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I dont think this Earth was Adam and Eve's first mortality


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I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

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49 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

One theological speculation I’ve entertained is that it may be only partially true that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms can never obtain a celestial glory. My thinking is that while it may actually be true that it’s impossible for terrestrial and telestial beings to progress to a celestial glory, as long as they remain within the bounds of those kingdoms, it may also be possible for them to fall (not progress) out of those kingdoms by passing through a veil into another fallen state where they will again have opportunity to prove themselves fully faithful to their Lord and God. In this scenario, individuals are only able to progress to higher states of glory by first falling to lower ones..

Edited by teddyaware
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2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

Why does he assume they were not intelligent enough to understand?

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3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why does he assume they were not intelligent enough to understand?

It’s not that they couldn’t understand but that they would and thus the truth would become as precious pearls cast before swine. It’s heavy duty, easily mocked truth to teach that God is a sexual being.

Edited by teddyaware
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9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

We do serve in callings such as Adam and Eve -- and Christ -- in this life, since that is the whole point! The progress after this life is propelled by the grace received in this life, which after the day of judgement, is no longer "a-veiled" to us.

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10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One theological speculation I’ve entertained is that it may be only partially true that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms can never obtain a celestial glory. My thinking is that while it may actually be true that it’s impossible for terrestrial and telestial beings to progress to a celestial glory, as long as they remain within the bounds of those kingdoms, it may also be possible for them to fall (not progress) out of those kingdoms by passing through a veil into another fallen state where they will again have opportunity to prove themselves fully faithful to their Lord and God. In this scenario, individuals are only able to progress to higher states of glory by first falling to lower ones..

Interesting concept,  is the first time I have come across this idea.

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Others' mileage may vary, and that's fine, I would rather "progress" through Eternity at a snail's pace 🐌than pass through certain states more than once.

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2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Interesting concept,  is the first time I have come across this idea.

You haven’t heard of multiple mortal probations before?  Some of the more extreme apostate groups believe(d) in them, including the Daybell group.

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

You haven’t heard of multiple mortal probations before?  Some of the more extreme apostate groups believe(d) in them, including the Daybell group.

I had heard of multiple mortal probations.  But not where you have to fall to progress,  perhaps I missed that part.

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14 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

Spencer Kimball condemned the ideas you present above.  While he was prophet.  Was he wrong?

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Wouldn’t it be automatic though, since mortality is a fallen existence?

Do not know,  as far as we know we did not have bodies before coming to earth and I have never heard of the pre existence spoken of as a kingdom of glory.  So falling from where you had a resurrected body in a kingdom of glory was a concept I had not heard of before.

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15 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Do not know,  as far as we know we did not have bodies before coming to earth and I have never heard of the pre existence spoken of as a kingdom of glory.  So falling from where you had a resurrected body in a kingdom of glory was a concept I had not heard of before.

How did you imagine multiple mortal probations before than?  No resurrection until the end of all of them?

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17 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

They were illiterate former slaves.

That’s quite an assumption.

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36 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I have shared my opinion. 

Happy to consider other points of view.

plesae share citation or reference

Quote

Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine.

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/10/our-own-liahona?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/10/our-own-liahona?lang=eng&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID=2270C059166B6CDE-3FCDBD0C0F58E194|MCORGID=66C5485451E56AAE0A490D45%40AdobeOrg|TS=1662931671

 

By the way Presidnet Kimball knew well  that the ideas of the AGD were not allegedly taught.

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16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why does he assume they were not intelligent enough to understand?

Why did Christ teach in parables?  Why did John the Revelator write in symbols?  Why Joseph receive D&C 101?

It's not about intelligence.

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5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Spencer Kimball condemned the ideas you present above.  While he was prophet.  Was he wrong?

Brigham taught one thing as prophet.  Spencer W. Kimball stated as a prophet Brigham was wrong.

Brigham claimed revelation on the matter.  President Kimball never claimed revelation, only rejected Brigham's.  In light of the contradictory teachings I think it's up to the individual to study and pray.

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19 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'll skip the journal of discourses references as that's not considered canon though I love the "from the dust creation story is like telling your kids that a stork delivers babies" citation: [27] Musser argued that Elohim is the name given to Adam’s God. Within this narrative, Adam and Eve were created on another earth governed by Elohim. In general, Musser referred to the Adam and Eve account as a “stork story” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100). Like parents teaching their children about storks delivering babies, Musser argues that Moses was inspired to write the account of Adam formed out of dust and Eve from Adam’s rib as a way of explaining the origins of humanity in a way that met “the mental capacities of his day” (Michael, Our Father and Our God, 100).

So since we pass thru a veil before mortal birth, again at mortal death isn't it possible that we passed thru a veil when we were spiritually born (from Intelligences state)?

Does it not then hold that after death, as we progress to become more and more like our Heavenly Parents, we might pass through other veils?

Surely God the Man (current question on this forum) passed through a veil at His mortal birth, mortal death, and as He progressed to become more like His Father. It also doesn't seem logical to me that our Savior was Heavenly Father's Savior. ("As Jesus said: 'Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.' " [John 5:19.]https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-11-i-seek-not-mine-own-will-but-the-will-of-the-father

If we all are supposed tobecome more like the Savior and His/our Parents won't we at some very distant point be called to serve in callings such as Adam and Eve - and pass thru a veil which applies to the future earth we'll create?

Curious why you are studying fundamentalist Adam God ideas?

Brigham's teachings are one thing.  The ideas of most fundamentalists and multiple mortal probation teachers like some remnant groups take Brigham's ideas and expand them without attributable revelation to back it up.

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22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Brigham taught one thing as prophet.  Spencer W. Kimball stated as a prophet Brigham was wrong.

Brigham claimed revelation on the matter.  President Kimball never claimed revelation, only rejected Brigham's.  In light of the contradictory teachings I think it's up to the individual to study and pray.

Such a conundrum when one DS prophet contradicts another.  Did Kimball have to declare his condemnation as a revelation?  No I do not think so.  And if Brigham  claimed it as a revelation and it was,  then church has been in apostacy since his death and worships the wrong God.  That seems like a bit of a problem.  After all Joseph said knowing the attributes of God and who and what God is was the first principle of the gospel.  Though he was not consistent on that at all as well.

Edited by Teancum
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19 hours ago, teddyaware said:

One theological speculation I’ve entertained is that it may be only partially true that the inheritors of the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms can never obtain a celestial glory. My thinking is that while it may actually be true that it’s impossible for terrestrial and telestial beings to progress to a celestial glory, as long as they remain within the bounds of those kingdoms, it may also be possible for them to fall (not progress) out of those kingdoms by passing through a veil into another fallen state where they will again have opportunity to prove themselves fully faithful to their Lord and God. In this scenario, individuals are only able to progress to higher states of glory by first falling to lower ones..

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

“We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.” And those who keep not their first estate and expect us to go through the same thing again are nuts! Selah.

Edited by CV75
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3 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Such a conundrum when one DS prophet contradicts another.  Did Kimball have to declare his condemnation as a revelation?  No I do not think so.  And if Brigham  claimed it as a revelation and it was,  then church has been in apostacy since his death and worships the wrong God.  That seems like a bit of a problem.  After all Joseph said knowing the attributes of God and who and what God is was the first principle of the gospel.  Though he was not consistent on that at all as well.

Where Joseph is concerned I don't consider his changes as contradictory but instead as progressive.  As he received new light he dropped previous understanding.  You can trace his trinitarian or unitarian beginning in the New York time to the binatarian ideas in the 5th Lecture on Faith in Kirtland.  Then on to a Tritheism idea followed by the Social Trinitarian ideas of the everlasting covenant (where today's Church has set up shop) and finally to the King Follett doctrine of exalted men.

It's only contradictory if you think Joseph understood God perfectly when he walked out of the grove.  I don't.  I think he received revelation line upon line and his theology developed with it.

As for his statement about "knowing" God, I think that's as much a reference to his contemporary statement on the second comforter as it is to understanding attributes.

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8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Such a conundrum when one DS prophet contradicts another.  Did Kimball have to declare his condemnation as a revelation?  No I do not think so.  And if Brigham  claimed it as a revelation and it was,  then church has been in apostacy since his death and worships the wrong God.  That seems like a bit of a problem.  After all Joseph said knowing the attributes of God and who and what God is was the first principle of the gospel.  Though he was not consistent on that at all as well.

Apostasy is an overstatement. None of these three prophets turned away from the principles of the gospel or made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. So not a conundrum, not a problem for those who accept this description of apostasy. The priesthood keys for revelation and government (and others) are still delegated, intact and activated.

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