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How Quickly We Conform


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2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

While I understand, I think, the caution regarding not being too exclusivist or too "look-down-our-noses-at-others"-ish with regard to our use of language (and I do think that point has a certain amount of merit), on the other hand, perhaps, if we can be persuaded to speak like a Zion people, we will be one step (albeit a small step, but a step nonetheless) closer to being a Zion people.

You're welcome to join us if you like, Fair Dinkum. ;) 

I was kind of a jerk- what's new- but it gets old

Thanks for saying it as I should have. 

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9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I’m surprised and yet not really with how fast believers in Mormonism adapt and change and drop words from their vocabulary once it’s been deemed forbidden  or add words and phrases that GAs promote 

Oi.

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

for example the word Mormon has almost become a pejorative to use the word in polite conversation with believers any more  I’ve been chastised and corrected multiple time when referring to the church as the Mormon church  and yet prior to president Nelson’s declaration declaring the word  as assisting satan it was quite normal for believers to refer to the church as the Mormon church  

I think it is broadly customary to allow a group to decide whether to accept or decline a pejorative or inaccurate or disfavored label.  "Mormon" certainly started out that way.

I'm reasonably confident that you do not use words like "Negro," "Jesus Freak," "Papist," "Jap," "Fag," "Raghead," "Kraut," "Gypsy," "Dothead," "Paddy," "Dago," etc.  Seems like all of these are "out of favor" as to their target groups, or outright slurs (though "in-group" usage can happen with some of them).  If a person is asked by a member of one of these groups to refrain from using the corresponding reference, should he acquiesce?  Or should he persist in using these terms despite the labeled person's protestations?

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

another example is covenant path. It’s a phrase that has recently become popular 

We talked about this back in April.  It does not seem to be catching on that much.    

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

still another is ponderize it was popular then not so much after it was disclosed that the GA who promoted it was profiting from it

I don't think it was ever "popular."

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

why do members so readily accept these words and phrases into their vernacular?  Seems very insular and bizarre  

You haven't provided much in the way of examples of this.  If anything, your examples go against your point. 

"Ponderize" was, as Nehor noted in April, "mostly a stillbirth."  I have not heard it used a single time by any Latter-day Saint.

"Covenant path" has gained a little traction, but not much.  I actually like it quite a lot.

Phrases and aphorisms like this come and go with any group.  For the Latter-day Saints, we have things like "Choose the Right," "Lengthen Your Stride," "Every Member a Missionary," "Families are Forever," "No Success can Compensate for Failure in the Home" (this one really resonated with Taiwanese when I was a missionary 29 years ago).

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

reminds me of the Borg and a collective mind.

A relentless horde of cyborgs bent on the annihilation of cultures and appropriation of their technology, together with the violent assault on the bodies of those they conquer.

You're veering into Godwin's Law territory here.  Not impressed.

9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Individualism has been abandoned 

Nonsense.

Thanks,

-Smac

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The use of the word "Mormon" is ubiquitous here in Mexico. The greatest challenge is that it is used to refer to both the LDS folks and all or any groups, especially Anglo groups that are thought of in the same way. Here it is a culture (celebrated as one of four cultures in the Nuevo Casas Grandes municipio), a nationality (North American), a tribal identity (anyone who "looks" Mormon), and probably last, a religion. The same goes for Mennonites here with the only differentiator being dress. 

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8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Because they know the restored Church of Jesus Christ is true and that it’s being led by living prophets who are inspired of God to know what to emphasize and what not to emphasize, at any given point in time, on the way to the Second Coming of the Savior, something unbelievers will never be able to understand because the doings of God can only be discerned and comprehended by the Spirit of God. Enjoy being perplexed and incredulous as you kick against the pricks.

that has nothing to do with it. Why and how people conform, and so quickly, has long been a subject that has been tested out again and again in universities-going back decades now. You don't have to believe is right what you're doing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Edited by Duncan
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16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that has nothing to do with it. Why and how people conform, and so quickly, has long been a subject that has been tested out again and again in universities-going back decades now. You don't have to believe is right what you're doing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Conformity/obedience is valued in the church. It doesn't mean that people have lost their individuality, but when church leaders say something, members tend to adopt it quickly. 

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13 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

While I understand, I think, the caution regarding not being too exclusivist or too "look-down-our-noses-at-others"-ish with regard to our use of language (and I do think that point has a certain amount of merit), on the other hand, perhaps, if we can be persuaded to speak like a Zion people, we will be one step (albeit a small step, but a step nonetheless) closer to being a Zion people.

You're welcome to join us if you like, Fair Dinkum. ;) 

The deal is, I had no clue that Mormons were even Christians.

They worshipped some Indian named Mormon who wrote his own bible on gold plates, and other Indian Saints.  Everybody knows that! How stupid could you be???  ;)

🤓😉

Edited by mfbukowski
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11 hours ago, Duncan said:

that has nothing to do with it. Why and how people conform, and so quickly, has long been a subject that has been tested out again and again in universities-going back decades now. You don't have to believe is right what you're doing. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Quote

More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:4

How much the individual agrees with the orders

How much they identify with the person giving the orders

While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. 

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243

Not quite nothing to do with it….

Obedience to prophets is more likely if you already agree with the commandment as taught and/or identify with those who are teaching it…part of identifying with could be believing and experiencing them as prophets, in part because you too have received revelation. 

Edited by Calm
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The church is a world wide church and so, I think that you would still find members abroad  use the word Mormon. It is really no big deal. To say the full name of the church is a mouthful. And when a person does say the full name, the person being told will ask: what kind of church is that? And eventually the word Mormon will come out. If not, and the person being told does come to church, he or she will say why didn't you tell me it was the Mormon church. It is a no winner.

 

Edited by why me
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Humans are so conforming that ,because certain words are now so offensive ,  ( some of which were so kindly listed in a previous post ) , that we must now use " the n word " ,or " the f word " or " the c word " instead ,  even though I recon the actual word runs through the speaker's and the listener's mind anyway . 

Mormon youth use ' friggin' as a replacement . My mission used the fine BoM word ' dross '  as a replacement . 

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On 8/18/2022 at 2:41 PM, bluebell said:

It would be weird if it wasn't happening.

We see it all the time in our culture.  How long ago was it when "woke" or "microaggression" or "snowflake" or "yeet" weren't used by anyone, and now they are popular phrases that you here all the time.  

In general, humans so readily accept new words and phrases into our vernacular because that's how language and culture work.  It's true for our culture at large and for church culture as well.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/504338/how-new-words-become-mainstream

As far as the usage of the name Mormon.  That's different from the other examples that you gave, and probably more akin to those words in our culture that were once socially acceptable to use (like the terms "retarded" or "disabled" or something similar) and then suddenly weren't. 

This change is often because someone who has been given cultural authority (doctors, scholars, social media influencers, popular bloggers...or for church culture, Prophets, apostles, and other leaders) makes it a point to get people to stop using a term because they believe it to be offensive in some way.

 

That language evolves over time is not in question. But to have words and phrases become forbidden or popular in the space of one weekend due to the comments of one or two men now that is unique wouldn’t you agree?  And that’s what we find within Mormonism. We went from having multimillion ad buys to a word being banned from polite conversation in a single weekend. That’s just weird

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23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Because they know the restored Church of Jesus Christ is true and that it’s being led by living prophets who are inspired of God to know what to emphasize and what not to emphasize, at any given point in time, on the way to the Second Coming of the Savior, something unbelievers will never be able to understand because the doings of God can only be discerned and comprehended by the Spirit of God. Enjoy being perplexed and incredulous as you kick against the pricks.

Do you strike a dramatic pose when you type these posts?

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9 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

That language evolves over time is not in question. But to have words and phrases become forbidden or popular in the space of one weekend due to the comments of one or two men now that is unique wouldn’t you agree?  And that’s what we find within Mormonism. We went from having multimillion ad buys to a word being banned from polite conversation in a single weekend. That’s just weird

When is the last time you heard someone say “do a Backrub (Google) search”?  Brands change all the time.  The President/CEO decides that they don’t want to use a word anymore to represent their organization, and voila people obey instantly.  It usually happens a lot quicker and more efficient/completely/absolutely than it has happened with “Mormon”.  The church has tried unsuccessfully to ditch the name multiple times in the past.  Mormon is still used commonly, even in the church.  I see it used on here all the time.  

Not that unusual.

It is also not unique for words or phrases to be popularized over night due to a celebrities use.  “Toast” as a synonym for dead - as in “this chick is toast!” - was first coined by Bill Murray, and was actually ad-libbed in Ghostbusters.  It was trending over night and has never left our vocabulary.   There are tons of examples like that.

We are not unusual at all in cultural language adoption beginning with popular figures or brand changing.

 

Edited by pogi
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5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think your bias is coloring your perception a lot here.

Ponderize never became popular.  It became a small scandal, and then it pretty much disappeared except in jokes. 

And it's not even a word. 

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Not sure what other word or phrase you could possible argue has become popular in one weekend. 

And mormon certainly isn't forbidden.  Look at the number of very active and believing members on here who still use it (either occasionally or just all the time).  That's not how a word being forbidden works.

If anything is weird in this thread, it's the OP.  It really just makes no sense.  

 

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8 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think your bias is coloring your perception a lot here.

Ponderize never became popular.  It became a small scandal, and then it pretty much disappeared except in jokes.  Not sure what other word or phrase you could possible argue has become popular in one weekend. 

And mormon certainly isn't forbidden.  Look at the number of very active and believing members on here who still use it (either occasionally or just all the time).  That's not how a word being forbidden works.

If anything is weird in this thread, it's the OP.  It really just makes no sense.  

If President Nelson came out and declared that Members ‘offend’ Jesus and please the devil when they use the term ‘Ice cream’ Mormons would comply and abandon the use of the word Ice cream

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On 8/19/2022 at 11:17 AM, mfbukowski said:

The deal is, I had no clue that Mormons were even Christians.

They worshipped some Indian named Mormon who wrote his own bible on gold plates, and other Indian Saints.  Everybody knows that! How stupid could you be???  ;)

🤓😉

Compared to past efforts I’ve been very impressed with the most recent anti “Mormon” push. I think if Nelson’s successors don’t reverse course, it has a real chance of success in the main stream in a decade or two. The turning point was definitely the commitment shown in ditching the “Mormon” brand, it’s SEO capabilities on social media. They renamed the choir, the newsroom, social media, websites etc. Nelson definitely means business. For myself, I still call myself exmormon, but refer to my active believing friends as Latter-day Saints as they prefer. 

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3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Compared to past efforts I’ve been very impressed with the most recent anti “Mormon” push. I think if Nelson’s successors don’t reverse course, it has a real chance of success in the main stream in a decade or two. The turning point was definitely the commitment shown in ditching the “Mormon” brand, it’s SEO capabilities on social media. They renamed the choir, the newsroom, social media, websites etc. Nelson definitely means business. For myself, I still call myself exmormon, but refer to my active believing friends as Latter-day Saints as they prefer. 

The key is understanding postmodernism.

Prager, the other AM, was bemoaning about how postmodernism had replaced God and commandments and absolute truth with just "the conscience" - even atheists believe in that- it's relativistic and therefore irreligious.

YET we call the conscience "the still small voice" aka the Holy Spirit and personal revelation

Postmodernism is nothing to fear.  It also makes visions "real".

Reality is what we EXPERIENCE, not some realm beyond.  And we experience that voice.

And THAT paradigm always works and is therefore is eternally true.

It's just seeing it properly from a subjective viewpoint.

Spirituality cannot be objectively true, that should be obvious.  It cannot be measured and agreed upon objectively 

Edited by mfbukowski
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It just occurred to me that we're having a discussion about how quickly or not members of the Church have stopped using the term "Mormon," and yet, here we all are at mormondialogue.org.  I'm not sure if I should consider myself a heretic or not.

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15 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If President Nelson came out and declared that Members ‘offend’ Jesus and please the devil when they use the term ‘Ice cream’ Mormons would comply and abandon the use of the word Ice cream

Pres Nelson did not simply come out and declare “Mormon” as offending Jesus and pleasing the devil. Nor did he randomly chose a phrase to target. He gave his reasoning and backed it with scripture. 

If Christ tells us to call his church one name and we ignore him and call it another, I am not sure we offend him, but we can hardly be pleasing him. And it is an insult to ignore Christ’s instruction in this, imo. 

Edited by Calm
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11 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If President Nelson came out and declared that Members ‘offend’ Jesus and please the devil when they use the term ‘Ice cream’ Mormons would comply and abandon the use of the word Ice cream

Ice cream sundaes are a parody of the Holy Sabbath. The sooner we ban them the better.

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