Epiphany, Confession, and the Sexuality with Choice

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, I question whether failures in the criminal justice system is an indicator of societal acceptance. Many people disapprove of low prosecution and conviction rates but are at a loss as to what they can do about it. 

When it has gone in for centuries, that suggests people don’t care enough to put the resources into finding out what they can do, which suggests a cultural attitude to me.  Especially when coupled with surveys of victims explaining they didn’t report it because they would be looked at like sluts, etc. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

When it has gone in for centuries, that suggests people don’t care enough to put the resources into finding out what they can do, which suggests a cultural attitude to me.  Especially when coupled with surveys of victims explaining they didn’t report it because they would be looked at like sluts, etc. 

Here is a good case study in how much we care about rape and human trafficking and preserving the dignity of the victim.

https://apnews.com/article/iowa-des-moines-human-trafficking-0b11cb8f4f0ff46d90ae17ece6bc7d15

She stabbed and killed her rapist who was also pimping her out.

Quote

 

Prosecutors took issue with Lewis calling herself a victim in the case and said she failed to take responsibility for stabbing Brooks and “leaving his kids without a father.”

The judge peppered Lewis with repeated requests to explain what poor choices she made that led up to Brooks’ stabbing and expressed concern that she sometimes did not want to follow rules set for her in juvenile lockup.

 

So the judge suggests that it was the victim’s poor choices that led the victim to stab the human trafficker to death. That judge sure sounds like human garbage. Oh, and the victim doesn’t like complying with detention laws after escaping captivity? WHAT A MONSTER!

I think the prosecutor and the judge should be in prison. Trust me, their kids will be better off with without them.

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Being open is definitely a contributing factor as to why I am still single

I kind of figured that to be the case. I didn't query you or comment upon it before now because... what would be the point? I have one niece who may be bi- or gay. At least that's what my wife, her aunt, thinks. She doesn't date, either. And is in church every Sunday serving.

Sometimes you annoy me greatly (and I'm sure the reverse is also true). But over time I have come to appreciate your finer qualities, too. Your "coming out" doesn't reduce your value in my eyes.

[Stargazer]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They may disapprove but they disapprove very mildly and in a democracy the difference between mild disapproval and toleration barely registers at all in government.

Nobody I know disapproves of it "very mildly."

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Nobody I know disapproves of it "very mildly."

They will say they disapprove of it strongly but will they take action to correct the situation? Performative condemnation isn’t strong disapproval. Strong disapproval involves taking action to mitigate the problem. Many of the people who will claim to be horrified about the situation disapprove “very mildly”.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Nobody I know disapproves of it "very mildly."

Actions speak louder than words…one of the few proverbs that I have no issue with. 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Actions speak louder than words…one of the few proverbs that I have no issue with. 

What actions do you recommend taking that are louder than words?

[manol]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:46 PM, The Nehor said:

Oh, trust me. Every bicycle joke has been made by now. At least I hope so. There are so many of them.

I was serious.

If you haven't already, listen to Freddy Mercury's lyrics.  They are about someone who really doesn't fit in, and Freddie himself was of course bisexual.  Maybe I'm now hearing something in his lyrics that isn't really there, but all of a sudden they don't seem so random to me anymore. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

What actions do you recommend taking that are louder than words?

Making sure rape kits are all processed as quickly as possible, within a certain minimum time…at the very least weeks rather than years, preferably days.

I think there should be significantly more training on how to work with sexual assault victims among investigators and incentives to receive additional training beyond the basic level  

More victim support.

Any law officer expressing the belief that rape claims are generally hoaxes should be fired and not allowed to be rehired by another police dept  

Any law officer with domestic violence offenses should be fired if they refuse to go to family counseling  and should not be allowed to be rehired by another police dept  

Any law officer covering for another’s sexual offenses should be fired.

Increase pay and benefits of law officers so it isn’t those  who get off on power trips or with fewer skills and education and thus are willing to take lower pay who are applying for the jobs.

A national database for sex crimes and a national sex offender list  

Possibly mandatory minimum sentencing (average jail time without is almost half) for violent sexual crimes, depending on quality of evidence. Need to research to be sure as I am against mandatory sentencing for nonviolent crimes. 

Stronger sex offender list laws. 
 

No doubt I could come up with more if I thought about it…

Edited September 16, 2022 by Calm

[CV75]

On 9/14/2022 at 3:01 AM, The Nehor said:

When I was growing up being gay was a sin and I was raised to (mostly) believe that becoming gay was a choice. There was some pushback to that idea from some teachers and sources but on the whole I believed it was a choice. Plus President Kimball was backing me up. I have long since dismissed that idea as a myth but I never really questioned where it came from or why i believed it so easily back then. Actual gay people rarely believed it was a choice. And why would heterosexual people pontificate on some kind of a choice being made when they never made that choice? Hence the laughs when you ask the homophobe when they decided to be straight.

A few weeks ago I was reading through an old High School journal and came upon a time I had a crush on a girl I knew. I smiled at the memory as it was a doomed crush and was even more doomed with the benefit of hindsight. What I didn’t write down (I knew even then not to write this stuff down) but memory brought back was that I also had a crush on that crush’s one year younger brother at the same time. I remembered little deeply closeted bisexual me deliberately choosing to pursue her instead of him because it was the right thing to do. I was chuckling at naive me and then suddenly my eyes went wide as I realized what I had done and the reasoning behind it and why I so easily believed homosexuality was a choice growing up. For me IT LITERALLY WAS! I don’t mean the choice to be attracted to guys was a choice. It never was and probably never will be but I had another attractive option and I could “CHOOSE THE RIGHT/stRaIGHT”

So I started looking at it and ran a thought exercise and realized that if younger me were inexplicably asked to give a sermon on avoiding gay relationships I would have framed it as a choice between choosing the good wholesome approved attractions and ignoring and shunning the bad attractions. Is it the fault of bisexuals this myth came to be? If I leaned more towards attraction to guys it probably would have been a little more desperate of a sermon about how tempting the sin was and that choosing the right is hard and may seem unrewarding. If I favored women more it might have been written more about how only the weak fall to this inferior temptation. Bisexuals are almost perfectly designed to create this narrative.

When I was a teenager I couldn’t conceive of monosexuality. After I hit puberty I assumed everyone had crushes and were attracted to boys and girls and pretty much everyone was ignoring their attraction to their own gender. It wasn’t until much later that I realized that this wasn’t normal and I wasn’t normal. They weren’t just really good at controlling and hiding their attraction. That weird mockery of homosexuality with guys flirting with each other was not secretly expressing themselves but was (usually) genuine scorn. Shame that. I secretly loved it because it was a chance to let part of myself out for a short time. Knowing that most guys just literally weren’t attracted to guys at all was a huge shock and it took me years to admit what it meant.

Were the preachers and culture warriors fighting homosexual acceptance a bunch of closeted bisexuals fighting their inner demons and trying to cheerlead others to do the same? I am now much more curious at all the people who froth against the lgbt community and claim to see the threat. Is that threat really the tiny minority out there fighting for equal rights or is it some inner demon they are wrestling with and the whole thing is them projecting their own inner struggle?

One aspect of bisexuality that is not very commonly known is something colloquially called the bi-cycle. Basically a lot of bisexual people have their level of desire for men and women fluctuate. To some it is fast shifts and to some it is a slow up and down. Some are boy-crazy one day and girl-crazy the next. For some a cycle can last a year. It is not universal but it is pretty common. Most of the time the attraction in a romantic loving relationship is immune to the bi-cycle. The bonding keeps that individual attraction strong. Now suppose a single Christian or a Christian with no strong relationship with their spouse or partner hits the bi-cycle hard and suddenly loses attraction to their spouse and the one ‘allowed’ gender and the ‘forbidden’ gender starts looking mighty attractive. It would be easy to cast this as devilish temptation and the shift back the other way as God delivering you from the demons of homosexuality. How many reported gay cures were just that cycle reversing? How many of those political and religious firebrands denouncing the evils of the gay agenda and then getting caught expressing the sin they denounced were bisexuals hating their own attraction but unable to fight it when it grew strong. I can even see drag queens and gender bending of other kinds being seen as evil deceptions. A lot of bisexual people (but not all) find androgyny attractive. The femboy vs. tomboy debates are serious business but they always end with everyone wanting both.

So while I have no authority to speak for anyone I am sorry that my sexuality may have been responsible for so much stupidity and persecution. I do still wonder how the hell heterosexual people ever would have believed this narrative. Why did you believe it? Straight people typically have as much trouble envisioning someone being attracted to multiple genders as bisexuals do trying to imagine how you can just not be attracted to an entire gender. In spite of this you still framed it as a choice? Why? How? I still find it hard to understand monosexuality. My gut reaction is still: “Really? Have you not seen all the hot men out there? All the hot women? How can you not want them? What is wrong with you?”

 

 

The irony if this is true is that the one group that actually experiences homosexual desire like homosexuals do is the one that threw homosexuals under the bus. I am sure I am not the first to throw this idea out there but as far as I know I have never stumbled across it.

If you suspect some homophobe of being bisexual try to watch them when they are sitting down. Everyone knows bisexual people cannot sit up straight. They say it is made up but I know better and have never sat down like a normal human in my life unless I really concentrate or am under severe duress.

That brother or sister in church that looks like they are trying to have future back problems while sitting and talks about the dangers of homosexuality a little too often? They really need a hug.

 

 

 

Note: For purposes of what I wrote “bisexual” includes pansexuals, omnisexuals, and the all the other groups within the larger umbrella. It was not intended to take a stand on the bisexual vs. pansexual debate over what the difference between the two are. It is a minor issues plus everyone knows the pansexuals are just jealous that our bisexual flag looks better. I don’t hold a grudge though. I hope to see the schism mended and we split the difference and call ourselves pisexuals. Think of all the math puns and how we are clearly attracted to at least 3.1415 genders. We also get to claim pies as part of our cultural heritage and can bring back old-school pie throwing at homophobes and biphobes. Also aren’t you pansexuals tired of the endless cookware jokes?

“JOIN US AND WITH OUR COMBINED STRENGTH WE CAN END THIS DESTRUCTIVE CONFLICT AND BRING ORDER TO THE POLYSEXUALS!”

Okay, that got weird.

It seems to me that bisexual people who present and live as straight, including marriage, are choosing similarly as straight people who present and live as married people, despite their inclination, and even preoccupation to play the field. Some do so under pressure and in self-interest/preservation, and some do so under good conscience and faith, hoping for the greater, deeper happiness. And many people do not experience these particular quandaries. The gospel invites people of any makeup to treat everyone in every circumstance with Christian love; those without the gospel or a reasonable facsimile thereof may still strive to be civil, interpersonally and politically. Tall order! But this might ease some of the "throwing under the bus" (societally and individually speaking) people may engage in, intentionally or not.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It seems to me that bisexual people who present and live as straight, including marriage, are choosing similarly as straight people who present and live as married people, despite their inclination, and even preoccupation to play the field. Some do so under pressure and in self-interest/preservation, and some do so under good conscience and faith, hoping for the greater, deeper happiness. And many people do not experience these particular quandaries.

Yes, this is how the majority of bisexual people who find a long-term spouse/partner live.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

The gospel invites people of any makeup to treat everyone in every circumstance with Christian love; those without the gospel or a reasonable facsimile thereof may still strive to be civil, interpersonally and politically. Tall order! But this might ease some of the "throwing under the bus" (societally and individually speaking) people may engage in, intentionally or not.

if everyone developed charity it is true that the situation I described would be mitigated but you can say that about all kinds of situations.

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, this is how the majority of bisexual people who find a long-term spouse/partner live.

if everyone developed charity it is true that the situation I described would be mitigated but you can say that about all kinds of situations.

And that is the beauty of it. 

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And that is the beauty of it. 

I would find more beauty in it if I thought it was likely to happen.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, manol said:

I was serious.

If you haven't already, listen to Freddy Mercury's lyrics.  They are about someone who really doesn't fit in, and Freddie himself was of course bisexual.  Maybe I'm now hearing something in his lyrics that isn't really there, but all of a sudden they don't seem so random to me anymore. 

The movie Bohemian Rhapsody had a scene that hit a lot of bisexual people hard.

Freddie tells his fiancee that he is bisexual and his fiancee 'corrects' him and she tells him he is gay and breaks off the engagement.

I don't know if this bit of bi-erasure was done knowing it was unfair and presenting it as sexuality most likely would have been at the time or if it was done in ignorance of how it would be taken by the bisexual community. I want to believe the former. He did seem to love and care for her. He left her a large part of his estate even after the engagement ended.

The joke is that everyone assumes that bisexual men are just gay and in denial while bisexual women are straight but putting on a hot show for guys. It is amazing how in both cases bisexuality is somehow always about gratifying men.

In my case Mulder was barely ahead of Scully. Princess Buttercup eked out a slight win over Westley.

There is a joke that 90% of bisexuals realized it while watching the 1999 film "The Mummy". It is a comedic hyperbole but is also true for a lot of people. So if you are worried about your kids becoming bi KEEP THEM AWAY from that movie. They will still be bi but they might not realize it as quickly.

[manol]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The movie Bohemian Rhapsody had a scene that hit a lot of bisexual people hard.

Freddie tells his fiancee that he is bisexual and his fiancee 'corrects' him and she tells him he is gay and breaks off the engagement.  

Freddie wrote the song "Love of my Life" about her.  That song tears me up.  "Bicycle" was written (or at least released) about three years later. 

Maybe somewhere there is a planet where loving too few people is worse than loving too many.

Edited September 16, 2022 by manol

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2022 at 3:01 AM, The Nehor said:

So while I have no authority to speak for anyone I am sorry that my sexuality may have been responsible for so much stupidity and persecution. I do still wonder how the hell heterosexual people ever would have believed this narrative. Why did you believe it? Straight people typically have as much trouble envisioning someone being attracted to multiple genders as bisexuals do trying to imagine how you can just not be attracted to an entire gender. In spite of this you still framed it as a choice? Why? How? I still find it hard to understand monosexuality. My gut reaction is still: “Really? Have you not seen all the hot men out there? All the hot women? How can you not want them? What is wrong with you?”

That comment is the crux of when I realized the sexual preference is really not a choice.  It is how we are born/made.  Sorry it took me 40 years to realize that.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2022 at 3:26 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

The question is "Which is the first and great commandment?"  If the answer is "Thou shalt follow thy sexual impulses with all thy heart, mind and strength, whenever, and wherever they happen to be pointed, regardless of the personal risks and social costs," that demonstrates idolotry of a kind.  If the answer is, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and strength and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thy self.  On this hang all the law and the prophets," then a person has to deal with both the personal boundaries and social tolerances that a loving God calls for.  "If ye love me, keep my commandments," is I notice, an instance of love stating the conditions, rather than claiming that love has no conditions. Those who taste that fruit have to deal with the inevitable pointing and mocking from the Great and Spacious, as well as the presence of forbidden paths that lead elsewhere.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA
 

Maybe the commandment you quite is the idolatry of a false God.  One wonder, if there is this God the demands total obedience and submission and seems pretty insecure without it, why would it create humans with sexual desires, something key to our being, that then is labeled a sin.  Seems pretty strange.  So those with what you believe God says is not acceptable should deny their nature (don't give me the natural man being and enemy to good stuff)and be miserable about to likely die and end up having lived for a false hope.

[Kevin Christensen]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Maybe the commandment you quite is the idolatry of a false God.  One wonder, if there is this God the demands total obedience and submission and seems pretty insecure without it, why would it create humans with sexual desires, something key to our being, that then is labeled a sin.  Seems pretty strange.  So those with what you believe God says is not acceptable should deny their nature (don't give me the natural man being and enemy to good stuff)and be miserable about to likely die and end up having lived for a false hope.

The argument works a lot better if there were not abundant evidence that unbounded sexuality has a great many obvious social costs, personal, emotional, physical, marital, economic, medical risks and costs and consequences, etc.   It seems to be that God is simply asking us to recognize, with Peter Parker in the Marvel comic, that "With great power comes great responsibility."  That means that someone who "sees the end from the beginning" might actually have our welfare and happiness in mind when he suggests that we accept personal boundaries.  Not total repression and denial of self.  Reasonable boundaries.  A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.  But we all have space to choose for ourselves, and with our choices, consequences to ourselves, and for others affected in both the present and future.

What evidence can you provide that God seems pretty insecure without our total obedience and submission?   Not, I think, this passage (Moses 7:37-40):

Quote

the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

39 And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

40 Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.

Here is a God who is concerned for the consequences he forsees for his children, to whom he has granted agency, even the agency to disapprove of God on the rather insecure grounds that our ways and thoughts might be higher than his, that we, not He, have the wisdom to set our own boundaries and consequences schmonsequences, lust conquers all.  Even for those who suppose that approach to life, at one time or other during their mortal lives, Christ suffers and offers repentence and grace.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Teancum]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:55 PM, The Nehor said:

Thanks for the mini-sermon but I was looking at an idea of where the idea that one can choose who they are attracted to may have come from and not looking to know which are  permitted by God.

It comes form exactly the type of teachings Kevin C posted.  It comes from SWK and his comments on MoF. I was very anti gay people as  ateen in the 70s.  We used to kid around about going to Liberty Park in SLC where homosexuals were known to gather and "roll some faggots."  I regret that but it was certainly part of the culture and driven home by the teachings of the church.

[Tacenda]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:10 AM, Calm said:

When it has gone in for centuries, that suggests people don’t care enough to put the resources into finding out what they can do, which suggests a cultural attitude to me.  Especially when coupled with surveys of victims explaining they didn’t report it because they would be looked at like sluts, etc. 

You won't like this one if you haven't seen it yet...https://www.fox13now.com/news/crime/former-child-protection-official-rearrested-on-child-sex-abuse-charges

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Kevin Christensen said:

What evidence can you provide that God seems pretty insecure without our total obedience and submission?

pretty much the entire canon especially the OT. 

[CV75]

On 9/14/2022 at 7:55 PM, The Nehor said:

Thanks for the mini-sermon but I was looking at an idea of where the idea that one can choose who they are attracted to may have come from and not looking to know which are  permitted by God.

On one hand, attraction is chemistry (figuratively and literally) and you cannot help who you are attracted to, but you can control your rational decisions on how far that attraction is expressed interpersonally and socially. This is the explicit and/or implicit subtext of most classical and popular entertainment (heart and mind and the kinds of love). Before conversion, I got this societal message one way, and after conversion, another. The notion of choosing who you are attracted to would have been quite the twist, like the angel who returns to earth to earn his way to hell (has that been done yet? ...stay tuned...). I would say that involving God in understanding a) why He permits our visceral sexual attraction and b) how He can help make a rational decision on sharing that attraction are a matter of faith and conversion.

Edited September 16, 2022 by CV75

[CV75]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would find more beauty in it if I thought it was likely to happen.

I thought you were feeling guilty for throwing people under the bus, which guilt is a step toward cultivating charity, which is a step toward easing the negative dynamic.

Edited September 16, 2022 by CV75

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I thought you were feeling guilty for throwing people under the bus, which guilt is a step toward cultivating charity, which is a step toward easing the negative dynamic.

Not me personally. I never advocated for it. I just suspect that bisexual people in general created the narrative that being straight or gay is a choice since I could easily see myself doing it and believing it since it would be compatible with my lived reality. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

pretty much the entire canon especially the OT. 

I have it on good authority that the supreme being of the entire universe gets offended with something as small as the wrong name of the church is used. Seems pretty insecure to me.