozen quotes from Latter-day apostles on this topic as well, but it appears to have gone missing at some point.

The statement by Joseph Smith about being saved in the terrestrial kingdom without baptism is superseded by a later revelation divulging further light and knowledge that was received by President Joseph F Smith several decades after Joseph Smith made that earlier erroneous statement. Here’s the further light and knowledge received by Joseph F Smith in 1918 that clears up the matter:

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching  of the gospel of repentance and redemption (remember the gospel of Jesus Christ includes baptism by water in order to be saved), through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ORDINANCES of the house of God (which quite obviously includes vicarious water baptism in the baptismal fonts of the temples),

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean (an obvious reference to the washing of baptism), shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

And lest anyone is tempted to deny what’s painfully obvious in the above portion of Doctrine and Covenants 138, the same revelation also says:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression , having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins (including for the wicked who rejected the gospel in in this life), the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Remember, the whole purpose of the prophet Joseph F Smith in inquiring of the Lord in this matter was to try to understand how the desperately wicked people of Noah’s day, who had repeatedly rejected the gospel that was preached to them until they had fully ripened in iniquity, could possibly be saved? Well in verses to 29 to 34 we’re told how:

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked  and the disobedient WHO HAD REJECTED THE TRUTH, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

And what is the gospel that these who were formerly ripened in iniquity were taught? Why they were taught “faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,”

A question: Why would these wicked people, who once utterly rebelled against the gospel message, be again taught the gospel including faith in God, repentance from sin and vicarious baptism for the remission of sins if by baptism by water isn’t required of them? Was it just to rub their faces in that which they couldn’t have? Well of course not because we are informed that “the dead who repent will be redeemed, through OBEDIENCE to the ORDINANCES of the house of God” And what are the ordinances of the house of God? I need not repeat them. Suffice it to say that anyone who believes those who were formerly ripened in iniquity in their rebellion against the gospel can be redeemed from their lost and fallen state without the saving ordinances of the gospel are roundly contradicted by one of the greatest revelations given by God to man, namely Doctrine and Covenants 138.

I remember thoroughly familiarizing myself with Joseph F Smith’s vision some years before it was canonized and clearly recall thinking to myself that if Joseph F Smith’s great revelation was ever added to the standard works it would be an absolute doctrinal game changer. And so it is…

Even so, I know that most of the Church members here will totally reject what I’ve plainly revealed and substantiated in this post because they’ve believed otherwise for so long that cognitive dissonance won’t allow them to accept plainly revealed and glorious additional light and knowledge.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by teddyaware

[pogi]

6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

A question: Why would these wicked people, who once utterly rebelled against the gospel message, be again taught the gospel including faith in God, repentance from sin and vicarious baptism for the remission of sins if by baptism by water isn’t required of them? Was it just to rub their faces in that which they couldn’t have?

An answer: If you hearken back to primary, teddy, then you would remember that these individuals are stuck in hell/spirit prison until they accept baptism.  That is why it is preached to them.  It is to better their current position (hell vs paradise) and hope for a more glorious resurrection.  
The rhetoric in your last paragraph is really despicable.  You seem to make yourself a prophet, “revealing” the truth to the entirety of the church who are almost entirely suffering in cognitive dissonance.  
Can you please give me one, just one, reference from a general authority which supports your interpretation (and yes, it is just your interpretation - not fact).  Because , I can show you several from prophets which suggest that not all will accept baptism, including the one from Joseph Smith.  
Our poor prophets and leaders who are suffering in cognitive dissonance, if only they would humble themselves before the greatness of your revelations!  Wo is us!

Edited October 21, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

@teddyaware

Here is what our church teaches on the subject:

Quote

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the Telestial kingdom.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

Quote

Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:30–35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–85).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

Such pathetic cognitive dissonance our church leaders display, keeping us all in the bondage of ignorance from your revelations. 

[teddyaware]

19 hours ago, california boy said:

I guess that answers my question.  Torture into submission until broken.  

Which only goes to show how uninformed you are when it comes to the gospel and the plan of salvation. What you fail to appreciate is that God doesn’t really have to do anything to cause the rebellious and unconverted to suffer spiritually for their sins because they are simply suffering the consequences for being who what they really are in their fallen, unregenerate condition. In other words, those who suffer in hell, until they finally learn to be contrite, exercise faith in the redemption of Christ, and sincerely repent are simply trapped within their own tormented minds until they realize they’ll continue to be miserable, and remain that way unless they repent, due to no one else’s fault but their own. They must learn that eternal immutable law of truth decrees that wickedness cannot bring happiness, which is why they must learn to obey the gospel of repentance and exercise living faith in God before they can finally escape the trap of being stuck within their own miserable, godless minds. As the Book of Mormon puts it, “wickedness never was happiness,” and nothing and no one will ever be able to change that inflexible fact. The only other choice is to remain rebellious and miserable forever. Like it or not, that’s the reality we all have to deal with. The prophet Mormon describes this process as follows…

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you. (Mormon 9:5)

And it’s only by experiencing that fire that can only be quenched by faith in Christ and repentance that anyone will ever be able to obtain happiness in eternity.

Edited October 21, 2022 by teddyaware

[california boy]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Which only goes to show how uninformed you are when it comes to the gospel and the plan of salvation. What you fail to appreciate is that God doesn’t really have to do anything to cause the rebellious and unconverted to suffer spiritually for their sins because they are simply suffering the consequences for being who what they really are in their fallen, unregenerate condition. In other words, those who suffer in hell, until they finally learn to be contrite, exercise faith in the redemption of Christ, and sincerely repent are simply trapped within their own tormented minds until they realize they’ll continue to be miserable, and remain that way unless they repent, due to no one else’s fault but their own. They must learn that eternal immutable law of truth decrees that wickedness cannot bring happiness, which is why they must learn to obey the gospel of repentance and exercise living faith in God before they can finally escape the trap of being stuck within their own miserable, godless minds. As the Book of Mormon puts it, “wickedness never was happiness,” and nothing and no one will ever be able to change that inflexible fact. The only other choice is to remain rebellious and miserable forever. Like it or not, that’s the reality we all have to deal with. The prophet Mormon describes this process as follows…

4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you. (Mormon 9:5)

And it’s only by experiencing that fire that can only be quenched by faith in Christ and repentance that anyone will ever be able to obtain happiness in eternity.

Well now I am a bit confused.  Are you now saying that there is actually no physical torture going on in the Telestial Kingdom?  Just people feeling bad because they have sinned?

What is really confusing to me is that I am the happiest I have ever been in my life since I have found my partner.  It makes me question whether being with him is really wicked, since wickedness never was happiness.  And if I was being totally honest, being with him in the Telestial Kingdom seems like a much better option than to be without him in some other kingdom.  

So how does all of this work?  Am I all the sudden going to hate being with him when I die?  Does love automatically stop at death?  Will I become a totally different person at death?

[mfbukowski]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:55 PM, pogi said:

Are you suggesting that every single individual except for the sons of perdition will accept baptism and be washed clean before entry into a degree of glory?  What ever happened to agency?  I think you are misinterpreting D&C 138 in suggesting that all will accept baptism. 

I have not followed this discussion carefully so I might be totally wrong, or have missed crucial points of how it has evolved, BUT..... I believe that such a think will have little to do with "agency" but that the choice wil become so obvious that everyone will simply literally SEE the truth in front of them.

It might be like being confined to a cave for lifetimes and then suddenly the veil will be lifted and there before you stands a Being brighter than the sun speaking "words" that radiate love to such a degree that one who is a genuine seeker for God will simply surrender.  It will be so obvious that it almost cannot be resisted- yet technically it CAN be resisted.

I use the idea of "self-determination" a lot.

One's freedom is restricted by the 10 commandments, for example, but one might also see the benefits of everyone following them.  Like traffic laws- we need them to just drive down the street, though of course we are (in the USA) technically FREE to drive on the LEFT side of the road, but that of course would result in chaos!   And so we voluntarily "determine ourselves" and "restrict our freedom" to accept a higher level of peace by sticking to the rules so we can drive down the road without having to dodge oncoming traffic every 10 seconds.

THAT is self determination, and at the moment we experience God's actual presence in his glory, we will simply surrender.

It will be so obviously the best choice, that it would be absurd to choose something else

[teddyaware]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have not followed this discussion carefully so I might be totally wrong, or have missed crucial points of how it has evolved, BUT..... I believe that such a think will have little to do with "agency" but that the choice wil become so obvious that everyone will simply literally SEE the truth in front of them.

It might be like being confined to a cave for lifetimes and then suddenly the veil will be lifted and there before you stands a Being brighter than the sun speaking "words" that radiate love to such a degree that one who is a genuine seeker for God will simply surrender.  It will be so obvious that it almost cannot be resisted- yet technically it CAN be resisted.

I use the idea of "self-determination" a lot.

One's freedom is restricted by the 10 commandments, for example, but one might also see the benefits of everyone following them.  Like traffic laws- we need them to just drive down the street, though of course we are (in the USA) technically FREE to drive on the LEFT side of the road, but that of course would result in chaos!   And so we voluntarily "determine ourselves" and "restrict our freedom" to accept a higher level of peace by sticking to the rules so we can drive down the road without having to dodge oncoming traffic every 10 seconds.

THAT is self determination, and at the moment we experience God's actual presence in his glory, we will simply surrender.

It will be so obviously the best choice, that it would be absurd to choose something else

Exactly! The reason why inheriting lower kingdoms of glory is associated with the spirit prison experience is because by the end of the prison term the irrefutable truth is staring the formerly rebellious souls right in the face, and by that time only a son of perdition would be stubborn enough, proud enough and stupid enough to not take advantage of the opportunity to escape from an endless hell. Meanwhile celestial glory is associated with overcoming faith and being consistently valiant in the cause of truth when the chips are down and everything the devil, your own carnal nature, and the wisdom of ungodly bullies can muster keep shouting “it isn’t real and it isn’t true!, you childish moron!” But those destined for celestial glory press on in faith undeterred.

Interestingly, Brigham Young once said the scripture that says after we die we return home to that God who gave us life means we enter a new phase of existence where spiritual things become much more obvious and easy to understand. I believe the reason why this is so is because shedding the spiritually addled fallen human body makes it somewhat easier to comprehend the things of God. I also believe shedding the fallen body,, and it’s spiritually stupefying effects, also makes it somewhat easier to discern the eternal truth that being an enemy of God and eternal truth isn’t conducive to one’s long term happiness.

Edited October 23, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Exactly! The reason why inheriting lower kingdoms of glory is associated the spirit prison experience is because by the end of the prison term the irrefutable truth is staring the formerly rebellious souls right in the face, and by that time only a son of perdition would be stubborn enough, proud enough and stupid enough to not take advantage of the opportunity to escape from an endless hell. Meanwhile celestial glory is associated with overcoming faith and being consistently valiant in the cause of truth when the chips are down and everything the devil, your own carnal nature, and the wisdom of ungodly bullies can muster keep shouting “it isn’t real and it isn’t true!, you childish moron!” But those destined for celestial glory press on in faith undeterred.

Interestingly, Brigham Young once said the scripture that says after we die we return home to that God who gave us life means we enter a new phase of existence where spiritual things become much more obvious and easy to understand. I believe the reason why this is so is because shedding the spiritually addled fallen human body makes it somewhat easier to comprehend the things of God. I also believe shedding the fallen body,, and it’s spiritually stupefying effects, also makes it somewhat easier to discern the eternal truth that being an enemy of God and eternal truth isn’t conducive to one’s long term happiness.

Well now, we cannot help to perceive what our bodies allow us to see, and that is what I believe is the true meaning of "through a glass (ie: a mirror darkly";  we look out at the world but only see ourselves in the sense of only seeing what our body-limited perceptions allow ourselves to see.  We only hear and see certain frequencies for example.

But "then, face to face", we will see God in all his glory without human limitations.

That's gotta make a difference.