America's Christian majority is on track to end

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Always the rising generation are the worst sinners …

I see no evidence that any ‘generation’ is untouched or unharmed by losing connection with the Atonement or the eternal principles arising therefrom.  

Edited September 19, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I see no evidence that any ‘generation’ is untouched or unharmed from the loss of connection with eternal principles arising from the Atonement. 

So is it being cut off from all religions that is the problem or just the true one?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So is it being cut off from all religions that is the problem or just the true one?

If the world's only source of access to true principles and forgiveness were The Church of Latter-day Saints, we'd be in sore trouble!

Thankfully, no prophet has ever taught that. Here's Wilford Woodruff:

Quote

Where Presbyterians, Baptists, and other sects have taught the youth and mankind in general good wholesome principles of morality, so far it has had a good effect upon the generation around them. It is true they had not the gospel, apostles, pastors, teachers, and presidents—inspired men to teach them how to be saved. Their religion was according to the tradition of their fathers; the true Gospel was not manifested in their time, yet they had a great many good moral principles which had a good effect and a salutary influence upon all those who were affected and influenced by them. Wherever there is an influence that leads anybody to good, or to do good, so far I feel to acknowledge the hand of God in it; for I believe that everything that leads to good and to do good is of the Lord, and everything that leads to evil and to do evil is of the wicked one.

I feel to thank the Lord for any good moral principles which have been taught me in my childhood.

Pres Woodruff was specifically speaking of his own Protestant-flavoured experience, but other prophets have taught similar things about non-Christian faiths as well. The Book of Mormon likewise teaches this principle in several passages.

Academic research provides interesting contributions to this topic.

Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, 'Religious upbringing linked to better health and well-being during early adulthood', media release, 13 Sept. 2018:

Quote

Researchers found that people who attended weekly religious services or practiced daily prayer or meditation in their youth reported greater life satisfaction and positivity in their 20s—and were less likely to subsequently have depressive symptoms, smoke, use illicit drugs, or have a sexually transmitted infection—than people raised with less regular spiritual habits.

Daniel Mochon, Michael I. Norton and Dan Ariely, 'Who Benefits from Religion?', Social Indicators Research 101 (2011):

Quote

Many studies have documented the benefits of religious involvement. Indeed, highly religious people tend to be healthier, live longer, and have higher levels of subjective well-being. While religious involvement offers clear benefits to many, in this paper we explore whether it may also be detrimental to some. Specifically, we examine in detail the relation between religious involvement and subjective well-being. We first replicate prior findings showing a positive relation between religiosity and subjective well-being. However, our results also suggest that this relation may be more complex than previously thought. While fervent believers benefit from their involvement, those with weaker beliefs are actually less happy than those who do not ascribe to any religion—atheists and agnostics.

Ying Chen and Tyler J VanderWeele, 'Associations of Religious Upbringing With Subsequent Health and Well-Being From Adolescence to Young Adulthood: An Outcome-Wide Analysis', American Journal of Epidemiology 187:11 (Nov. 2018):

Quote

Consistent with prior literature, our results suggest associations of frequent religious participation in adolescence with greater subsequent psychological well-being, character strengths, and lower risks of mental illness and several health behaviors. For instance, congruent with prior meta-analyses of mostly cross-sectional adolescent studies on religion and health behaviors, we found reduced probabilities of drug use and several sexual behaviors among religiously observant adolescents. Also, consistent with results from a prior meta-analysis of religion and forgiveness, we found a positive association of religious involvement with forgiveness in early life ...

Service attendance is generally the strongest religious/spiritual predictor of health in nonclinical adult samples.

As Saints, how should we feel about attempts to actively weaken a known protective factor?

Edited September 19, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As Saints, how should we feel about attempts to actively weaken a known protective factor?

That the churches should stop this self-inflicted slow suicide pact with Babylon and get back to tending their flock.

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That the churches should stop this self-inflicted slow suicide pact with Babylon and get back to tending their flock.

I don't recall reading in any of the research that religious institutions (whether churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, or otherwise) serve as protective factors only when they adopt your 'progressive' values/agenda.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't recall reading in any of the research that religious institutions (whether churches, mosques, synagogues, temples, or otherwise) serve as protective factors only when they adopt your 'progressive' values/agenda.

That isn’t their primary problem. Their real problem is shackling themselves to secular and political power to get gain and glory and selling out their principles to do so.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Their real problem is shackling themselves to secular and political power to get gain and glory and selling out their principles to do so.

Look, this happens here too. Most of our 'mainline' Protestant churches have sold Christ in exchange for a strange mixture of climate theology mingled with the anti-Christ message that the natural man is the creation of God and that submissively putting off the natural man and becoming a saint is the most unpardonable of all sins: blasphemy against the Holy Self.

'Climate action now!' banners are replacing Bible verses on outdoor signs, and the rainbow flag has become more popular than the cross.

But I still haven't seen any evidence to convince me that the impending implosion of these increasingly empty churches will a be a net good for society. Consequently, you will never find me outside one, metaphorical lit torch in hand.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Sadly I won't be around in 2070, but we may know sooner.

Not will I.  Sooner?  Nah.  People have been thinking Jesus was coming back since Jesus time.  He even thought he was coming back soon. So did the Apostle Paul.

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not to worship, but to accept that he IS Lord.  Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.  What part of "every" allows for other options?  Even the devils believe without worship.

But everyone will accept that Jesus IS the Christ.

Sounds totalitarian to me.  Why does Jesus need every knee to bow and tongue to confess?  Why punish those who don't?  

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Look, this happens here too. Most of our 'mainline' Protestant churches have sold Christ in exchange for a strange mixture of climate theology mingled with the anti-Christ message that the natural man is the creation of God and that submissively putting off the natural man and becoming a saint is the most unpardonable of all sins: blasphemy against the Holy Self.

'Climate action now!' banners are replacing Bible verses on outdoor signs, and the rainbow flag has become more popular than the cross.

But I still haven't seen any evidence to convince me that the impending implosion of these increasingly empty churches will a be a net good for society. Consequently, you will never find me outside one, metaphorical lit torch in hand.

I really doubt your churches are all obsessed with climate messaging. I suspect that that is what you hear about and fixate on because for whatever reason you find that concept very irksome.

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I really doubt your churches are all obsessed with climate messaging. I suspect that that is what you hear about and fixate on because for whatever reason you find that concept very irksome.

After 14 years on this forum, I expect not to be accused of concocting 'fixation'-based lies.

I also didn't write 'all'. I wrote, 'most of our "mainline" Protestant churches'. I drove past three of them on my commute to parliament this morning. Two had banners with those exact words ('Climate action now!); the third had a similar message.

ETA:

I just took a work break and had a look on the website of our largest 'mainline' Protestant church (with several thousand congregations). There is a prominent link on its homepage to a guidebook on 'climate theology', authored by the assembly's theologian-in-residence. A taste of its contents:

Quote

There is a cross in climate change. It is not written in words, nor spoken in language, but displayed in the powerful acts of nature ...

Climate action is our human witness and action in the power of the Spirit. It is in our action that the cosmic Christ calls us into the fellowship of his suffering. By taking up our own cross, we become the disciples of the crucified Lord in the age of climate change. On the journey towards climate justice, Christ reaches out to command our attention and awaken our faith, and in his own strange ways renews us as his Church.

I then did a site search on 'repentance'. I clicked on the first result and then searched the resulting page for the same word. It appears only once. Quoting again:

Quote

We are in need of collective repentance for ecological injustice.

I know this will mean nothing to you, but I thought others might find it interesting.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

Not will I.  Sooner?  Nah.  People have been thinking Jesus was coming back since Jesus time.  He even thought he was coming back soon. So did the Apostle Paul.

Sounds totalitarian to me.  Why does Jesus need every knee to bow and tongue to confess?  Why punish those who don't? 
 

The kneeling and confessing will be the natural reaction to overwhelming love, not fear.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

After 14 years on this forum, I expect not to be accused of concocting 'fixation'-based lies.

I also didn't write 'all'. I wrote, 'most of our "mainline" Protestant churches'. I drove past three of them on my commute to parliament this morning. Two had banners with those exact words ('Climate action now!); the third had a similar message.

ETA:

I just took a work break and had a look on the website of our largest 'mainline' Protestant church (with several thousand congregations). There is a prominent link on its homepage to a guidebook on 'climate theology', authored by the assembly's theologian-in-residence. A taste of its contents:

I then did a site search on 'repentance'. I clicked on the first result and then searched the resulting page for the same word. It appears only once. Quoting again:

I know this will mean nothing to you, but I thought others might find it interesting.

What is the Cosmic Christ? A new Marvel superhero?

From Wikipedia:

Quote

In the modern period, a renewed interest in the cosmic Christ would arise among a number of Western scholars interested in developing an ecotheology.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was among the first to speak again of a cosmic Christ in the 1920s and 1930s. He understood the Incarnation as bringing the historical Christ into the material world and, through evolution, leading all of creation towards perfection in the Omega Point.

Later scholars, such as Joseph Sittler, Matthew Fox, Richard Rohr and Jürgen Moltmann, would likewise speak about the need to reclaim a cosmic Christology to speak about Christ's concern for creation.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

After 14 years on this forum, I expect not to be accused of concocting 'fixation'-based lies.

If duration on the board were a defense quite a few of us would be immune to criticism.

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The kneeling and confessing will be the natural reaction to overwhelming love, not fear.

Not according to the scriptures.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Not according to the scriptures.

The love that all except a very few who are in the gall of bitterness will feel will be overwhelming. There may be some sorrow, too, in those who dismissed him but realize that he suffered for and saved them too. 

[Teancum]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The love that all except a very few who are in the gall of bitterness will feel will be overwhelming. There may be some sorrow, too, in those who dismissed him but realize that he suffered for and saved them too. 

The passages of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess smacks of being compelled and not of love.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

The passages of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess smacks of being compelled and not of love.

Can you share an exact reference that you are referring to?  I've always read it as having nothing to do with force but and everything to do with acknowledging reality.  Like acknowledging that the sun was shining as you were looking at it, sort of think.  

I've always read those scriptures as there being no way to lie, no desire to do so, and nothing that could deceive someone into believing something other than the truth.

[Teancum]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you share an exact reference that you are referring to?  I've always read it as having nothing to do with force but and everything to do with acknowledging reality.  Like acknowledging that the sun was shining as you were looking at it, sort of think.  

I've always read those scriptures as there being no way to lie, no desire to do so, and nothing that could deceive someone into believing something other than the truth.

 

Philippians 2:10-11

 

New King James Version

 

 

¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, ¹¹ and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 Romans 14:11…

“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Doctrine and Covenants 76

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shallconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;.

 

 

And then we have this:

DC 19:

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink

 

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 

Philippians 2:10-11

 

New King James Version

 

 

¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, ¹¹ and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

 Romans 14:11…

“For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

Doctrine and Covenants 76

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shallconfess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;.

 

 

And then we have this:

DC 19:

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink

 

 

Ok, thanks.  Which parts specifically teach that someone will be forced to do something that is not connected to their use of agency?

I read these more like consequences of choices, than a lack of choice.  Like how, if someone chooses to walk off a cliff, then they will be impacted by gravity.  But since they had the choice to walk off the cliff or not, the effects of gravity are not forced upon them.  

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

The passages of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess smacks of being compelled and not of love.

I dont read them that way.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Ok, thanks.  Which parts specifically teach that someone will be forced to do something that is not connected to their use of agency?

I read these more like consequences of choices, than a lack of choice.  Like how, if someone chooses to walk off a cliff, then they will be impacted by gravity.  But since they had the choice to walk off the cliff or not, the effects of gravity are not forced upon them.  

every knee will bow, every tongue confess leaves little to choice.  Really this is not a big issue to me.  I was mostly yanking on @JLHPROF chain.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

every knee will bow, every tongue confess leaves little to choice.  Really this is not a big issue to me.  I was mostly yanking on @JLHPROF chain.

Agreed, it's not that big of an issue.  I just don't get the idea that if everyone does something, then that alone means they had no choice but to do it.  

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Agreed, it's not that big of an issue.  I just don't get the idea that if everyone does something, then that alone means they had no choice but to do it.  

It is like people standing up to applaud after a fantastic concert. Are they compelled to do so or is it because they were impressed by the performance. Will Christ’s appearance be so awe inspiring, will his power and glory be so overwhelmingly obvious that even those who have not aligned themselves with God kneel before him?  Why wouldn’t they?

Edited September 20, 2022 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

If the climate change forecasts are accurate, all groups including the "nones" will be declining as well over this 50 year period.  The question is who will die off faster.  I predict the secularists and nones.  Religious people tend to pull together and help each other out in disasters.  For the secularists, all they have is government.  As we know how well government works. 

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

every knee will bow, every tongue confess leaves little to choice.  Really this is not a big issue to me.  I was mostly yanking on @JLHPROF chain.

Doesn't bother me.

It's about acknowledgement of the reality that Christ is Lord.  There will be no choice about that.