Interview with LDS Farnsworth who defeated LDS Rusty Bowers, Jan 6. Witness, in Arizona

[Kevin Christensen]

Personally, I find this rather depressing.  I had been impressed by Rusty Bowers during the Jan. 6 hearings.  His replacement?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spent-two-half-hours-david-130000672.html

In particular, the conviction regarding election fraud without facts to back it up ("Farnsworth also said he has "no doubt" that the 2020 election was stolen, but was up-front in declaring that he personally has no evidence to back up that assertion."), and this:

Quote

By the time our conversation reached the one-hour mark, Farnsworth had produced a large, well-worn, marked-up copy of the Book of Mormon from his shelf, and was reciting passages from it while explaining how scripture influenced his way of thinking.

He began with one chapter detailing the struggle between "freemen" and "King-men" among the Nephites, a group that settled in the Americas hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus Christ, according to Mormon teachings. He likened that dichotomy to "freedom-loving people" and "socialists" in modern-day America.

Notice that he applies the story of the Freemen and King-men modern America, casting "socialists" in the role of Amalekiah and his coalition, and in the role of Moroni, Trump?

If we look to the Book of Mormon account, and Nibley's close reading in "Freemen and Kingmen in the Book of Mormon" we find these details, which, I think are not at all difficult to liken to current circumstances:

In the Nibley essay on the topic in The Prophetic Book of Mormon, he notes Amalekiah, a large and imposing man noted for ambition, pride and flattering speech was the candidate of the Kingmen, and he lost when "the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen" (Alma 51:7), the kingmen refused to accept defeat.  (Nibley, 329.)
The kingmen were those distinguished by "their exceeding great riches" (Alma 45:24), and were "exceeding wroth" that is, a hate group.  They wanted monarchy and were "of high birth, and sought to be kings" (Alma 51:8)--everyone one in line for the throne.  (Nibley 333).  There were those who "professed the blood of nobility" (Alma 51:21), their friends, kindred, lawyers and high priests" and many members of the church who "believed in the flattering words of Amalekiah" (Alma 46:7). A  Also see Nibley, 370.   Yeah how could that describing anyone but modern socialists?  Ugh.  Why even think of "bearing one another's burdens that they may light" or having all things in common, and covenanting to personally "keep the commandments of God" when in the real world "A man prospers by his strength and whatsoever a man does is no crime." (Alma 30:17).

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Kevin Christensen
typo

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

In the Nibley essay on the topic in The Prophetic Book of Mormon, he notes Amalekiah, a large and imposing man noted for ambition, pride and flattering speech was the candidate of the Kingmen, and he lost when "the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen" (Alma 51:7), the kingmen refused to accept defeat.  (Nibley, 329.)
The kingmen were those distinguished by "their exceeding great riches" (Alma 45:24), and where "exceeding wroth" that is, a hate group.  They wanted monarchy and were "of high birth, and sought to be kings" (Alma 51:8)--everyone one in line for the throne.  (Nibley 333).  There were those who "professed the blood of nobility" (Alma 51:21), their friends, kindred, lawyers and high priests" and many members of the church who "believed in the flattering words of Amalekiah" (Alma 46:7). A  Also see Nibley, 370.   Yeah how could that describing anyone but modern socialists?  Ugh.  Why even think of "bearing one another's burdens that they may light" or having all things in common, and covenanting to personally "keep the commandments of God" when in the real world "A man prospers by his strength and whatsoever a man does is no crime." (Alma 30:17).

Oddly prophetic, wouldn't you say?

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Personally, I find this rather depressing.  I had been impressed by Rusty Bowers during the Jan. 6 hearings.  His replacement?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spent-two-half-hours-david-130000672.html

In particular, the conviction regarding election fraud without facts to back it up ("Farnsworth also said he has "no doubt" that the 2020 election was stolen, but was up-front in declaring that he personally has no evidence to back up that assertion."), and this:

Notice that he applies the story of the Freemen and King-men modern America, casting "socialists" in the role of Amalekiah and his coalition, and in the role of Moroni, Trump?

If we look to the Book of Mormon account, and Nibley's close reading in "Freemen and Kingmen in the Book of Mormon" we find these details, which, I think are not at all difficult to liken to current circumstances:

In the Nibley essay on the topic in The Prophetic Book of Mormon, he notes Amalekiah, a large and imposing man noted for ambition, pride and flattering speech was the candidate of the Kingmen, and he lost when "the voice of the people came in favor of the freemen" (Alma 51:7), the kingmen refused to accept defeat.  (Nibley, 329.)
The kingmen were those distinguished by "their exceeding great riches" (Alma 45:24), and where "exceeding wroth" that is, a hate group.  They wanted monarchy and were "of high birth, and sought to be kings" (Alma 51:8)--everyone one in line for the throne.  (Nibley 333).  There were those who "professed the blood of nobility" (Alma 51:21), their friends, kindred, lawyers and high priests" and many members of the church who "believed in the flattering words of Amalekiah" (Alma 46:7). A  Also see Nibley, 370.   Yeah how could that describing anyone but modern socialists?  Ugh.  Why even think of "bearing one another's burdens that they may light" or having all things in common, and covenanting to personally "keep the commandments of God" when in the real world "A man prospers by his strength and whatsoever a man does is no crime." (Alma 30:17).

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA 

I think I'm gonna be sick.🤢

[Tacenda]

While watching this, it made me think of this topic. There is a great need for the truth to be forefront in all our lives for democracy's sake. 

 

[longview]

Bowers is an ally of Lez Cheney.  Good that he was defeated.

[ttribe]

6 hours ago, longview said:

Bowers is an ally of Lez Cheney.  Good that he was defeated.

If by 'ally' you mean they both told the truth, then I guess you're right.

Farnsworth is a loon. I'm so disappointed in my state right now.

ETA: The intentional "Lez" misspelling is pretty classless.

Edited August 11, 2022 by ttribe

[rodheadlee]

Has anyone read the book 2000 Mules? Or seen the movie. Supposedly it lays out how the steal was done.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Has anyone read the book 2000 Mules? Or seen the movie. Supposedly it lays out how the steal was done.

They are claiming that 2000 votes were illegally dropped off by ballot harvesters.  They claim to prove it by tracking anonymous cell phones.

Quote

ight drop off multiple ballots, according to experts.

“Ballot harvesting” is a pejorative term for dropping off completed ballots for people besides yourself. The practice is legal in several states but largely illegal in the states True the Vote focused on, with some exceptions for family, household members and people with disabilities. 

True the Vote has said it found some 2,000 ballot harvesters by purchasing $2 million worth of anonymized cellphone geolocation data — the “pings” that track a person’s location based on app activity — in various swing counties across five states. Then, by drawing a virtual boundary around a county’s ballot drop boxes and various unnamed nonprofits, it identified cellphones that repeatedly went near both ahead of the 2020 election.

If a cellphone went near a drop box more than 10 times and a nonprofit more than five times from Oct. 1 to Election Day, True the Vote assumed its owner was a “mule” — its name for someone engaged in an illegal ballot collection scheme in cahoots with a nonprofit. 

The group’s claims of a paid ballot harvesting scheme are supported in the film only by one unidentified whistleblower said to be from San Luis, Arizona, who said she saw people picking up what she “assumed” to be payments for ballot collection. The film contains no evidence of such payments in other states in 2020.

 

Quote

Plus, experts say cellphone location data, even at its most advanced, can only reliably track a smartphone within a few meters — not close enough to know whether someone actually dropped off a ballot or just walked or drove nearby.

“You could use cellular evidence to say this person was in that area, but to say they were at the ballot box, you’re stretching it a lot,” said Aaron Striegel, a professor of computer science and engineering at the University of Notre Dame. “There’s always a pretty healthy amount of uncertainty that comes with this.”

What’s more, ballot drop boxes are often intentionally placed in busy areas, such as college campuses, libraries, government buildings and apartment complexes — increasing the likelihood that innocent citizens got caught in the group’s dragnet, Striegel said.

Similarly, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might be visiting both a nonprofit’s office and one of those busy areas. Delivery drivers, postal workers, cab drivers, poll workers and elected officials all have legitimate reasons to cross paths with numerous drop boxes or nonprofits in a given day.

True the Vote has said it filtered out people whose “pattern of life” before the election season included frequenting nonprofit and drop box locations. But that strategy wouldn’t filter out election workers who spend more time at drop boxes during the election season, cab drivers whose daily paths don’t follow a pattern, or people whose routines recently changed. 

In some states, in an attempt to bolster its claims, True the Vote also highlighted drop box surveillance footage that showed voters depositing multiple ballots into the boxes. However, there was no way to tell whether those voters were the same people as the ones whose cellphones were anonymously tracked.

A video of a voter dropping off a stack of ballots at a drop box is not itself proof of any wrongdoing, since most states have legal exceptions that let people drop off ballots on behalf of family members and household members. 

For example, Larry Campbell, a voter in Michigan who was not featured in the film, told The Associated Press he legally dropped off six ballots in a local drop box in 2020 — one for himself, his wife, and his four adult children. And in Georgia, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger’s office investigated one of the surveillance videos circulated by True the Vote and said it found the man was dropping off ballots for himself and his family.

 

Quote

Pennsylvania state Sen. Sharif Street, who was there for the group’s testimony in March, told the AP he was confident he was counted as several of the group’s 1,155 anonymous “mules,” even though he didn’t deposit anything into a drop box in that time period.

Street said he based his assessment on the fact that he carries a cellphone, a watch with a cellular connection, a tablet with a cellular connection and a mobile hotspot — four devices whose locations can be tracked by private companies. He also said he typically travels with a staffer who carries two devices, bringing the total on his person to six. 

During the 2020 election season, Street said, he brought those devices on trips to nonprofit offices and drop box rallies. He also drove by one drop box up to seven or eight times a day when traveling between his two political offices.

“I did no ballot stuffing, but over the course of time, I literally probably account for hundreds and hundreds of their unique visits, even though I’m a single actor in a single vehicle moving back and forth in my ordinary course of business,” Street said.

 

I don’t see how they could eliminate for sure people who live or work in the area having to pass by a drop box or Nonprofit multiple times a month given the anonymity of the phones, especially if their behaviour was different than usual because their life was affected by the election.  Not everyone goes the identical route home all the time due to errand running, traffic, bordom.  I could have been one of them if they tried it in my location because the library drop off box is next to the ballot box drop off iirc and I go in bursts, so timing could have me reading a series so hitting the library a couple of times a week.  If there were a Starbucks nearby, you could have people making daily coffee runs but taking turns with others randomly (who was free) so no pattern the month before.

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-covid-technology-health-arizona-e1b49d2311bf900f44fa5c6dac406762

Edited August 12, 2022 by Calm

[Kevin Christensen]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:18 PM, rodheadlee said:

Has anyone read the book 2000 Mules? Or seen the movie. Supposedly it lays out how the steal was done.

The operative word is "supposedly."  Reuters, among others, fact-checked the claims.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-usa-mules/fact-check-does-2000-mules-provide-evidence-of-voter-fraud-in-the-2020-u-s-presidential-election-idUSL2N2XJ0OQ

And of course, there were all sorts of authentication checks and recounts and such that led people who care about evidence to conclude that the 2020 election was the most secure ever, and that there is no evidence of fraud significant enough to have changed the results.  

Gossip and insinuation is not the same thing as demonstration, as Shakespeare's Othello learned, tragically too late, as did a fellow named Ricky Schiffer in Ohio, who tried to shoot up FBI offices in Cincinnati.  Lynch mobs and courts of law have rather different standards for determining truth.  

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited August 18, 2022 by Kevin Christensen
typo

[Danzo]

15 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Has anyone read the book 2000 Mules? Or seen the movie. Supposedly it lays out how the steal was done.

If Trump, being president of the United States wasn't competent enough to stop this "conspiracy" or even gather enough evidence to survive in court by Judges that he chose, Then that makes him one of the most incompetent people one could chose for a president.  What makes anyone think he could do any better next time. 

What a looser.

[rodheadlee]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

They are claiming that 2000 votes were illegally dropped off by ballot harvesters.  They claim to prove it by tracking anonymous cell phones.

 

 

I don’t see how they could eliminate for sure people who live or work in the area having to pass by a drop box or Nonprofit multiple times a month given the anonymity of the phones, especially if their behaviour was different than usual because their life was affected by the election.  Not everyone goes the identical route home all the time due to errand running, traffic, bordom.  I could have been one of them if they tried it in my location because the library drop off box is next to the ballot box drop off iirc and I go in bursts, so timing could have me reading a series so hitting the library a couple of times a week.  If there were a Starbucks nearby, you could have people making daily coffee runs but taking turns with others randomly (who was free) so no pattern the month before.

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-covid-technology-health-arizona-e1b49d2311bf900f44fa5c6dac406762

Thanks, I was just curious. Not willing to spend any resources to check it out.

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

If Trump, being president of the United States wasn't competent enough to stop this "conspiracy" or even gather enough evidence to survive in court by Judges that he chose, Then that makes him one of the most incompetent people one could chose for a president.  What makes anyone think he could do any better next time. 

What a looser.

Yeah self sufficient affordable energy, a 30% pay raise, secure borders, peace treaties being signed in the middle east. These are all terrible things. Now I'm unemployed and on the dole. 🙄

Edited August 12, 2022 by rodheadlee

[Chum]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

They claim to prove it by tracking anonymous cell phones.

Yeah. That. LoL. Anyone who's worked with cell tower triangulation knows that it's precision is a good fit for when you want to deploy a large-yield nuclear device.

Monitoring someone live via cellular triangulation is entertaining, with their icon constantly jumping between locations that are miles apart.

[ttribe]

23 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah self sufficient affordable energy, a 30% pay raise, secure borders, peace treaties being signed in the middle east. These are all terrible things. Now I'm unemployed and on the dole. 🙄

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe any sitting President has that dramatic an effect on the economy (especially globally), you don't have a solid understanding of macroeconomics.

[Chum]

19 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Has anyone read the book 2000 Mules? Or seen the movie.

I hear it's the best feel-good smash romcom since Birth Of A Nation.

[rodheadlee]

27 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe any sitting President has that dramatic an effect on the economy (especially globally), you don't have a solid understanding of macroeconomics.

Of course not. I'm a carpenter. I have a solid understanding of home building. Doubling the price of materials kills jobs. I suppose eventually it'll even out. These things were just a coincidence. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by rodheadlee

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Of course not. I'm a carpenter. I have a solid understanding of home building. Doubling the price of materials kills jobs. I suppose eventually it'll even out. These things were just a coincidence. 

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, the increases in building materials (and fuel for that matter) have nothing to do with a single President's policies under either Biden or Trump. You are mistaking correlation for causation. There are many, many more factors in play. If you really want to hear about it, I'd be glad to help, but not if your mind is made up to blame whatever political candidate you don't like and not if you're just going to play snarky games with me.

[rodheadlee]

24 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Your sarcasm notwithstanding, the increases in building materials (and fuel for that matter) have nothing to do with a single President's policies under either Biden or Trump. You are mistaking correlation for causation. There are many, many more factors in play. If you really want to hear about it, I'd be glad to help, but not if your mind is made up to blame whatever political candidate you don't like and not if you're just going to play snarky games with me.

Well Biden signed 42 executive orders in the first hundred days of his term. Most of these undoing everything Trump had done. I'm sure these had no effect on supply and demand and the manufacturing shortfall due to the pandemic. So with demand high and supply low prices were bound to go up. Am I close?

The influx of all the cheap labor willing to try and do my job for half the price isn't going to help anything either. I've been through this in the 1980s. It takes about 10 years for them to demand the same money as a journeyman carpenter gets.

Edited August 12, 2022 by rodheadlee

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Well Biden signed 42 executive orders in the first hundred days of his term. Most of these undoing everything Trump had done. I'm sure these had no effect on supply and demand and the manufacturing shortfall due to the pandemic. So with demand high and supply low prices were bound to go up. Am I close?

The influx of all the cheap labor willing to try and do my job for half the price isn't going to help anything either. I've been through this in the 1980s. It takes about 10 years for them to demand the same money as a journeyman carpenter gets.

Can you point to a single executive order that had an "effect on supply and demand and the manufacturing shortfall due to the pandemic?"

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah self sufficient affordable energy, a 30% pay raise, secure borders, peace treaties being signed in the middle east. These are all terrible things. Now I'm unemployed and on the dole. 🙄

Has nothing to do with the idea that not only did he not have ability to stop an election steal (according to him) he didn't even have the ability to document it.  What a loser. 

 

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Thanks, I was just curious. Not willing to spend any resources to check it out.

Apparently neither did anyone else. 

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yeah self sufficient affordable energy, a 30% pay raise, secure borders, peace treaties being signed in the middle east. These are all terrible things. Now I'm unemployed and on the dole. 🙄

Businesses are begging people to work for them in my part of the country. If you need a job. 

[Danzo]

50 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Can you point to a single executive order that had an "effect on supply and demand and the manufacturing shortfall due to the pandemic?"

Just to be fair, the American rescue plan that Biden signed is pretty much universally acknowledged to have increased demand and contributed to inflation. (also the Cares act and similar acts signed by Trump did the same).

The combination of telling people to stay home (reduce productivity and supply), and giving away money (increasing demand) is the classic recipe for inflation. 

[ttribe]

15 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Just to be fair, the American rescue plan that Biden signed is pretty much universally acknowledged to have increased demand and contributed to inflation. (also the Cares act and similar acts signed by Trump did the same).

The combination of telling people to stay home (reduce productivity and supply), and giving away money (increasing demand) is the classic recipe for inflation. 

And, arguably, the biggest factor in inflation is the disruption to the global supply chain by a worldwide pandemic. The U.S. isn't the only country seeing inflation (far from it). Pretty sure the acts you mentioned had little or no impact on inflation in Great Britain, for example.

Edited August 12, 2022 by ttribe

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

And, arguably, the biggest factor in inflation is the disruption to the global supply chain by a worldwide pandemic. The U.S. isn't the only county seeing inflation (far from it). Pretty sure the acts you mentioned had little or no impact on inflation in Great Britain, for example.

I Would imagine the same factors worked there as well.  People stay home. (reduce supply, because less products and services are being  supplied), People stay at home spend money they would not otherwise have spent with stimulus money given by government. (Increase Demand).

Econ 101