"Suspicious" Fire at Orem Temple Site

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

The Orem Fired Department and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints continue to investigate what is now being termed a suspicious fire at the construction site of the Orem Utah Temple.

Reports were made late Monday night that flames could be seen at the temple. Calls reportedly came from apartments overlooking the temple and from motorist traveling on Interstate 15 next to the temple construction area.

The fire was confined to one room on the third floor of the temple, damaging construction materials, according to Sean Hirst, information officer for the fire department.

Doug Andersen, spokesman for the church, released a statement Tuesday saying, “Just before midnight, on Monday July 25th, flames became visible inside the Orem Utah Temple, which is currently under construction. The source of the fire is not yet known, but it is believed that the fire started on the third floor of the temple. Foam was used to extinguish the fire as much as possible, which limited water damage to the construction site. Damage is still being evaluated this morning. The Church is grateful to the Orem Fire Department for their quick response.”

“The fire department arrived after most of (the fire) was out,” Hirst said. “There was mostly just light smoke and firefighter extinguished what was left.”

Hirst indicated that most of the construction material burned itself out. The temple is one in a number of LDS Church facilities that have recently received damage from arsonists or suspicious sources.

The Orem Temple was announced Oct. 5, 2019, and is expected to be completed in the fall of 2023.

Here:

Quote

Orem fire Battalion Chief Shaun Hirst said emergency dispatchers actually started getting calls from residents of neighboring apartments and motorists driving by reporting smoke coming from the upper floors of the temple at about 11:10 p.m. The first arriving crews found "very light smoke" and "minimal" fire activity in a utility room on the third floor, which was quickly extinguished.

The cause of the fire remained under investigation Tuesday. Because of the type of building it is, Hirst said Orem firefighters are receiving assistance from the State Fire Marshal, the Utah County Fire Department and Orem police. Additionally, church officials have requested the assistance of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives as part of the investigation, he said.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 27, 2022 by smac97

[Kenngo1969]

It's interesting that the request for assistance from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives came from the Church of Jesus Christ rather than from Orem P.D. or the Orem Fire Marshal.  Is that because the latter two parties said, "We don't see anything here that would warrant investigation by BATFE, but if you think more investigation should be conducted, that's up to you"?

[pogi]

Do we know who is calling it "suspicious", and why?  Is it simply the "type of the building" that they are considering in using that term? That word wasn't used in any other report I have heard or read.  

It sounds like it started in a utility room on the 3rd floor.  That makes it sound less suspect to me.  The third floor is a strange place for an arson to start a fire.  If I was an arson, I'd want to start the fire on the ground floor to cause the most damage.  A utility room is probably the most likely place for a fire to start by accident.   There was also only "minimal fire activity" reported, which also makes it sound more like an accident. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by pogi

[CA Steve]

50-100 years from now faithful descendants of those who witnessed this event will testify how the 3 Nephites held nightly watch around a campfire, guarding the Orem temple while it was unprotected.

[smac97]

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do we know who is calling it "suspicious", and why? 

The fire chief who responded to the fire made some comments.  From KSL:

Quote

Battalion Chief Shaun Hirst, of Orem Fire, said that people in nearby apartments and drivers passing the site on I-15 called to report a fire on the top floor of the Temple which is still under construction.

Hirst said that when Orem firefighters arrived they found light smoke and “minimal active fire” in a utility room on the third floor. 

As of yet, there is no damage estimate. That will be left to church officials.

An investigation is underway by multiple agencies including the Utah Fire Marshall, Hirst said. There is no known cause of the fire as of late Tuesday morning.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has also contacted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). 

“With the nature of the property,” Hirst said, “… we’re making sure we’re doing anything to rule [suspicious activity] out.”

The "suspicious activity" is interpolated in the above quote, which is sort of strange given that the same quote from the fire chief is in this article and does not require an interpolation:

Quote

Battalion Chief Shaun Hirst with Orem Fire Department said the fire was called in by people passing on Interstate-15 and people in nearby apartments.

Fire crews arrived to find light smoke and a “burned out room.”

The cause is still under investigation, but Hirst said they can’t share much.

“With the nature of the property… we’re making sure we’re doing anything to rule suspicious activity out,” Hirst said.

The author of the first piece, Simone Seikaly, apparently added the brackets to suggest an interpolation, or else the author of the second piece, Eliza Pace, misquoted the fire chief.  I'm thinking the former is more likely.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is it simply the "type of the building" that they are considering in using that term?

The source seems to be the fire chief.  From Deseret News:

Quote

Because of the type of building it is, Hirst said Orem firefighters are receiving assistance from the State Fire Marshal, the Utah County Fire Department and Orem police. Additionally, church officials have requested the assistance of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives as part of the investigation, he said.

There are all sorts of ways a fire can appear "suspicious."  A building under construction may not have flammable/combustible materials around the site of the fire, or there could be indications of an accelerant being used.  

That the Church is affirmatively requesting help from ATF is pretty interesting.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

That word wasn't used in any other report I have heard or read.

In addition to the Daily Herald, the two KSL articles both use the word "suspicious," expressly attributing it to the fire chief.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

It sounds like it started in a utility room on the 3rd floor.  That makes it sound less suspect to me.  The third floor is a strange place for an arson to start a fire.  If I was an arson, I'd want to start the fire on the ground floor to cause the most damage. 

Not all arsonists are mission-oriented.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Types of arson motives identified are (1) pyromania, 10.1 percent; (2) revenge, 52.9 percent; (3) vandalism, 12.3 percent; (4) insurance fraud, 6.55 percent; (5) welfare fraud, 6.55 percent; (6) the psycho firesetter, 8.7 percent; and (7) crime concealment, 2.9 percent.

"Psycho firesetter."  Wow, you seldom see "psycho" used as a descriptor in a formal government publication.

Anyway, pyromania or vandalism are feasible motives, and do not necessarily require the arsonist to intend to "cause the most damage."

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

A utility room is probably the most likely place for a fire to start by accident.   There was also only "minimal fire activity" reported, which also makes it sound more like an accident. 

That may be simply a matter of timing.  The fire may have largely consumed whatever flammable materials were present, such that by the time the firefighters arrived there was "minimal fire activity."  

Meanwhile, the fire was apparently noticeable enough to attract the attention of neighboring apartments and motorists:

Quote

Flames were visible just before midnight Monday at the Orem Temple, 471 S Geneva Road, which is currently under construction, according to church spokesman Doug Andersen.

...

Shaun Hirst, chief of the Orem Fire Brigade Battalion, said the emergency response center did indeed start receiving calls from residents of neighboring apartments and motorists, reporting smoke from the upper floors of the temple around 11:10 p.m. The first arriving crews found “very light smoke” and “minimal” fire activity in a third-floor utility room, which was quickly extinguished.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 27, 2022 by smac97

[pogi]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The fire chief who responded to the fire made some comments.  From KSL:

The "suspicious activity" is interpolated in the above quote, which is sort of strange given that the same quote from the fire chief is in this article and does not require an interpolation:

The author of the first piece, Simone Seikaly, apparently added the brackets to suggest an interpolation, or else the author of the second piece, Eliza Pace, misquoted the fire chief.  I'm thinking the former is more likely.

The source seems to be the fire chief.  From Deseret News:

There are all sorts of ways a fire can appear "suspicious."  A building under construction may not have flammable/combustible materials around the site of the fire, or there could be indications of an accelerant being used.  

That the Church is affirmatively requesting help from ATF is pretty interesting.

In addition to the Daily Herald, the two KSL articles both use the word "suspicious," expressly attributing it to the fire chief.

Not all arsonists are mission-oriented.  See, e.g., here:

"Psycho firesetter."  Wow, you seldom see "psycho" used as a descriptor in a formal government publication.

Anyway, pyromania or vandalism are feasible motives, and do not necessarily require the arsonist to intend to "cause the most damage."

That may be simply a matter of timing.  The fire may have largely consumed whatever flammable materials were present, such that by the time the firefighters arrived there was "minimal fire activity."  

Meanwhile, the fire was apparently noticeable enough to attract the attention of neighboring apartments and motorists:

Thanks,

-Smac

It sounds like they are investigating to "rule out" "suspicious" or "[suspicious]" (whichever it may be) activity.  However the article states that it is now "being termed suspicious", but I don't see where or by whom.  The reporting doesn't seem to be very solid on this story.  No sources, attributions, or reasons for their comments and claims.

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

There are all sorts of ways a fire can appear "suspicious."  A building under construction may not have flammable/combustible materials around the site of the fire, or there could be indications of an accelerant being used.  

Obviously there are lots of reasons why a fire might look suspicious.  I'm just wondering why this one specifically was considered "suspicious" and by whom -  If it indeed was "termed suspicious" (which is in question for me).  No sources. 

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The source seems to be the fire chief.  From Deseret News:

I'm not seeing anything in that quote claiming anything suspicious, other than it being a temple and them using extra precaution to rule out suspicious activity in this case because of the nature of the building. 

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That the Church is affirmatively requesting help from ATF is pretty interesting.

Which may suggest that the fire chief didn't find anything suspicious. 

The only indication we have as to why is that it is a temple and they are wanting to be careful in ruling out anything other than an accident.  Maybe it is a matter of policy for church and religious buildings. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by pogi

[ttribe]

I believe ATF is involved in virtually all fires at churches. They have an arson unit and there seems to be a presumption of potential criminal activity for any fire at a church until shown otherwise.

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I believe ATF is involved in virtually all fires at churches. They have an arson unit and there seems to be a presumption of potential criminal activity for any fire at a church until shown otherwise.

That's all I'm seeing to.  I think the reporting is misleading. 

[Judd]

32 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

50-100 years from now faithful descendants of those who witnessed this event will testify how the 3 Nephites held nightly watch around a campfire, guarding the Orem temple while it was unprotected.

Balanced only by a contingent of those very adamant about a fire never actually having happened.

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

It sounds like they are investigating to "rule out" "suspicious" or "[suspicious]" (whichever it may be) activity. 

Yep.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

However the article states that it is now "being termed suspicious", but I don't see where or by whom.  

The fire chief's reference to "rul{ing} suspicious activity out" may well have been misconstrued.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

The reporting doesn't seem to be very solid on this story.  No sources, attributions, or reasons for their comments and claims.

In-the-moment reporting can be a bit sloppy.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which may suggest that the fire chief didn't find anything suspicious. 

And yet we have this: "Hirst said Orem firefighters are receiving assistance from the State Fire Marshal, the Utah County Fire Department and Orem police."

We also have the Church asking for help from the ATF.  That seems unusual.

Did the journalists go beyond the facts?  I dunno.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

The only indication we have as to why is that it is a temple and they are wanting to be careful in ruling out anything other than an accident.  Maybe it is a matter of policy for church and religious buildings. 

Perhaps so.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet we have this: "Hirst said Orem firefighters are receiving assistance from the State Fire Marshal, the Utah County Fire Department and Orem police."

Don't forget to include the reason:

"Because of the type of building it is, Hirst said..."

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by pogi

[The Nehor]

So, the fire was “suspicious” because they were trying to rule out that it was deliberate. That would be just doing their regular job.

Good job on the clickbait title I guess.

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, ttribe said:

I believe ATF is involved in virtually all fires at churches. They have an arson unit and there seems to be a presumption of potential criminal activity for any fire at a church until shown otherwise.

I was gonna say, why would ATF be relevant? My thought was that there might be evidence of accelerants which ATF would be interested in. This would make sense but I still gotta wonder why ATF in particular has the church arson beat.

Edited July 27, 2022 by OGHoosier

[ttribe]

37 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I was gonna say, why would ATF be relevant? My thought was that there might be evidence of accelerants which ATF would be interested in. This would make sense but I still gotta wonder why ATF in particular has the church arson beat.

I'm not entirely sure how ATF ended up with this jurisdictional quirk, but a little searching indicates it to be the case. On their website they specifically identify the presence of an arson investigation unit, so I'm guessing they are the go-to for any arson which would rise to a Federal level crime.

Edited July 27, 2022 by ttribe

[longview]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

It sounds like it started in a utility room on the 3rd floor.  That makes it sound less suspect to me.  The third floor is a strange place for an arson to start a fire.  If I was an arson, I'd want to start the fire on the ground floor to cause the most damage. 

I wonder if a teenager was looking around the place.  Most likely there was a security guard (nightwatch).  The teenager could easily ascertain where the guard is and stealthily have a run of the place while keeping out of sight.

6 hours ago, pogi said:

A utility room is probably the most likely place for a fire to start by accident.   

The nightwatch is more likely to notice problems on the first floor so the intruder probably wanted to start a fire in a more remote area (upper level and closed off utility room).  Let the fire simmer long enough to spread into the attic where it can burn out of control.

6 hours ago, pogi said:

There was also only "minimal fire activity" reported, which also makes it sound more like an accident. 

Fortunately the smoke was seeping out the building so numerous people could see and calls quickly made to 911.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's interesting that the request for assistance from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives came from the Church of Jesus Christ rather than from Orem P.D. or the Orem Fire Marshal.  Is that because the latter two parties said, "We don't see anything here that would warrant investigation by BATFE, but if you think more investigation should be conducted, that's up to you"?

Maybe because there have been a number across jurisdictions and Orem was fine with just investigating it as a one off arson attempt, but the Church leaders are concern it is a pattern. Added: ttribe’s answer sounds most likely.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/9/6/23339565/atf-arson-orem-utah-temple-cash-reward-for-information-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints

[smac97]

https://www.ksl.com/article/50470837/arson-suspected-mormon-lds-orem-utah-temple-fire-reward-offered-

Quote

Arson suspected in Orem Latter-day Saint temple fire; reward offered
By Pat Reavy, KSL.com | Posted - Sept. 6, 2022 at 1:15 p.m.

OREM — Investigators suspect a July fire inside the Orem temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is under construction, was the result of arson.

On Tuesday, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, in conjunction with the Orem Police Department, announced a $5,000 reward for information about the fire.

Just after 11 p.m. on July 25, flames became visible inside the Orem temple, 1471 S Geneva Road.

"The source of the fire is not yet known, but it is believed that the fire started on the third floor of the temple. Foam was used to extinguish the fire as much as possible, which limited water damage to the construction site," church spokesman Doug Andersen said at the time of the incident.

Isolated fire damage was found in the temple as well as "significant smoke damage" throughout the entire structure, estimated to be in the thousands of dollars, according to information released Tuesday by the ATF. No injuries were reported.

While the ATF did not say why arson is suspected or how the fire may have started, investigators did release grainy black-and-white surveillance video that shows a person leaving the temple entrance at a hurried pace. The time stamp in the video is one minute before the fire was reported.

Anyone with information about the fire is asked to call the ATF at 1-888-ATF-TIPS or 1-888-283-8477 or Orem police at 801-229-7070. Tips can also be sent to ATFTips@atf.gov or through ATF's website at www.atf.gov/contact/atftips.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50470837/arson-suspected-mormon-lds-orem-utah-temple-fire-reward-offered-

 

So much for the dismissal of this thread as mere “click bait,” eh? 

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/50470837/arson-suspected-mormon-lds-orem-utah-temple-fire-reward-offered-

 

I really don't understand people who do things like that. Our chapel in Texas was vandalized once, and it made me wonder what on earth people are thinking. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I really don't understand people who do things like that.

Disrespect.  Animosity.  Substance abuse.  Mental illness.  Increasing social acceptance and justification of violence as a legitimate expression of sociopolitical disagreement.

There are all sorts of potential reasons.

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Our chapel in Texas was vandalized once, and it made me wonder what on earth people are thinking. 

I am concerned we as a society are becoming too Machiavellian in terms of disagreement with each other.  There is, or ought to be, a gaping chasm between spoken (written and verbal) disagreement and physical expression of that disagreement, whether through vandalism, physical aggression, violent protests/riots, etc.

I think we need to re-visit the justifications / rationalizations / excuses made for the BLM/Antifa riots, the Jan. 6 protest, the post-Dobbs violence and threats made against churches and pregnancy resource centers, etc. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 8, 2022 by smac97

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So much for the dismissal of this thread as mere “click bait,” eh? 

Reading comprehension not your strong suit? I said the thread title was “click bait” with the “suspicious” thing when the only thing suspicious that we knew of at the time was that a fire started at all and it was being investigated like all such fires are.

Now maybe they have strong evidence it was arson. Maybe they don’t and all they have is the video of the person leaving. Unless smac had some hidden insight that wasn’t shared it is still click baitey. It may have ended up being correct but that was pretty much dumb luck. This obsession with being right in matters like this is one of the reasons our society is such a mess. We seem to be incapable to stand in a place of indecision and wait for more knowledge.

If there were an update saying the fire was ruled accidental would you expect everyone to be deferential and in awe of my suggestion that going beyond the facts was unwise with sneering derision coming down on smac? I certainly wouldn’t.

The facts of situations are becoming less and less relevant as things are now a team sport of spin and sort of hoping the facts will backfill the suppositions.

Which makes this…..

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think we need to re-visit the justifications / rationalizations / excuses made for the BLM/Antifa riots, the Jan. 6 protest, the post-Dobbs violence and threats made against churches and pregnancy resource centers, etc. 

…much more laughable. Mostly because the laughter can hide the tears.

[SkyRock]

Always hard for the "punch a Nazi" crowd to look in the mirror and realize they are the Nazis.  So sad. 

Newsflash:  dehumanizing opponents is pretty standard for most people and almost everyone justifies their violence by blaming the other side. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

Always hard for the "punch a Nazi" crowd to look in the mirror and realize they are the Nazis.  So sad. 

Newsflash:  dehumanizing opponents is pretty standard for most people and almost everyone justifies their violence by blaming the other side. 

Yep, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Churchill, all turned out to be the Nazis in the end.

C’mon, that newsflash is just stupidly self-evident. Of course everyone justifies their violence by blaming the other side. Captain Moroni justified violence due to the actions of his enemies. So did Thomas Jefferson. It is how God justified the Flood. The Ukrainians fighting off a Russian invasion as we speak justify themselves by it being necessary because of what the Russians are doing. It is whether the justification is legitimate that matters.

Edited September 10, 2022 by The Nehor