The bare minimum.

[Calm]

My parents’ addition amounted to a long shed attached to the garage, lined with heavy duty insulation as it was on the southwest side of the house.  You like drama, don’t you?  Everything appears to be over the top with you. 

——

In the Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood manual, a manual from the 80’s and 90’s, the lesson (Home Storage and Self Reliance) refers to a RS lesson from in 1977.  Food storage is promoted as a necessity because some day you will need it, but there is no reference to end times. Instead the example is an earthquake in California in 1971.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/priesthood-and-church-government/lesson-7-self-reliance?lang=eng

”“There is much more that could be said, but the important thing for all of us to remember is that the Lord has told us to store food, water, clothing, and money, because someday we will need them. My testimony is that we did need them. By obeying the commandments given to us by our leaders, we had plenty and enough to share with our wonderful friends and ward members that were forced to leave their homes’” (Relief Society Courses of Study 1977–78, 78–79).”

No guns mentioned either. Instead they were helping each other. 

Purpose of at least one year of food storage:  self reliance…

“The Lord’s plan for Church members to be self-reliant is simple. It is that we do our best to provide for our personal and family needs by developing good work habits; being thrifty; gathering a home supply of items necessary to sustain us for at least one year; planning for our future needs; and maintaining physical, spiritual, emotional, and social health. Self-reliance begins at home, with the individual and the family.”

Another part of the text, no mention of guns or end times, just “times of need”:

”Where legal and when possible, each person and family should have enough food to take care of basic needs for a minimum of one year. This means that we should grow and preserve food and then use and replace that food to avoid spoilage (see lesson 16 in this manual for a discussion on home gardening). We should also know how to make clothing and, if possible, store fuel and medical supplies. Production and storage help us care for ourselves, our own families, and others in times of need. (See Duties and Blessings of the Priesthood, Part A, lesson 22, “Home Production and Storage.”)”

The Church being prepared was about helping in disasters.  They listed a number of occasions it helped others not of the Church.

I remember the occasional end times lessons, but one thing that has always impressed me about the Church is its practical nature and its focus on working with what we have in the here and now to make our life good in the here and now like learning how to sew, garden, and can because it reduced expenses.  Joseph Smith, imo, was attempting to build an extended celestial family not in the future, but in his present and to being Heaven down to earth rather than waiting around till Christ came.  And while there were and are references to end times in talks and lessons about home storage, the much more common lesson for food storage in my experience (which includes the manuals as demonstrated from the above) besides just prudent living were experiences that were happening right then and there, family crises and natural disasters. 

And btw, I looked through the index thinking there would be some reference to the Second Coming because it is one of our focuses, though 100% seems rather exaggerated to me given the percentages of talks, manuals, magazines that don’t even mention it in passing.  My guess is exaltation and the temple are hand in hand with it, not because of “end times” though, but because of looking to Christ.  But no listing for it in that 80’s manual. Lots on being prepared for living life right now.  I have no doubt the Second Coming is actually mentioned in the book, but the great thing about preparing for it is doing it the wise way, the way the Church actually teaches and not the fearmongers, what we do can benefit us immediately. Food storage done right does decrease our costs of living (instead of buying speciality items, buy what we use now when on sale and rotate).

Edited August 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

I just checked my own RS version of Duties that I have had for forty years, The Latter-day Saint Woman. The “Preparing for the Future” lesson has one short paragraph listing four scriptures about calamities in the last days, immediately followed by the question “For what emergencies do we need to prepare?” Suggestions included “death, injury, unemployment, fire, famine”. (It was the manual used for lessons around the world in smaller and new units and there is a lot of basic homemaking and self reliance skills, encouraging literacy and stuff like that as well as the usual Americans are used to hearing.)

So the whole leadership not mentioning family issues as a major reason for home storage in the 80’s and 90’s is looking to me like a failure as I expected (because I actually read these manuals).

Edited August 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

So I am checking out my old FHE manual from 1983.  There is no Second Coming listed in the index, which was very surprising. Lots on Jesus Christ though. Under “Neighbors”, there is “helping in emergencies”.  I wonder if it says “only if they have their own home storage prepared”?

Nope, it didn’t. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[webbles]

57 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

If someone has been offered to accept the gospel and denied the gospel while here in earth, the Celestial Kingdom is no longer in play for them. Correct? 

If someone is offered the gospel and the Holy Ghost testifies it to them and then they reject it, yes.  But we don't know how often that actually happens, only God does.  I don't believe it actually happens all that often on Earth.  We are commanded to preach the gospel but we aren't the ones that are actually offering them the gospel, that is the Holy Ghost.  I suspect that the vast majority of the people that said no to me on my mission never were truly offered the gospel.

[Jerry Atric]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I just checked my own RS version of Duties that I have had for forty years, The Latter-day Saint Woman. The “Preparing for the Future” lesson has one short paragraph listing four scriptures about calamities in the last days, immediately followed by the question “For what emergencies do we need to prepare?” Suggestions included “death, injury, unemployment, fire, famine”. (It was the manual used for lessons around the world in smaller and new units and there is a lot of basic homemaking and self reliance skills, encouraging literacy and stuff like that as well as the usual Americans are used to hearing.)

So the whole leadership not mentioning family issues as a major reason for home storage in the 80’s and 90’s is looking to me like a failure as I expected (because I actually read these manuals).

I think you're forgetting that the official name of our church is, The Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY Saints. This is an end of days church. That's why LATTER-DAY is in the name. This is very simple to understand. You keep going on about what is or isn't in old manuals. It's starting to seem like you're playing a shell game, trying to fool people to look over here when they should be looking over there. So why do I say that? Because all you have to do is speak to anyone who has lost there testimony and more than likely they felt deceived by the church because of what isn't put in OFFICIAL MANUALS for the past 100s of years. Most who lose their testimony feel betrayed in a sense because the very manuals you hold up as evidence for what we're talking about right now, are the same manuals that didn't speak about many aspects of church history, the church history that they never learned about from the manuals you hold so dear. Like many churches, our church has covered up a lot of its negative history.

Do you honestly believe you're going to find information about guns in a church manual? Of course not! That doesn't mean gun culture isn't woven into the fabric of the church. 

I see that you said I like drama. You're the one that insinuated I'm a troll. You're also the one who insinuated my kids are/were abused.  

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

That was funny! I agree that the food storage conversation as of late has gravitated toward needing it for illness or job loss, but everyone knows the brethren didn't encourage storing food incase a family member gets the sniffles. In the 80s and 90s we were storing food because we were preparing for a world that was going to be cleansed with fire. You can't deny that.

Before WW2 most Church members lived in agrarian communities. My grandparents, for example, were in a Mormon settlement in southern Colorado. At harvest time they, like many others, put away food and supplies for the coming year. My mother canned much of our food in the ‘50s from produce she bought from farmers. This all changed after the war as more members moved into urban areas where food production was not convenient or possible. Hence the need for a “year’s supply.”

Let us review.

Heber J Grant 1936

Quote

The announced objective set for the Church under this Program was to provide by October 1, 1936, by a wholly voluntary system of gifts in cash or in kind, sufficient food, fuel, clothing, and bedding to supply through the coming winter, every needy and worthy Church family unable to furnish these for itself, in order that no member of the Church should suffer in these times of stress and emergency.

J Reuben Clark 1937

Quote

This afternoon I wish to speak somewhat concerning matters which are directly related perhaps to the work of relieving our sufferings and our human ills…Let us avoid debt as we would avoid a plague; where we are now in debt let us get out of debt; if not today, then tomorrow. Let us straitly and strictly live within our incomes, and save a little. Let every head of every household see to it that he has on hand enough food and clothing, and, where possible, fuel also, for at least a year ahead.

Harold B Lee 1943

Quote

Then came 1937. The voice of the Lord again spoke through His mouthpiece from this place to Israel. Individuals were told to go beyond Welfare production, putting storage in their own places sufficient for a needed supply. Oh, there were some who sat back in that day, just like the scorners who sat in the house of Lehi's dreams, and pointed fingers of scorn at the Latter-day Saints who heeded that call, and came to a point after the declaration of war when all such were dubbed as hoarders, and were accused of being unpatriotic to the great urge that was being made of this great American nation.

Henry D Taylor 1969

Quote

The Lord expects each individual to care for himself. Faithful Latter-day Saints have traditionally taken pride in maintaining their own independence. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Each individual will strive to live within his income. He will avoid debt as he would a plague. When times are good he will lay a little aside each month in storage of commodities and cash, to provide for the " rainy days. " Then, in the event of ill health, unemployment, or other justifiable conditions, he will have the satisfaction of knowing that he has done all possible to provide for himself.

Barbara Smith 1976

Quote

My dear brothers and sisters, last July six stake Relief Society presidents visited me in my office; they were all from Idaho stakes affected by the Teton flood.
They spoke of the labor and love given by thousands of priesthood volunteers and also of the service of countless Relief Society women who washed, scrubbed, cleaned, prepared food, cared for children, and performed other essential services for victims of that terrible disaster…

I recalled my own visit to the flood area, where I saw a cultural hall with tables with good clothing, clearly sized and marked; another room with neatly stacked food—cans of wheat, dehydrated milk, bottled fruit, nonfood items, all donated by individuals acting in spontaneous compassion and generosity. I remembered the spirit of love and unity, as members in nearby areas not affected by the flood opened their homes and shared their food and other supplies with flood victims.
I thought at the time what a blessing it was that those who had been obedient to the counsel of the Brethren had sufficient personal supplies to share with the flood victims. Through this hard experience, lessons in preparedness and provident living were learned for the entire Church.

Ezra T Benson 1980

Quote

More than ever before, we need to learn and apply the principles of economic self-reliance. We do not know when the crisis involving sickness or unemployment may affect our own circumstances. We do know that the Lord has decreed global calamities for the future and has warned and forewarned us to be prepared. For this reason the Brethren have repeatedly stressed a " back to basics " program for temporal and spiritual welfare. Today, I emphasize a most basic principle: home production and storage. Have you ever paused to realize what would happen to your community or nation if transportation were paralyzed or if we had a war or depression? How would you and your neighbors obtain food? How long would the corner grocery store -- or supermarket -- sustain the needs of the community? 

L Tom Perry 1995

Quote

Acquire and store a reserve of food and supplies that will sustain life. Obtain clothing and build a savings account on a sensible, well-planned basis that can serve well in times of emergency. As long as I can remember, we have been taught to prepare for the future and to obtain a year’s supply of necessities.

All Is Safely Gathered In pamphlet. Today.

Quote

We encourage members worldwide to prepare for adversity in life by having a basic supply of food and water and some money in savings. We ask that you be wise, and do not go to extremes. With careful planning, you can, over time, establish a home storage supply and a financial reserve.

No mention in all the talks on preparedness and storage I reviewed from 1865 to the present of guns and ammo, hoarding for yourself, fear of the Second Coming, etc. Some may take it to the extreme, but there is adequate warning not to do that. People do what they want to do.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because all you have to do is speak to anyone who has lost there testimony and more than likely they felt deceived by the church because of what isn't put in OFFICIAL MANUALS for the past 100s of years. Most who lose their testimony feel betrayed in a sense because the very manuals you hold up as evidence for what we're talking about right now, are the same manuals that didn't speak about many aspects of church history, the church history that they never learned about from the manuals you hold so dear.

Welfare manuals cause people to leave the Church? That’s a new one for me. 

Wait….I think I hear footsteps……

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

If someone has been offered to accept the gospel and denied the gospel while here in earth, the Celestial Kingdom is no longer in play for them. Correct? 

That is an interesting perspective I have never heard. I will be interested to see how others answer you. I assume when you say "the gospel" you are referring to the unique LDS version of the gospel, is that correct? I have certainly never denied the gospel while here in earth. I have declined to be baptized again by the LDS, but I certainly have never denied the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ. Again, I will anxious to read how folks respond. Thanks.

[sunstoned]

On 8/23/2022 at 11:58 AM, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

You might have crossed the line with eating at Olive Garden.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

If someone is offered the gospel and the Holy Ghost testifies it to them and then they reject it, yes.  But we don't know how often that actually happens, only God does.  I don't believe it actually happens all that often on Earth.  We are commanded to preach the gospel but we aren't the ones that are actually offering them the gospel, that is the Holy Ghost.  I suspect that the vast majority of the people that said no to me on my mission never were truly offered the gospel.

I completely agree with this. Being 'offered' the gospel is defined solely by whether the individual receives a witness from the Spirit.

[Jerry Atric]

14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I assume when you say "the gospel" you are referring to the unique LDS version of the gospel, is that correct?

Yes. First I personally believe you have never denied the gospel. But mormon doctrine believes differently if you consider yourself a Christian. Original restored Mormon doctrine teaches Christians were and still are blinded by the craftiness of men. I hate to say it because I'm ashamed to say it, but when I was growing up I saw a Christian preacher and I thought he was a tool of the devil. Mormon doctrine also teaches if you had a chance to accept the "true gospel" meaning modern mormonism, and you didn't/don't accept the "true gospel" you'll make it no further than the middle kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom,  never being able to be in the presence of God. If you go to the churches official website and search Kingdoms of Glory, read who inherits the terrestrial kingdom. It's lackadaisical Mormons and people who denied the true gospel while here on Earth but accepted it in the afterlife. The people who denied the gospel on earth and in heaven can only inherit the lowest kingdom of heaven. 

 

29 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I will anxious to read how folks respond. Thanks.

Me too.

[Jerry Atric]

13 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I completely agree with this. Being 'offered' the gospel is defined solely by whether the individual receives a witness from the Spirit.

We're given individual agency at birth so when we're introduced to the gospel, the Holy Ghost can witness to us the truthfulness of it. If a missionary knocks on your door and says,  hi we're representatives of Jesus Christ, then that person shuts the door, well, I guess they're never making it out of the terrestrial kingdom. Unless you're telling me the Holy Ghost isn't strong enough to witness of the truth while the door is open. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[webbles]

1 minute ago, Jerry Atric said:

We're given individual agency at birth so when we're introduced to the gospel, the Holy Ghost can witness to us the truthfulness of it. If a missionary knocks on your door and says,  hi were representatives of Jesus Christ, then that person shuts the door, well, I guess their never making it out of the terrestrial kingdom. Unless you're telling me the Holy Ghost isn't strong enough to witness of the truth while the door is open. 

Do you think if the church was able to put on the top sites of the internet an ad that said "Hi, we are representatives of Jesus Christ", would that basically condemn everyone who doesn't click on it?

If a person shuts the door on missionaries, that doesn't mean they'll never make it out of the terrestial kingdom.  We have no idea if the Holy Ghost testified to them or not.

[Vanguard]

16 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

We're given individual agency at birth so when we're introduced to the gospel, the Holy Ghost can witness to us the truthfulness of it. If a missionary knocks on your door and says,  hi we're representatives of Jesus Christ, then that person shuts the door, well, I guess they're never making it out of the terrestrial kingdom. Unless you're telling me the Holy Ghost isn't strong enough to witness of the truth while the door is open. 

Really? You're whittling it down to if the individual literally hears from a missionary the words - "...we're representatives of Jesus Christ"?! Egads. I think you're WAY OFF. Though I am game for building a turret on the chapel roof... ;o

Edited to add: Welcome to the forum. I enjoy your energy though you'll probably burn yourself out (and especially if you don't gain any 'converts' to your passionate views) in short order unless you moderate. : )

Edited August 27, 2022 by Vanguard

[webbles]

Here's a quote from Elder Theodore M. Burton who was an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles when he said it:

Quote

There are many in this world who lived and died without ever having an opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. We know that there are many men and women who die unbaptized, because some teacher, missionary, or leader who should have taught them was so poorly trained, so lacking in faith, and so unprepared to bear personal witness of Jesus Christ that the hearer never understood the message as he should have done. Should such people be damned forever for lack of proper instruction, because of an accident of birth, or because of the inadequacies of others? I say: ‘No!’ God is a God of justice and love and mercy. Every man is entitled to a just chance to know and accept Jesus Christ or to reject him if he feels the price of acceptance is too high

I found the quote in the D&C Student Manual - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-76-the-vision-of-the-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng

I fully agree with the last statement.  God is a God of justice and love and mercy.  He's not going to condemn a person unless that person was given a "just chance to know and accept Jesus Christ".

[Vanguard]

7 minutes ago, webbles said:

I fully agree with the last statement.  God is a God of justice and love and mercy.  He's not going to condemn a person unless that person was given a "just chance to know and accept Jesus Christ".

Yes, but our new poster seems to think hearing the declarative, "We're representatives of Jesus Christ" is that just chance!

Edited August 27, 2022 by Vanguard

[Jerry Atric]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Welfare manuals cause people to leave the Church? That’s a new one for me. 

Wait….I think I hear footsteps……

I find it hysterical that you and Calm deny why we as Mormons actually store food, guns, ammo, money, alcohol, gold, silver, clothes, first aid, water and numerous other items. Every generation of Mormons since Joseph was alive has thought they we're the generation that's going to usher in the second coming. Every generation of Mormons for the past 190 some years thought they would see Jesus walk the earth. You don't find it a little comical when you say we're storing all this stuff incase there's a day we lose our job, or get a boo boo? I do. Considering we're LATTER DAY SAINTS. 

We've been told our whole lives we're the chosen generation, and calamities are right around the corner. Here,  read this

"Youth of Zion, do you realize you are living in the days of the fulfillment of these signs and wonders? You are among those who will see many of these prophecies fulfilled. Just as certain as was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, so shall these words of the Savior be certain to your generation... You will live in the midst of economic, political and spiritual instability. When you see these signs – unmistakable evidences that His coming is nigh – be not troubled, but ‘stand... in holy places...” These holy places consist of our temples, our chapels, our homes and the stakes of Zion, which are as the Lord declares, ‘for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from the wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth'... We have every confidence that you, ‘the rising generation,' will not falter. I repeat: You were valiant spirits reserved for this exceptional time. You have but one choice: To rise to the task of history's most significant hour!”

 

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, “Prepare Yourselves for the Great Day of the Lord," address delivered to the Devotional Assembly, Ricks College, Idaho, September 16, 1980

 

You and Calm keep harping on me about how I believe guns are part of our mormonness, but right there it says how our chapels are for refuge and for a defense. How do you and Calm plan to take refuge and defend your fellow Mormons if you're at a chapel during these tumultuous times? Do you plan to throw dehydrated apricots at an intruder that's trying to steal all the food storage? Maybe a slingshot and a handful of freeze dried blueberries? 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

If someone has been offered to accept the gospel and denied the gospel while here in earth, the Celestial Kingdom is no longer in play for them. Correct? 

Incorrect, if they have been led astray by sophistry.

You know, like here. 🙄

[Jerry Atric]

19 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Really? You're whittling it down to if the individual literally hears from a missionary the words - "...we're representatives of Jesus Christ"?! Egads. I think you're WAY OFF. Though I am game for building a turret on the chapel roof... ;o

Edited to add: Welcome to the forum. I enjoy your energy though you'll probably burn yourself out (and especially if you don't gain any 'converts' to your passionate views) in short order unless you moderate. : )

Red Bull. Lots of Red Bull. It gives you wings!

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Incorrect, if they have been led astray by sophistry.

You know, like here. 🙄

So, you’re saying I can use the “it’s Mark’s fault” card? 😂

[Jerry Atric]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Incorrect, if they have been led astray by sophistry.

You know, like here. 🙄

D&C 76 tells exactly who inherits what kingdom. The terrestrial is for jack mormons and people who knew about the gospel but didn't accept it on earth but they accepted the gospel in the spirit world. Correct?

 

 

 

[webbles]

8 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I find it hysterical that you and Calm deny why we as Mormons actually store food, guns, ammo, money, alcohol, gold, silver, clothes, first aid, water and numerous other items. Every generation of Mormons since Joseph was alive has thought they we're the generation that's going to usher in the second coming. Every generation of Mormons for the past 190 some years thought they would see Jesus walk the earth. You don't find it a little comical when you say we're storing all this stuff incase there's a day we lose our job, or get a boo boo? I do. Considering we're LATTER DAY SAINTS. 

I've grown up as a saint.  I have never stored guns or ammo.  Definitely not alcohol.  The only gold/silver that I've seen stored is because my father was paid in literal silver bullion.  The food, first aid, water, etc were for two reasons.  The first and foremost reason was for self-sufficiency.  The second reason is in case of emergencies.  The second coming falls under the second case.  I was never taught or thought that we stored just for the second coming.  When the second coming comes, we will probably need it.

I do know a few people, though, who do focus on the second coming.  In our conversations, we can discuss the handcart idea (pulling handcarts back to Missouri), the "wall of water" (somehow a wall of water will reach Utah from one of the two oceans), living in the mountains, etc (chapels as a defensive position is a new one to me, though).  None of these ideas have ever felt widespread.  They don't come up in Sunday School or Priesthood classes.  I've never heard of them from General Authorities.

[Jerry Atric]

41 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Really? You're whittling it down to if the individual literally hears from a missionary the words - "...we're representatives of Jesus Christ"?! Egads. I think you're WAY OFF

Serious question,  because I don't know. Then when? Is it after meeting the missionaries twice, three times,  after attending church? When is it enough time to accept the gospel or deny it?

 

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[webbles]

15 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Serious question,  because I don't know. Then when? Is it after meeting the missionaries twice, three times,  after attending church? When is it enough time to accept the gospel or deny it?

 

 

When they've had a witness that it is true and that they need to accept it.  That could be the first time or it could be 100th time.  It could be after they've died.  A person could have gone to church every week of their life and never be baptized and still not have had a "true chance" to accept it.  It is unique to each person.

[Navidad]

Given the direction of the thread, I would like to seek clarification. When, according to LDS eschatology will the decision be made as to which of the three kingdoms + three levels of the Celestial kingdom a person will live in for eternity? My faith teaches that the decision about one's eternal destiny is not made until the judgment seat of Christ where we all will give an account and be judged once and for all. Is that different from LDS eschatology? Christ is the one who will be the final judge, right? --"No man cometh unto the Father but by me." I think we all believe that. If we are in agreement that Christ will make that final assignment at the judgment seat, do the LDS folks have confidence that they have a rather complete understanding of how Christ will make the final judgment, the criteria He will use for that assignment, and the authority and agency He will have in doing so? Thanks!