BYU requires new hires to waive their right to clergy confidentiality

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

What is your experience with the anthropology department, and this class in particular https://catalog.byu.edu/family-home-and-social-sciences/anthropology/biological-anthropology? Of course some universities are better at it than others (of course you will stand by your own Alma Mater), but does making such a course mandatory/required for majors really foster more intellectual independence and freedom than not requiring it?

What Calm said. My own university has a strong cultural bent to it too but also recognizes the necessity of having robust biological content as well. Maybe I’m a snob but I just can’t see it any other way.

[mfbukowski]

I absolutely love the gospel.

I absolutely love the church.

In my experience I would never work for the church, nor recommend others to do so.

[The Nehor]

I once looked into doing a contracting job for the Church. When I saw what they were paying I laughed and walked away.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, katherine the great said:

What Calm said. My own university has a strong cultural bent to it too but also recognizes the necessity of having robust biological content as well. Maybe I’m a snob but I just can’t see it any other way.

Biology impacts culture big time, I think it is foolish if one is studying cultural development to ignore biology.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I absolutely love the gospel.

I absolutely love the church.

In my experience I would never work for the church, nor recommend others to do so.

Why not?

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why not?

People seem to have this belief that working for the church is awful or somehow disillusioning. I enjoyed my time at the church. The pay wasn't great, but I enjoyed the job and really liked my colleagues. The only reason I left was that I hated the commute and didn't want to move closer to Salt Lake. A lot of people have said that working for the church probably damaged my testimony, but it did not at all.

Edited August 31, 2022 by jkwilliams

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

People seem to have this belief that working for the church is awful or somehow disillusioning. I enjoyed my time at the church. The pay wasn't great, but I enjoyed the job and really liked my colleagues. The only reason I left was that I hated the commute and didn't want to move closer to Salt Lake. A lot of people have said that working for the church probably damaged my testimony, but it did not at all.

I can think of a dozen reasons I wouldn't want to work for the church.

But I'm curious why someone like Mark who loves the church and the gospel wouldn't want to work for the church when such work would seemingly benefit the church and its missions. I would think that the church would want to do some introspection to determine why a stalwart wouldn't want to work for them and then perhaps make some adjustments.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

I can think of a dozen reasons I wouldn't want to work for the church.

But I'm curious why someone like Mark who loves the church and the gospel wouldn't want to work for the church when such work would seemingly benefit the church and its missions. I would think that the church would want to do some introspection to determine why a stalwart wouldn't want to work for them and then perhaps make some adjustments.

I'm curious, as well. Obviously, I'm glad I no longer work for the church, but then I know a couple of unbelievers who are church employees. I couldn't have done it.

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

A university is supposed to challenge students’ preconceptions by presenting new information. BYU seems designed to reinforce those preconceptions. 

On some subjects, certainly.

But on others, I'm pretty sure they are quite current.  Mathematics, physics, and astronomy, for example, are not seriously threatened by religious dogma. Usually, at least.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Stargazer said:

On some subjects, certainly.

But on others, I'm pretty sure they are quite current.  Mathematics, physics, and astronomy, for example, are not seriously threatened by religious dogma. Usually, at least.

Well, that's what I mean. I wouldn't want to be teaching and wondering where I needed to draw the line so as not to threaten dogma. And I have a major problem with inserting religion into secular topics for the sake of providing a religious foundation for students. 

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

Oh, who knows... I was talking about the attitude toward critical thinking of the university that overtly avoids spirituality in its mission.

Thank you for the link but I cannot access it. I won't jump to conclusions about David's dismissal based on other accessible articles he's written on the same topic, not knowing the relative timeframes, circumstances and what he did on campus.

It would be nice to see the actual disclaimers also, but, oh well, such is life.

Why can't you access it? I was able to, even over here in Europe. There were just a couple of questions, they then offered to sell me a membership if I wanted, or just download the one PDF. Can I help you get it?

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, that's what I mean. I wouldn't want to be teaching and wondering where I needed to draw the line so as not to threaten dogma. And I have a major problem with inserting religion into secular topics for the sake of providing a religious foundation for students. 

While I love including gospel principles where and if they seem to fit, I can definitely see that it is not at all necessary in most subjects. And not at all desirable in some others.

I attended BYU briefly before running out of money and joining the Army (back in 1975). In none of my classes did the professors or instructors bring theology into their lessons. Except the religion 101 class, of course. E.g., my chemistry professor was a BYU stake president, and for chemical thermodynamics he said not one word about religion. I suppose he could have said something about how nice it was that God invented the three laws of thermodynamics, all for our benefit, but he didn't. He just taught the laws, and let God be evident in them without commentary thereon.

Though it occurs to me that Professor Ott and I did have a brief conversation about theology once, during an office visit. I suggested to him that the second law of thermodynamics provided evidence that God exists. He wrinkled his forehead, looked at me, and said "No, I don't think it does."    That was the sum of his religious instruction.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Stargazer said:

While I love including gospel principles where and if they seem to fit, I can definitely see that it is not at all necessary in most subjects. And not at all desirable in some others.

I attended BYU briefly before running out of money and joining the Army (back in 1975). In none of my classes did the professors or instructors bring theology into their lessons. Except the religion 101 class, of course. E.g., my chemistry professor was a BYU stake president, and for chemical thermodynamics he said not one word about religion. I suppose he could have said something about how nice it was that God invented the three laws of thermodynamics, all for our benefit, but he didn't. He just taught the laws, and let God be evident in them without commentary thereon.

Though it occurs to me that Professor Ott and I did have a brief conversation about theology once, during an office visit. I suggested to him that the second law of thermodynamics provided evidence that God exists. He wrinkled his forehead, looked at me, and said "No, I don't think it does."    That was the sum of his religious instruction.

I didn't get a lot of religious bleed-over into other classes. Mostly, it was "we're going to talk about a certain subject, and I wouldn't want you to think I'm going against the church by teaching it." That always struck me as bizarre. I do remember a professor going into a very long soliloquy about testimonies in a Victorian Literature class. That was bizarre, too.

[Stargazer]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn't get a lot of religious bleed-over into other classes. Mostly, it was "we're going to talk about a certain subject, and I wouldn't want you to think I'm going against the church by teaching it." That always struck me as bizarre. I do remember a professor going into a very long soliloquy about testimonies in a Victorian Literature class. That was bizarre, too.

I can definitely see that as bizarre.

My own personal beliefs about some "fraught" subjects would probably cause some folks in Sunday School some discomfort. My wife has told me that I don't need to tell her those kinds of things. This forum is pretty much the only place I feel comfortable expressing those kinds of thoughts/theories (mostly the astrophysics and cosmology kind of things, but extending to plural marriage). Even if someone hates what I've written, the worst they can do is argue with me. And it's easy to ignore them. Sometimes and on some subjects I feel a certain amount of accomplishment only if Raingirl downvotes my post. Which doesn't mean I don't appreciate her input! 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Stargazer

[mfbukowski]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:35 PM, bluebell said:

For the sake of accuracy, she didn't say that his heart stopped.  She said that he "all the sudden stopped breathing" which is what happened if you read the report (which I'm sure you have and of course it was because of other circumstances).

And his death was not the faith promoting part of the story.  It was an explanation of the faith promoting part.

But I will stop with the derail as well.

Some of us have no idea what you guys are even NOT talking about; the thread has already been derailed by not talking about what you are talking about 

So what's the deal?

Sounds like a local news issue?

So BC's DIL shook a baby, kid stops breathing, probably thru some alleged spiritual occurrence, starts breathing again, story is told as faith promoting, right?

This is what has been told so far by NOT telling the story

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I can think of a dozen reasons I wouldn't want to work for the church.

But I'm curious why someone like Mark who loves the church and the gospel wouldn't want to work for the church when such work would seemingly benefit the church and its missions. I would think that the church would want to do some introspection to determine why a stalwart wouldn't want to work for them and then perhaps make some adjustments.

It is run by human managers, who may not be the best of humanity, but who IS?  One expects perfection in all church things, that everyone who works for the church should be Angels fluttering through their earthly day, before going home to their semi- Heavenly abodes.

They ain't that, they are people trained by Walmart, sometimes literally, in the lower management levels.

People should not, but can lose their testimonies over things like that.  I have seen that, so I said that.

That's all!

Plus the salaries are low, and folks think they will be working in heaven.

It ain't that.

 

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is run by human managers, who may not be the best of humanity, but who IS?  One expects perfection in all church things, that everyone who works for the church should be Angels fluttering through their earthly day, before going home to their semi- Heavenly abodes.

They ain't that, they are people trained by Walmart, sometimes literally, in the lower management levels.

People should not, but can lose their testimonies over things like that.  I have seen that, so I said that.

That's all!

Plus the salaries are low, and folks think they will be working in heaven.

It ain't that.

 

I wouldn't want to work for the church, either.

I'm pretty sure that the Church employs not just a few people who are the equivalent of Dilbert's "pointy-haired boss."

I think, as far as salaries are concerned, these may be factors that cause it. One would be the angle of not being seen to waste God's funds by paying too much. Another might be the angle of "It's a privilege to work for the church, so you shouldn't expect to be paid at a market rate." 

The problem with paying a less-than-market salary is that you may get a greater share of less-than-market employees. Thus the pointy-haired-bosses.

But I'm probably completely wrong. I only know a few church employees (now retired), so what do I know?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Some of us have no idea what you guys are even NOT talking about; the thread has already been derailed by not talking about what you are talking about 

So what's the deal?

Sounds like a local news issue?

So BC's DIL shook a baby, kid stops breathing, probably thru some alleged spiritual occurrence, starts breathing again, story is told as faith promoting, right?

This is what has been told so far by NOT telling the story

“In December 2016, Sister Cordon said, “life sent me a hurricane of sorrow.” On a family vacation to a Disney theme park, her oldest grandson, 2 ½-year-old Derek, stopped breathing in the middle of the night.

Sister Cordon stayed with the family at the hotel while Derek’s parents rushed to the hospital. She knelt and prayed for him to recover so that he could continue having fun on their trip.

Instead, she received a shocking answer: “As I was praying, the Spirit gently but unmistakably impressed on my mind, ‘Little Derek has returned home to heaven.’””

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2020/2/4/23215865/sister-cordon-byu-devotional-prayer
 

Except the kid was murdered. I’m not sure what kind of “honesty” the church teaches today, but back when I attended “stopped breathing in the middle of the night” is a lie. A big one. 

[Tacenda]

I think more and more jobs are now becoming volunteer positions. In my ward I've received emails of the need for Deseret Industries help such as the dock and other areas. And another for volunteers to clean up a camp area somewhere, forgot. 

And the janitors were all let go several years ago, and members now fill in that need. I wonder how many other jobs that were once filled by paid employees will be filled by volunteers or even missionaries.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Tacenda

[HappyJackWagon]

41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think more and more jobs are now becoming volunteer positions. In my ward I've received emails of the need for Deseret Industries help such as the dock and other areas. And another for volunteers to clean up a camp area somewhere, forgot. 

And the janitors were all let go several years ago, and members now fill in that need. I wonder how many other jobs that were once filled by paid employees will be filled by volunteers or even missionaries.

I imagine the church's payroll is pretty huge. It would be interesting to see that number. But it does seem that the church utilizes a lot of volunteers in what might otherwise be paid positions. I'm sure that helps keep the payroll expenses down but I admit I've always felt bad for people who are called to serve missions at the church office building. Think about how expensive it is to the individual to pay their own way on a mission to SLC from some other part of the country. I'm sure it saves the church money but it might have an even greater cost to the individual/couple.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Except the kid was murdered. I’m not sure what kind of “honesty” the church teaches today, but back when I attended “stopped breathing in the middle of the night” is a lie. A big one. 

The statement is truthful.  Regardless of the cause of death "stopping breathing" is part of it.  In her remarks Sister Cordon seems to be focusing on the answer to her prayer rather than the manner of her grandson's death.  Give the woman a break.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Except the kid was murdered. I’m not sure what kind of “honesty” the church teaches today, but back when I attended “stopped breathing in the middle of the night” is a lie. A big one. 

Thanks!

Glad for the clarification 

[HappyJackWagon]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The statement is truthful.  Regardless of the cause of death "stopping breathing" is part of it.  In her remarks Sister Cordon seems to be focusing on the answer to her prayer rather than the manner of her grandson's death.  Give the woman a break.

I think I'd call it a partial truth intended to deceive.

[katherine the great]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Biology impacts culture big time, I think it is foolish if one is studying cultural development to ignore biology.

Absolutely. As well as culture’s impact on our biology! It’s a little more subtle but very important to milk drinkers everywhere. 😀

[CV75]

19 hours ago, katherine the great said:

What Calm said. My own university has a strong cultural bent to it too but also recognizes the necessity of having robust biological content as well. Maybe I’m a snob but I just can’t see it any other way.

I wouldn't call it snobbery, just a different "taste bud". Just out of curiosity, where does your college rank on @Calm's ranking list?