Ragerunner Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 4 hours ago, Rivers said: The thing is, I just don’t see Christian nationalism as a legit concern. You should if you were a Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, etc. or a ‘Christian’ that doesn’t fit into certain Christian definitions. (Catholics, LDS) 3 Link to comment
Meadowchik Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: You should if you were a Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, etc. or a ‘Christian’ that doesn’t fit into certain Christian definitions. (Catholics, LDS) Or even any Christian. How is a Christianity that prioritises one nation over others valuable to the cause of Zion? Isn't Zion and the kingdom of God supposed to be a uniting of people's of all lands? Current events should be a reminder of how anti-Christian nationalism is. 3 Link to comment
Analytics Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Or even any Christian. How is a Christianity that prioritises one nation over others valuable to the cause of Zion? Isn't Zion and the kingdom of God supposed to be a uniting of people's of all lands? Current events should be a reminder of how anti-Christian nationalism is. Didn't Jesus say his kingdom wasn't of this world, or something like that? Trying to establish a Christian Nation is just as hypocritical as making a graven image of the Ten Commandments to be adulated at city hall. 1 Link to comment
Risingtide Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 22 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I don't know any secular nationalists. Can you point out who they are? Donald Trump Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Risingtide said: Donald Trump Nah, he's just a fake Christian Nationalist. The thing about any ideology is that you don't really have to believe it to put it to work. You just have to convince the true believers that you have their backs. Edited August 12, 2022 by jkwilliams 3 Link to comment
ttribe Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Like most people, I'm a huge fan of the authentic secular state, wherein the government is strictly neutral regarding religion and irreligion, defending and protecting all religious beliefs and practices and the lack thereof equally, 'without fear or favour'. Having lived under a strictly secular military dictatorship, and having been raised by a father who lived under communism, I can state with some authority that secular governments are not necessarily protective of all beliefs, nor are they guaranteed not to favour or even impose the often religious-like ideology of the ruling elite. I suspect it's the latter that Rivers is worried about in his nation. And as Latter-day Saints, we have long been cautioned to watch out for such developments. Earlier in this thread, I quoted Elder Maxwell's prophetic warning on this topic from 1978, and I suspect his words (which of course will mean little to you) might usefully be repeated: As one who lives in a secular (and increasingly secularising) nation devoid of any form of religious nationalism, and based on my personal history, I am sensitive to what Elder Maxwell predicted. Should we be concerned, for example, if it is possible for a resident of a secular state to be arrested for posting on social media an opinion at odds with the state's favoured ideology? In such a case, is it troubling if one can avoid arrest by agreeing instead to attend a re-education course at his own expense? Of course such a thing would be wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I would stand by your side to fight against such a thing. But here in the U.S., we don't have members of our Congress calling for the creation of such a state. We do, however, have Christian Nationalists (supported by a frighteningly growing population base) members of Congress calling for elimination of the separation of the church and state and advocating for a "Christian Nation." Edited August 12, 2022 by ttribe 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ttribe said: Of course such a thing would be wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I would stand by your side to fight against such a thing. But here in the U.S., we don't have members of our Congress calling for the creation of such a state. We do, however, have Christian Nationalists (supported by a frighteningly growing population base) calling for elimination of the separation of the church and state and advocating for a "Christian Nation." More now than ever, sadly. These are times I thought I'd never see here. I thought democracy and our constitution stood at the top of the priority list. Now it's given to one man and one man only. And a thought process that the far left is destroying our country as many see it or think the country needs to be all white (no more immigrants), Christian, and straight. Edited August 12, 2022 by Tacenda Link to comment
ttribe Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: More now than ever, sadly. These are times I thought I'd never see here. I thought democracy and our constitution stood at the top of the priority list. Now it's given to one man and one man only. And a thought process that the far left is destroying our country as many see it or think the country needs to be all white (no more immigrants), Christian, and straight. I live in Arizona and this problem has become especially acute here. 1 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 19 minutes ago, ttribe said: Of course such a thing would be wrong and should be avoided at all costs. I would stand by your side to fight against such a thing. But here in the U.S., we don't have members of our Congress calling for the creation of such a state. We do, however, have Christian Nationalists (supported by a frighteningly growing population base) members of Congress calling for elimination of the separation of the church and state and advocating for a "Christian Nation." Yep, for all the hysteria about "wokism," it's still very much in the fringes. We have a large portion of a major political party and its elected representatives pushing for erosion of separation of church and state (if not outright merger of the two). 3 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 12 minutes ago, ttribe said: I live in Arizona and this problem has become especially acute here. My boss periodically sends out group texts about whatever issue on base, and half the time, it devolves into a round-robin rant about immigrants and Muslims. My favorite comment: "I used to think Mexicans were decent people, but now that there are so many around, I wouldn't give a nickel for a Mexican. They should ship them all back." Link to comment
pogi Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Rivers said: I would rather have Christian nationalism than Godless Communism. Must it be one or the other? You don't have to pick sides, you know. The way things are going currently, I think the Christian nationalists are the greatest threat to democracy and religious liberty right now. Many already tried to overthrow the government through violence. In case you haven't been watching the news, many social media sites are trending with threats of "war", "armed revolution", "lock and load", etc. From one popular site for Christian nationalists, one commenter stated: Quote "Lets get this started! This unelected, illegitimate regime crossed the line with their GESTAPO raid! It is long past time the lib socialist filth were cleansed from American society!" This rhetoric has already influenced violence against the FBI. On Truth Social, this is what the perpetrator posted before getting into a shoot-out with the FBI: Quote “Be ready to kill the enemy,” Shiffer had posted on Tuesday. “Kill [the FBI] on sight.” The man who calls himself a nationalist (Trump) is fueling the flames, again (surprise), of these Christian nationalists on his own website: Quote Mar-a-Lago search was “a surprise attack, POLITICS, and all the while our Country is going to HELL!” From other posters on his site: Quote “have your heart, mind, and body ready to jump into civil war.” Quote On Gab — a social media site popular with white supremacists and antisemites — one poster going by the name of Stephen said he was awaiting "the call" to mount an armed revolution. "All it takes is one call. And millions will arm up and take back this country. It will be over in less than 2 weeks," the post said. Trump does nothing to condemn the violence. He continues to stoke the flames, even after all of this violent rhetoric of war and killing FBI agents. Even after an attack against the FBI, Trump called these FBI agents "sleazy". You cannot tell me there is not serious threat of major violence and uprising in America. I don't see quite the same threat from any "Godless communists", currently. I can't even name one, honestly. If you look at the supreme court and those who make up the legislators, I think that Christian nationalists, in terms of numbers, power, and influence, far outweigh any Godless communists. I am not calling the supreme court Christian nationalists, but I am saying I think it is safe from Godless communists/communism. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/11/1116948902/fbi-mar-a-lago-threats-wray https://religiondispatches.org/the-right-is-using-the-fbis-mar-a-lago-search-to-martyr-trump-and-maintain-the-violent-myth-of-the-big-lie/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/08/12/shiffer-trump-truth-social-fan/ https://time.com/6052051/anti-democratic-threat-christian-nationalism/ Even Christians agree that the greatest threat to religious liberty in America today comes from Christians, not atheists: https://baptistnews.com/article/christian-nationalism-and-the-looming-death-of-religious-liberty/#.YvaL4UfMKUk https://www.americanprogress.org/article/christian-nationalism-is-single-biggest-threat-to-americas-religious-freedom/ https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement Edited August 12, 2022 by pogi 2 Link to comment
ttribe Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My boss periodically sends out group texts about whatever issue on base, and half the time, it devolves into a round-robin rant about immigrants and Muslims. My favorite comment: "I used to think Mexicans were decent people, but now that there are so many around, I wouldn't give a nickel for a Mexican. They should ship them all back." Good grief. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, ttribe said: Good grief. But no, we don't have a problem with White Christian Nationalism in this country. 🙄 3 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 11 minutes ago, pogi said: Must it be one or the other? You don't have to pick sides, you know. The way things are going currently, I think the Christian nationalists are the greatest threat to democracy and religious liberty right now. Many already tried to overthrow the government through violence. In case you haven't been watching the news, many social media sites are trending with threats of "war", "armed revolution", "lock and load", etc. From one popular site for Christian nationalists, one commenter stated: This rhetoric has already influenced violence against the FBI. On Truth Social, this is what the perpetrator posted before getting into a shoot-out with the FBI: The man who calls himself a nationalist (Trump) is igniting the flames of these Christian nationalists on his own website: From other posters on his site: Trump does nothing to condemn the violence. He continues to stoke the flames, even after all of this violent rhetoric of war and killing FBI agents. Even after an attack against the FBI, Trump called these FBI agents "sleazy". You cannot tell me there is not serious threat of major violence and uprising in America. I don't see quite the same threat from any "Godless communists", currently. I can't even name one, honestly. If you look at the supreme court and those who make up the legislators, I think that Christian nationalists, in terms of numbers, power, and influence, far outweigh any Godless communists. I am not calling the supreme court Christian nationalists, but I am saying I think it is safe from Godless communists/communism. https://www.npr.org/2022/08/11/1116948902/fbi-mar-a-lago-threats-wray https://religiondispatches.org/the-right-is-using-the-fbis-mar-a-lago-search-to-martyr-trump-and-maintain-the-violent-myth-of-the-big-lie/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/08/12/shiffer-trump-truth-social-fan/ https://time.com/6052051/anti-democratic-threat-christian-nationalism/ Even Christians agree that the greatest threat to religious liberty in America today comes from Christians, not atheists: https://baptistnews.com/article/christian-nationalism-and-the-looming-death-of-religious-liberty/#.YvaL4UfMKUk https://www.americanprogress.org/article/christian-nationalism-is-single-biggest-threat-to-americas-religious-freedom/ https://www.christiansagainstchristiannationalism.org/statement Christians not being Christians, fake people really. People that want to rule, and take rights and equality away. Anti Christ galore. My daughter gave me a set of 6 plastic cups/lids/straws that had sayings on them. She probably didn't really read the sayings, not sure. But love the one about "wokism", it is what being woke is to me. "Stay Woke ....Woke: Political term referring to awareness of issues concerning social and racial justice." Link to comment
Popular Post Analytics Posted August 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Like most people, I'm a huge fan of the authentic secular state, wherein the government is strictly neutral regarding religion and irreligion, defending and protecting all religious beliefs and practices and the lack thereof equally, 'without fear or favour'. Having lived under a strictly secular military dictatorship, and having been raised by a father who lived under communism, I can state with some authority that secular governments are not necessarily protective of all beliefs, nor are they guaranteed not to favour or even impose the often religious-like ideology of the ruling elite. I suspect it's the latter that Rivers is worried about in his nation. And as Latter-day Saints, we have long been cautioned to watch out for such developments. Earlier in this thread, I quoted Elder Maxwell's prophetic warning on this topic from 1978, and I suspect his words (which of course will mean little to you) might usefully be repeated: As one who lives in a secular (and increasingly secularising) nation devoid of any form of religious nationalism, and based on my personal history, I am sensitive to what Elder Maxwell predicted. Should we be concerned, for example, if it is possible for a resident of a secular state to be arrested for posting on social media an opinion at odds with the state's favoured ideology? In such a case, is it troubling if one can avoid arrest by agreeing instead to attend a re-education course at his own expense? I would suggest that for the 1,000 years between A.D. 400 to A.D. 1400, Europe was dominated by overtly Christian nations, and that is one of the reasons it wasn't a particularly nice time or place to be alive. When the Enlightenment finally began, it essentially used reason and science as a sieve to start removing inconsistencies, falsehoods, myths, absurdities, and in some cases evilness from Christianity. What emerged was liberalism and humanism. It was that exact process that led to, for example, Thomas Jefferson's Bible and his well-documented views of Jesus. Jefferson rejected revelation, miracles, original sin, the atonement, and the resurrection. But after sifting out the parts that didn't make sense, couldn't be true, and were actually evil, Jefferson was left with a view of the historical Jesus that made him a pretty decent humanist sage. America was founded by people who shared Jefferson's sensibilities on these topics such as John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, and for all intents and purposes, George Washington. The most high-profile founding father who fit the mold of a believing Christian was probably Roger Sherman. Their vision of America wasn't to build a country based on Christianity. It was to build a country based upon the humanistic philosophies of folks like Locke, Montesquieu, and Rousseau. That was the great experiment: to build a nation on Enlightenment values. Besides the humanistic, liberal values of the Enlightenment, there are other secular philosophies for government and for morality, which include things like postmodernism, Nietzscheism and Marxism-Leninism. But just as there are any number of value systems and belief structures that are secular in nature, there are also any number of value systems and belief structures that are theistic in nature. That is why invoking "God" or "religion" doesn't settle the debate about what society's values ought to be. We can use our own brains and engage in our own philosophical thinking to figure out what is best. That is what America was built on. Edited August 12, 2022 by Analytics 5 Link to comment
Nemesis Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 I’m going to give this thread one last chance to discuss the topic and leave partisan politics out of it. Self regulate or it will leave me in a position to shut down the discussion and ban people for a nice chunk of time. -Nemesis Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 Getting back to the OP: “Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a “Christian nation”—not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future. Scholars like Samuel Huntington have made a similar argument: that America is defined by its “Anglo-Protestant” past and that we will lose our identity and our freedom if we do not preserve our cultural inheritance. “Christian nationalists do not reject the First Amendment and do not advocate for theocracy, but they do believe that Christianity should enjoy a privileged position in the public square. The term “Christian nationalism,” is relatively new, and its advocates generally do not use it of themselves, but it accurately describes American nationalists who believe American identity is inextricable from Christianity.” IMO, no religion or culture/nation “should enjoy a privileged position in the public square.” To the extent that any politicians or political parties propose that, we should oppose them. American identity requires acceptance of democracy and pluralism, not WASP culture or values. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: IMO, no religion or culture/nation “should enjoy a privileged position in the public square.” To the extent that any politicians or political parties propose that, we should oppose them. American identity requires acceptance of democracy and pluralism, not WASP culture or values. Contradiction Democracy and pluralism ARE WASP values. Do you see these ideas practiced in Muslim countries? Perhaps China? India? For that matter, Poland? Russia? Prussia/Germany? Nope. France, yes, Rousseau French Revolution, yes. American revolution, yes. England, yes, Locke and a jillion others And of course the USA. White- remember slavery? Anglo Saxon - British parliament Protestant- Jamestown, Plymouth, Mayflower Not to mention the Magna Carta Edited August 12, 2022 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 On 8/11/2022 at 11:22 AM, Rivers said: I’m more worried about secular nationalism at this point. I hope you don't mind my replying so much, I'm learning as I go, never knew how very important secularism is to the world, even to freedom of religion. I hope secularism stays as this guy says it is. Link to comment
Chum Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Democracy and pluralism ARE WASP values. Do you see these ideas practiced in Muslim countries? Perhaps China? India? For that matter, Poland? Russia? Prussia/Germany? Specifically, what are you advocating with this declaration? Link to comment
Chum Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a “Christian nation” Perhaps these adherents could be termed Christianists. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, Chum said: Specifically, what are you advocating with this declaration? An inability to distinguish between Reformation/Enlightenment ideals and “WASP” culture seems, well, problematic at best. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 On 8/8/2022 at 3:06 AM, Hamba Tuhan said: Mate, if you're that desperate to feed your hero complex, no doubt we can convince another faux Nazi to come troll the forum with intentionally outrageous comments for you to respond to. Unfortunately no, I was banned for a week for being verbally abusive towards a Nazi. If another Nazi came to troll the forum I would not have been here to be verbally abusive. It was a troll but it wasn’t a faux Nazi. Trolls don’t always have to exaggerate their beliefs to be deliberately outrageous. Regular Nazi talk is sufficiently outrageous. Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 On 8/12/2022 at 3:16 PM, Nemesis said: I’m going to give this thread one last chance to discuss the topic and leave partisan politics out of it. Self regulate or it will leave me in a position to shut down the discussion and ban people for a nice chunk of time. -Nemesis Sometimes I wish there was one thread we could all vent because there's no place for politics among family, friends, neighbors.....but I get it. And even religion is a touchy subject if people disagree. Top two things I believe. Thanks for giving the thread another chance. Link to comment
Amulek Posted August 15, 2022 Share Posted August 15, 2022 On 8/12/2022 at 12:06 PM, ttribe said: On 8/12/2022 at 11:27 AM, jkwilliams said: My boss periodically sends out group texts about whatever issue on base, and half the time, it devolves into a round-robin rant about immigrants and Muslims. My favorite comment: "I used to think Mexicans were decent people, but now that there are so many around, I wouldn't give a nickel for a Mexican. They should ship them all back." Good grief. On 8/12/2022 at 12:14 PM, jkwilliams said: On 8/12/2022 at 12:06 PM, ttribe said: Good grief. But no, we don't have a problem with White Christian Nationalism in this country. 🙄 I think what you are talking about isn't the Christian Nationalism discussed in the OP. It sounds like what you are talking about here is racial, ethnocentric Nationalism which just so happens to be espoused by people who claim to be Christians. But those aren't the same thing. Those who are sympathetic to Christian Nationalist sentiments come from all races. I have heard such comments from Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Indians (dots, not feathers), etc. Also, while it may be tempting to try and style efforts to bolster religious freedom as attempts to erode the separation of church and state and create a so-called Christian Nation, I would remind people that those freedoms apply to people of all religions - not just Christians. The same religious freedom protections that Christians employ to defend their rights (e.g., to pray in public after a football game) are likewise used by Muslim citizens who claim exceptions to employer dress codes and hairstyle rules; Jewish litigants or witnesses who claim exemptions from court rules which require people to keep their heads uncovered in court; Indian employees who ask time off work to celebrate their holy days; etc. Link to comment
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