Missionaries' "Nope" Response to Lesbian Doormat

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Kind of like murder is wrong (if you think it is) because ....... you feel it is?

I have no idea what your point is.  Do you even have one?

[Navidad]

I just read this entire thread. I am not sure how to respond to it except to say this . . . I believe all human beings are of value, worth, filled with potentiality, and can benefit from hearing the good news (gospel) of Christ, whether shared by a Pentecostal, Catholic, LDS, Mennonite, or Methodist. The gospel of Christ transcends denominational (sect, etc) boundaries. I am 73 years old, have worshiped and fellowshipped in a variety of settings and can clearly and without fear state that the good news is not the exclusive property of any one Christian group. One can find confrontation wherever one desires. Equally so, one can find harmony and fellowship wherever one desires. As for me and my family we choose the latter. Best to all.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

. One can find confrontation wherever one desires. Equally so, one can find harmony and fellowship wherever one desires. As for me and my family we choose the latter. Best to all.

Nice sentiment but what is the Mennonite view of homosexuality?

How do y'all handle these situations?  Do you have married gay folks in your parish - congregation- fellowship ? sorry don't know the terminology.

You love and accept everyone, that's wonderful, so teach us how to balance homosexuality with Doctrine that says it is sinful, as the bible seems to indicate.  Gay ministers? Women pastors?

Edited September 10, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

I have no idea what your point is.  Do you even have one?

Just that one on the top of my head covered with tinfoil.

How do you know what is right or wrong if it's not "God"?

Athiests have a "conscience" which to me is just another name for a still small voice, in other words, God.

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Just that one on the top of my head covered with tinfoil.

How do you know what is right or wrong if it's not "God"?

Athiests have a "conscience" which to me is just another name for a still small voice, in other words, God.

It is called human ethics,that evolve over time.  One does not need a god to develop a common group of morals.  Humans started doing this before your god was created. And some of what was attributed to so called gods in the past was not all that wonderful.  How do we know your god is any better than the ancient now considered mythical gods?  We make rules that the majority of us accept as good and for the benefit of society.  It is is all of a god which god's rules do we follow?

Edited September 10, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Is it also intrusive arrogant and rude to knock on someone’s door when canvassing for people’s political views?  I’ve done that many times and found the vast majority are polite and have no problem saying they are not interested if they are not interested.  It’s a few minutes out of their day.  I’m sure it’s the same for missionaries.  I’ve certainly never been upset when strangers such as JW missionaries have knocked on my door, nor thought them arrogant or intrusive and Ive never heard anyone complain about it either, just laugh about how they sent them away.  Obviously this is only personal anecdotal information so doubtless it carries little weight.  Personally, I am very grateful missionaries came to my door uninvited or I may never have become a member of the Church.

Yes I think even political people knocking on doors is rude.  And sales people.  You may not find it rude and that is fine.  I wonder when the missionaries first knocked how you initially felt.  And your current view is certainly formed by your religion.  But fact is most people don't like anyone pounding on their door uninvited for any reason.  They didn't over 40 years ago when I did it, a lot, as a missionary.  And they like it less now.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Nice sentiment but what is the Mennonite view of homosexuality?

How do y'all handle these situations?  Do you have married gay folks in your parish - congregation- fellowship ? sorry don't know the terminology.

You love and accept everyone, that's wonderful, so teach us how to balance homosexuality with Doctrine that says it is sinful, as the bible seems to indicate.  Gay ministers? Women pastors?

There is no one Mennonite view of homosexuality. There are a variety of views, sometimes very far apart. There are gay and female ministers and lesbian ministers in some Mennonite churches. There is no question the subject has divided the Mennonite world. So I would only suggest balancing the subject as you believe you are led, but when you get down to people and not subjects, love and receive everyone.

And if you want a more specific and personal answer, I went to a Mennonite church in Florida that had a gay pastor.  In San Diego, for a while I attended a church with a gay pastor who came from my home town in Pennsylvania. He was a wonderful pastor and preacher. Oh, and I have a wonderful friend in our ward who is clearly and openly gay. His dad just died of cancer and I am so pleased our new bishop allowed him to give the family prayer and then testify during the service. His dad was one of our visiting teachers for four years. I think the world of the entire family.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is called human ethics,that evolve over time.  One does not need a god to develop a common group of morals.  Humans started doing this before your god was created. And some of what was attributed to so called gods in the past was not all that wonderful.  How do we know your god is any better than the ancient now considered mythical gods?  We make rules that the majority of us accept as good and for the benefit of society.  It is is all of a god which god's rules do we follow?

Take it up a notch

WE are gods in embryo and we all have the same stories for a reason

Kinda funny a lot of them are the same, if they are not from one source.  Almost like our brains are designed/evolved for that.  So is that causality or correlation?

What's the practical difference? None.

We need them for survival.

That's true on more than one level too, that desire for survival extends to eternal survival too.

I guess evolution then teaches all about an afterlife too.

All religions have pretty much the same stories 

Pretty clever, this evolution stuff and how it perfectly aligns with religion even where it doesn't have to

 

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

There is no one Mennonite view of homosexuality. There are a variety of views, sometimes very far apart. There are gay and female ministers and lesbian ministers in some Mennonite churches. There is no question the subject has divided the Mennonite world. So I would only suggest balancing the subject as you believe you are led, but when you get down to people and not subjects, love and receive everyone.

And if you want a more specific and personal answer, I went to a Mennonite church in Florida that had a gay pastor.  In San Diego, for a while I attended a church with a gay pastor who came from my home town in Pennsylvania. He was a wonderful pastor and preacher. Oh, and I have a wonderful friend in our ward who is clearly and openly gay. His dad just died of cancer and I am so pleased our new bishop allowed him to give the family prayer and then testify during the service. His dad was one of our visiting teachers for four years. I think the world of the entire 

Thanks for the info about Mennonites.  When I lived in San Diego I had some friends who attended a church of The Brethren.

They didn't get to go to Viet Nam.

I think it was a pretty popular church around that time 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

There is no one Mennonite view of homosexuality. There are a variety of views, sometimes very far apart. There are gay and female ministers and lesbian ministers in some Mennonite churches. There is no question the subject has divided the Mennonite world. So I would only suggest balancing the subject as you believe you are led, but when you get down to people and not subjects, love and receive everyone.

And if you want a more specific and personal answer, I went to a Mennonite church in Florida that had a gay pastor.  In San Diego, for a while I attended a church with a gay pastor who came from my home town in Pennsylvania. He was a wonderful pastor and preacher. Oh, and I have a wonderful friend in our ward who is clearly and openly gay. His dad just died of cancer and I am so pleased our new bishop allowed him to give the family prayer and then testify during the service. His dad was one of our visiting teachers for four years. I think the world of the entire family.

Why would the bishop have to give permission?

[ksfisher]

20 hours ago, Chum said:

My understanding is that wards tend to assign non-binary members to the EQ, RS or the Bishopric. Is that not the case? If it is, are there objections to that?

Assign them for what?

If it’s for ministering, who else would they be assigned to?

[sheilauk]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes I think even political people knocking on doors is rude.  And sales people.  You may not find it rude and that is fine.  I wonder when the missionaries first knocked how you initially felt.  And your current view is certainly formed by your religion.  But fact is most people don't like anyone pounding on their door uninvited for any reason.  They didn't over 40 years ago when I did it, a lot, as a missionary.  And they like it less now.

I appreciate your consistency.  As for when the missionaries first came to me, I felt fine.  Not annoyed, not bothered, not intruded upon.  Actually, I welcomed them.  I’ve had sales people, political candidates and Jehovahs Witnesses knock on my door before I became “Mormon.”  I didn’t find it rude then or now.  My current view is not formed by my current religion but perhaps more from being a door knocker myself for over 30 years (which is considerably longer than I’ve been Mormon.)  (And maybe because I was happy the missionaries came to my door as I wanted to talk to them!). And maybe people in the UK view it differently than the USA because I would say the majority that I know don’t generally mind.  They understand why you’re there. A lot of them are happy to take the opportunity to talk.  I’ve met quite a few be annoyed if we didn’t knock on their door!  Like me, if they are busy they say go away.  Now, if you didn’t then politely say goodbye and leave, that they wouldn’t like.  Or maybe they are too polite to say they don’t like it.  But I’ve had conversations with a lot of folks about it and most of them did not say they didn’t like it or that people shouldn’t do it.  Of course there are those who don’t like it, as you don’t.  So put a notice on your door (or a doormat outside it) and most uninvited callers should be polite enough to leave without knocking.  Because if someone clearly doesn’t want a canvasser or missionary or anyone else to knock uninvited, I agree it would be rude to proceed to knock.  I’ve walked away from the occasional door because of a notice.  You have your experience and I have mine.  Both true for the areas we know and both purely anecdotal.  I don’t see how you can draw any conclusion about what most think unless there is some empirical, objective evidence and even then, feelings about it may vary from country to country, dependent on culture.  In the end both of us, any of us, can only speak for our experience in a limited area of the world and not for most of the world.

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Same!

I regularly knock doors for my employer. Like yours, my experience has been that the vast majority of people are not gits when someone visits. After all, the whole point of a front door is as an interface between the residents of the home and the outside world. It's like having a phone and then whingeing if someone actually rings it ...

Note to self: Get rid of front door.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Same!

I regularly knock doors for my employer. Like yours, my experience has been that the vast majority of people are not gits when someone visits. After all, the whole point of a front door is as an interface between the residents of the home and the outside world. It's like having a phone and then whingeing if someone actually rings it ...

I remember the Beatles song which says something about a "stupid git".   I thought I misheard it and didn't really care about yet another rock n roll song with lyrics I could not hear clearly

I have never in my life heard that term anywhere else.  Nowhere, never!   So I looked it up

OHMIGOSH!  It's in the dictionary!!

I KNEW I would learn something here today!!   

In the real estate business, you knock on doors especially at the beginning.  The goal was to knock on as many doors as was humanly possible in limited time.   I didn't care if they were rude- it was just one more door "finished".   I kind of hated it when they told me their life story before telling me they were not interested.

At least I got a thick skin!

Edited September 11, 2022 by mfbukowski

[nuclearfuels]

On 9/6/2022 at 5:56 PM, smac97 said:

1. Do you think the missionaries should have knocked on the door?

2. Do you think the missionaries "walked away out of respect?"

I think they followed the Spirit's prompting.

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/9/2022 at 1:49 PM, InCognitus said:

"Good news" is good news.  I don't know of any church approved missionary training or personal experience with missionary work where the Church has instructed anyone to tell other people their religious views are "wrong" and ours are right.  In a door approach, there is typically no knowledge of the person's religious views, or if they have any at all.  So how would we know if what they believe is "wrong"? 

We take the positive approach.  As President Gordon B. Hinckley put it:  “Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work. That is the essence of our missionary service”

I have an issue with President Hinckley's statement. It appears very open and inclusive. However, I doubt it as a practical matter. It seems rather rhetorical. This is something I've commented on before. He says to bring the good that I have and let the LDS church add to it. One of the "goods" I have is my devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. She has been with me from the beginning of my conversion to Christianity to the present moment. In a short post I cannot explain how much Our Lady has done for me. She is so good to me. I would not be Christian without Her intercession.

Yet, if I were to convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I would have to leave that behind. No more rosaries. No more candles lit to Her Honor. No more prayers to Her. No more devotion to Her.

How is my conversion to your faith taking the good I have and letting you add to it? It appears to me that a conversion to your faith means letting go of the things I thought were good but were actually contrary to your beliefs, and then adding your beliefs to what was left. In other words, the only "good" I bring is that which is already LDS.

I'm ok with that as a definition of conversion. That's what it definitely means to convert to Catholicism -- you gotta leave your non Catholic beliefs at the door. But President Hinckley's words seem to try to hide that fact in order to appear softer or more inclusive or more ecumenical. How can I bring non-LDS "goods" to my conversion to being LDS?

ETA: I've started a thread about this here

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by MiserereNobis

[Calm]

5 hours ago, sheilauk said:

I appreciate your consistency.  As for when the missionaries first came to me, I felt fine.  Not annoyed, not bothered, not intruded upon.  Actually, I welcomed them.  I’ve had sales people, political candidates and Jehovahs Witnesses knock on my door before I became “Mormon.”  I didn’t find it rude then or now.  My current view is not formed by my current religion but perhaps more from being a door knocker myself for over 30 years (which is considerably longer than I’ve been Mormon.)  (And maybe because I was happy the missionaries came to my door as I wanted to talk to them!). And maybe people in the UK view it differently than the USA because I would say the majority that I know don’t generally mind.  They understand why you’re there. A lot of them are happy to take the opportunity to talk.  I’ve met quite a few be annoyed if we didn’t knock on their door!  Like me, if they are busy they say go away.  Now, if you didn’t then politely say goodbye and leave, that they wouldn’t like.  Or maybe they are too polite to say they don’t like it.  But I’ve had conversations with a lot of folks about it and most of them did not say they didn’t like it or that people shouldn’t do it.  Of course there are those who don’t like it, as you don’t.  So put a notice on your door (or a doormat outside it) and most uninvited callers should be polite enough to leave without knocking.  Because if someone clearly doesn’t want a canvasser or missionary or anyone else to knock uninvited, I agree it would be rude to proceed to knock.  I’ve walked away from the occasional door because of a notice.  You have your experience and I have mine.  Both true for the areas we know and both purely anecdotal.  I don’t see how you can draw any conclusion about what most think unless there is some empirical, objective evidence and even then, feelings about it may vary from country to country, dependent on culture.  In the end both of us, any of us, can only speak for our experience in a limited area of the world and not for most of the world.

I know I had a real problem trying to feel comfortable when I was in Canada going door to door selling daffodils for fundraising every spring. Then there were the poppy pins in fall. Canada had a much more active on the street or at the door fundraising process. It felt odd to me, but I loved that time of year, seeing the mass of daffodils everywhere. I missed it when we moved back to the states. The first few years I would hit the flower store to get some, but then I started missing the date and then just forgetting.

We have had kids selling stuff door to door in the past for school and I remember we were supposed to do that ourselves when I was a kid, but I never could as I was too shy, but it has been years since anyone has come around for school stuff.  I wonder if they still do that but our street just gets skipped somehow or they just tell kids to limit it to those they know these days or parents insist on it for safety reasons. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Note to self: Get rid of front door.

Around here that would let the skeeters in.

 

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Around here that would let the skeeters in.

 

I was thinking more turn it into a wall.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I have an issue with President Hinckley's statement. It appears very open and inclusive. However, I doubt it as a practical matter. It seems rather rhetorical. This is something I've commented on before. He says to bring the good that I have and let the LDS church add to it. One of the "goods" I have is my devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. She has been with me from the beginning of my conversion to Christianity to the present moment. In a short post I cannot explain how much Our Lady has done for me. She is so good to me. I would not be Christian without Her intercession.

Yet, if I were to convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I would have to leave that behind. No more rosaries. No more candles lit to Her Honor. No more prayers to Her. No more devotion to Her.

How is my conversion to your faith taking the good I have and letting you add to it? It appears to me that a conversion to your faith means letting go of the things I thought were good but were actually contrary to your beliefs, and then adding your beliefs to what was left. In other words, the only "good" I bring is that which is already LDS.

I'm ok with that as a definition of conversion. That's what it definitely means to convert to Catholicism -- you gotta leave your non Catholic beliefs at the door. But President Hinckley's words seem to try to hide that fact in order to appear softer or more inclusive or more ecumenical. How can I bring non-LDS "goods" to my conversion to being LDS?

ETA: I've started a thread about this here

 

We believe we have a Heavenly Mother who is the Mother of Jesus spiritually, as well as all of us too, since we are all brothers and sisters spiritually.

We do not "pray" to her, because we no need for intercession, but I personally have been known to have a chat with Her on occasion 

But yes, no rosaries etc.

I have always had trouble with the whole notion of intercession.  I don't understand the purpose of it, and have no problem going directly to Father with my problems.  Being an Only, I also have never quite understood why one would need siblings to intercede for me.  I seem to get along pretty well with Father anyway !  

 

 

 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Take it up a notch

WE are gods in embryo and we all have the same stories for a reason

YOu have faith we are gods in embroyos.  Hardly any other religion teaches that.  We do not all have the same stories at all.  Even the current major world religions have large differences.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Kinda funny a lot of them are the same, if they are not from one source. 

They are not all the same.  Some may be similar.  There are other explanations.  Like someone stole an idea or story from another tradition and adopted it into theirs.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

Almost like our brains are designed/evolved for that.  So is that causality or correlation?

Are they?  Or are they simply evolved enough to ask question about existence and wonder about death and what may come after.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What's the practical difference? None.

We need them for survival.

Certainly religion has had useful attributes in human history.  

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's true on more than one level too, that desire for survival extends to eternal survival too.

I guess evolution then teaches all about an afterlife too.

No it doesn't.

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

All religions have pretty much the same stories 

No they don't.  

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Pretty clever, this evolution stuff and how it perfectly aligns with religion even where it doesn't have to

 

Your premise it totally flawed.  YOu might want to study worlds religions a bit more. I recommend this book:

https://www.stephenprothero.com/god-is-not-one

 

[InCognitus]

18 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

ETA: I've started a thread about this here

Thanks for your thoughtful question.  I'll respond to it in the thread you created.

[Navidad]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:32 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Why would the bishop have to give permission?

I don't know. You would probably know better than me. I know that he (my friend) expressed concern about whether he would be able to offer the prayer and how folks would react to that and to his sharing memories. My guess is our ward leans a bit of the conservative side of LDS doctrine and polity. One must remember that it was the most conservative of the conservative Saints who came here to settle in 1885 and later. I have been reading a lot lately about the concept of "soul wounds" - epigenetic scars that impact generations. It is a fascinating psychological-physiological study. Methinks I see some of that in the LDS folks here in the colonies and in their history over the 20th century and beyond. I also must say that I made an assumption that the family prayer in private and the dedicatory prayer at the grave are both an important traditional and doctrinal part of the funeral polity. Thanks for the question.

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't know. You would probably know better than me. I know that he (my friend) expressed concern about whether he would be able to offer the prayer and how folks would react to that and to his sharing memories. My guess is our ward leans a bit of the conservative side of LDS doctrine and polity. One must remember that it was the most conservative of the conservative Saints who came here to settle in 1885 and later. I have been reading a lot lately about the concept of "soul wounds" - epigenetic scars that impact generations. It is a fascinating psychological-physiological study. Methinks I see some of that in the LDS folks here in the colonies and in their history over the 20th century and beyond. I also must say that I made an assumption that the family prayer in private and the dedicatory prayer at the grave are both an important traditional and doctrinal part of the funeral polity. Thanks for the question.

Thanks. If you have the time and interest, here are the instructions to bishops from our General Handbook.

Quote

29.5.4
Funeral Services (Where Customary)

If a funeral for a member is held in a Church building, the bishop conducts it. If it is held in a home, at a mortuary, or at the graveside, the family may ask the bishop to conduct it. A bishop’s counselor may conduct if the bishop cannot. For information about services held in a Church building for a person who is not a member of the Church, see 29.5.6.
A funeral conducted by the bishop, whether in a Church building or elsewhere, is a Church meeting and a religious service. It should be a spiritual occasion. The bishop urges participants to maintain a spirit of reverence and dignity.
When a bishop conducts a funeral, he or one of his counselors oversees the planning of the service. He considers the wishes of the family, ensuring that the funeral is simple and dignified, with music and brief addresses centered on the gospel. The comfort offered by Jesus Christ because of His Atonement and Resurrection should be emphasized. Family members are not required to speak or otherwise participate in the service.
Funerals are an opportunity to pay tribute to the deceased. However, such tributes should not dominate the service. A special family gathering, separate from the funeral service, is usually a better setting if the family wants more time to share tributes or memories.
Video presentations should not be part of a funeral service held in a chapel.
Funerals should start on time. Generally, they should not last more than 1.5 hours, as a courtesy to those who attend.
If a member of the stake presidency, an Area Seventy in his area, or a General Authority attends the funeral, he presides. The person conducting consults him in advance and recognizes him during the service. The presiding officer should be invited to offer closing remarks if he desires.
Funeral services are not normally held on Sunday.
In some cases, the bishop can arrange with morticians to provide modest, respectable funeral and burial services at cost if expenses are paid from fast-offering funds.

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

the conservative side of LDS doctrine and polity.

What other side is there? 😉