Fether Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 The more I study and attend the temple, the lord I find how central covenants are to the gospel. We certainly talk about covenants a lot, but why don’t we ever list them off and talk about specific covenants? Why don’t we quote the covenants as worded in the temple and discuss how we can more fully live them? We had talks today about covenants, but no covenant was actually mentioned. Just the ceremonies that go along with them. Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 29 minutes ago, Fether said: The more I study and attend the temple, the lord I find how central covenants are to the gospel. We certainly talk about covenants a lot, but why don’t we ever list them off and talk about specific covenants? Why don’t we quote the covenants as worded in the temple and discuss how we can more fully live them? We had talks today about covenants, but no covenant was actually mentioned. Just the ceremonies that go along with them. Having talks / 5th Sundays about the specific covenants sounds like a good suggestion for ward council to consider. Link to comment
Rain Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 Wasn't it only recently that we were given the specific words to be used outside of the temple? Like in the last 2-3 years? 3 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Fether said: The more I study and attend the temple, the lord I find how central covenants are to the gospel. We certainly talk about covenants a lot, but why don’t we ever list them off and talk about specific covenants? Why don’t we quote the covenants as worded in the temple and discuss how we can more fully live them? We had talks today about covenants, but no covenant was actually mentioned. Just the ceremonies that go along with them. You can find the specific covenants on the church website, openly discussed. "During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience, which includes striving to keep God’s commandments. Law of Sacrifice, which means doing all we can to support the Lord’s work and repenting with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Law of the Gospel, which is the higher law that He taught while He was on the earth. Law of Chastity, which means that we have sexual relations only with the person to whom we are legally and lawfully wedded according to God’s law. Law of Consecration, which means dedicating our time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed us to building up Jesus Christ’s Church on the earth." 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, Stargazer said: You can find the specific covenants on the church website, openly discussed. "During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience, which includes striving to keep God’s commandments. Law of Sacrifice, which means doing all we can to support the Lord’s work and repenting with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Law of the Gospel, which is the higher law that He taught while He was on the earth. Law of Chastity, which means that we have sexual relations only with the person to whom we are legally and lawfully wedded according to God’s law. Law of Consecration, which means dedicating our time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed us to building up Jesus Christ’s Church on the earth." I saw that. I wish it (and a lot of other pages on the internet) was dated as to when it came out. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 Covenants associated with the temple are not the only ones we make in the Church. There are covenants implied with baptism, though these are not explicitly stated in the very brief ordinance itself. The sacrament prayers do name some of them, though. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post JustAnAustralian Posted September 25, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Rain said: I saw that. I wish it (and a lot of other pages on the internet) was dated as to when it came out. March-ish. On Jan 14th it had Quote During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience Law of Sacrifice Law of the Gospel Law of Chastity Law of Consecration When you keep your covenants, God promises wonderful blessings in this life and the opportunity to return to live with Him forever. On March 11th it had Quote During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience, which includes striving to keep God’s commandments. Law of Sacrifice, which means doing all we can to support the Lord’s work and repenting with a broken heart and contrite spirit. Law of the Gospel, which is the higher law that He taught while He was on the earth. Law of Chastity, which means that we have sexual relations only with the person to whom we are legally and lawfully wedded according to God’s law. Law of Consecration, which means dedicating our time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed us to building up Jesus Christ’s Church on the earth. When you keep your covenants, your relationship with the Savior becomes closer and more powerful. God promises that those who keep their covenants will receive blessings in this life and the opportunity to return to live with Him forever. So somewhere between those dates. 5 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: Law of Chastity, which means that we have sexual relations only with the person to whom we are legally and lawfully wedded according to God’s law. I’ve bolded the last part, because I think it an important proviso, though somewhat subtly worded here. Important, because in recent times, some have tried to practice lexical duplicity and falsely contend that the temple ordinances allow for same-sex marriage. Edited September 25, 2022 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Rain Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve bolded the last part, because I think it an important proviso, though somewhat subtly worded here. Important, because in recent times, some have tried to practice lexical duplicity and falsely contend that the temple ordinances allow for same-sex marriage. Was that added sort of recently? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Rain said: Was that added sort of recently? I think it alludes to wording in the ceremony that I do believe was added as part of somewhat recent changes. I won’t cite the wording explicitly, because I’m still unwilling to quote the ceremony verbatim outside of the temple. Edited September 26, 2022 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think it alludes to wording in the ceremony that I do believe was added as part of somewhat recent changes. I won’t cite the wording explicitly, because I’m still unwilling to quote the ceremony verbatim outside of the temple. Thank you. I hadn't remembered it, but it wouldn't surprise me if I were missing things. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Rain said: Wasn't it only recently that we were given the specific words to be used outside of the temple? Like in the last 2-3 years? Yes, but I have taught temple prep for years, and the readings in the short booklet given to participants mentioned each of those covenants as well, though never listing them out like that. Some quotes: Quote The ordinances of the endowment embody certain obligations on the part of the individual, such as covenant and promise to observe the law of strict virtue and chastity, to be charitable, benevolent, tolerant and pure; to devote both talent and material means to the spread of truth and the uplifting of the race; to maintain devotion to the cause of truth; and to seek in every way to contribute to the great preparation that the earth may be made ready to receive her King,—the Lord Jesus Christ. Quote We covenant with the Lord to devote our time, talents, and means to His kingdom. We are a covenant people. We covenant to give of our resources in time and money and talent—all we are and all we possess—to the interest of the kingdom of God upon the earth. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Yes, but I have taught temple prep for years, and the readings in the short booklet given to participants mentioned each of those covenants as well, though never listing them out like that. Some quotes: Yes, I knew they mentioned them. Is the first quote from a recent copy? I'm just wondering what this means, "the uplifting of the race". I'm assuming human race? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 5 minutes ago, Rain said: Thank you. I hadn't remembered it, but it wouldn't surprise me if I were missing things. I’m keenly aware of it because I listened expressly for it after SCOTUS permitted same-sex marriage and I became aware of the inclination on the part of some to wrest the wording in our doctrine in a way they apparently feel makes same-sex marriage acceptable in the eyes of God. Next time you are in the temple, listen carefully to the portion of the ceremony pertaining to the law of chastity, and you might notice content that wasn’t there before some of the more recent adjustments to the wording. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 3 minutes ago, Rain said: Is the first quote from a recent copy? I'm just wondering what this means, "the uplifting of the race". I'm assuming human race? It's a quote from Elder Talmage, so about 100 years old, but yes, 'race' is human race. I also just found this cool page on the Church's site. It gives quotes from prophets on a number of temple topics, including each covenant. 3 Link to comment
Durangout Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Fether said: The more I study and attend the temple, the lord I find how central covenants are to the gospel. Agreed We certainly talk about covenants a lot, but why don’t we ever list them off and talk about specific covenants? I have no idea. We definitely should. Why don’t we quote the covenants as worded in the temple and discuss how we can more fully live them? It is a tragedy that we don’t. We should discuss MUCH more than we do about the temple. We had talks today about covenants, but no covenant was actually mentioned. Just the ceremonies that go along with them. Too bad. That’s an Opportunity wasted. Link to comment
Calm Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Covenants associated with the temple are not the only ones we make in the Church. There are covenants implied with baptism, though these are not explicitly stated in the very brief ordinance itself. The sacrament prayers do name some of them, though. I remember teaching the promises made with baptism in Primary when I taught the 7 turning 8 years olds over 25 years ago. I don’t remember if I used the term covenant as well, but the lessons provided details iirc. This is the newer version, but my memory says it was pretty much the same in content, except perhaps using promises instead of covenants. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/34594_000_014_02-covenants.pdf Edited September 26, 2022 by Calm 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 8 hours ago, Rain said: Was that added sort of recently? Yes, specifically in teaching the law of Chastity we are taught that all must conform to "God's law" as opposed to simply being " legally and lawfully wed". 2 Link to comment
Stargazer Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 12 hours ago, Rain said: I saw that. I wish it (and a lot of other pages on the internet) was dated as to when it came out. Date of upload is not usually relevant, so web developers typically don't bother including it. It used to be that web pages included a count of times a page was accessed, but that also no longer occurs, because who cares? The Wayback Machine says this page was first recorded on April 14, 2019. That isn't the date it was first uploaded, but the date Wayback first saved it. The page was not originally as detailed as it is now. The relevant quote from above in 2019 is: "During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience Law of Sacrifice Law of the Gospel Law of Chastity Law of Consecration" The explanatory details seen now were added later. I didn't check to see when that happened. Note that I checked for the specific web address "https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng". The material may already have been available on a page with a different address. Why is it important to you to know when the page came out? 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: Date of upload is not usually relevant, so web developers typically don't bother including it. It used to be that web pages included a count of times a page was accessed, but that also no longer occurs, because who cares? There have been a number of things I cared about. This most recently. Other times there is a story I am researching and start to find that similar things have happened before and I want to keep them straight. Other times I'm looking for a sale or a coupon or frequent flier related things and I want the info current and not from 3 years ago. Just so many instances that the date makes a difference. 2 hours ago, Stargazer said: The Wayback Machine says this page was first recorded on April 14, 2019. That isn't the date it was first uploaded, but the date Wayback first saved it. The page was not originally as detailed as it is now. The relevant quote from above in 2019 is: "During the endowment ordinance, you will be invited to make certain covenants with God. These covenants include: Law of Obedience Law of Sacrifice Law of the Gospel Law of Chastity Law of Consecration" The explanatory details seen now were added later. I didn't check to see when that happened. Note that I checked for the specific web address "https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng". The material may already have been available on a page with a different address. Why is it important to you to know when the page came out? Because I was trying to find out when the church started being more specific about it. If that was from 10 years ago my memory was not correct. If from 1 year ago it might be correct and good to search further. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Rain said: There have been a number of things I cared about. This most recently. Other times there is a story I am researching and start to find that similar things have happened before and I want to keep them straight. Other times I'm looking for a sale or a coupon or frequent flier related things and I want the info current and not from 3 years ago. Just so many instances that the date makes a difference. Because I was trying to find out when the church started being more specific about it. If that was from 10 years ago my memory was not correct. If from 1 year ago it might be correct and good to search further. I believe the changes to chastity were within a year or 18 months. Link to comment
freedad Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 I spoke in sacrament meeting about two months ago specifically about the five covenants in the endowment session. I defined and described them in great detail without any negative feedback. In fact, it was well received. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 9 hours ago, Calm said: I remember teaching the promises made with baptism in Primary when I taught the 7 turning 8 years olds over 25 years ago. I don’t remember if I used the term covenant as well, but the lessons provided details iirc. This is the newer version, but my memory says it was pretty much the same in content, except perhaps using promises instead of covenants. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/34594_000_014_02-covenants.pdf As a single adult living in one of my prior wards about 30 years ago, I was asked to pinch hit at a stake baptism service by preparing and giving a talk. I was kind of hard-pressed in the moment to come up with a list of covenants we make at baptism. This was in the days long before we had the Gospel Library app, or perhaps even before the Church website as we know it, so I didn’t have that ready resource. I got the talk prepared by remembering the wording of the missionary discussion on baptism I had taught to my investigators in Sweden. I also recalled the words of the sacrament prayers. What I came up with pretty much matches what you have linked to here in this wonderfully succinct resource. Link to comment
Calm Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 6 hours ago, Stargazer said: Why is it important to you to know when the page came out? When the Church has discussed something publicly has been relevant in a number of discussions I have had; for example, accusations that the Church is just responding to a current issue can be rebutted by showing content posted before the latest controversy. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 3 hours ago, Rain said: There have been a number of things I cared about. This most recently. Other times there is a story I am researching and start to find that similar things have happened before and I want to keep them straight. Other times I'm looking for a sale or a coupon or frequent flier related things and I want the info current and not from 3 years ago. Just so many instances that the date makes a difference. Because I was trying to find out when the church started being more specific about it. If that was from 10 years ago my memory was not correct. If from 1 year ago it might be correct and good to search further. It is so frustrating when an article does not list when it was published. Hard to know if research or data provided is current or not. Link to comment
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