Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A very cool find, if it is indeed him, maybe The Church should update much of their artwork. Not a bad looking fellow, not at all.

[JustAnAustralian]

I shoved it into a few online image "AI" enhancers.

They consistently brought out two interesting things:

1. Flabby cheek muscle
2. One eye is looking in a different direction to the others, or else his eye is swollen and covering it (less so in VanceAI).

jpghd

VanceAI

 

Hotspot

 

ImgKits

Edited July 24, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[JAHS]

Joseph Smith's son Alexander Hale Smith compared to the new photo. Could almost be the same person.

[SteveO]

It’s that little “dent” above the left eye that nails it for me.  Pretty sure that’s him.

The longer I look at it, the more he looks like a very jovial guy-very tired though. 

[Duncan]

34 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Joseph Smith's son Alexander Hale Smith compared to the new photo. Could almost be the same person.

except for the nose, the eyes, the mouth, the eyebrows, The new photo looks doctored, the clothes look almost painted

[why me]

I am not sure if this something new. I have seen this photo before years ago on another board. It looks very familiar. But listening to the podcast, it is new. But will we ever really know if it is Joseph Smith? And why did the person who originally had it, keep it a secret. Amazing.

Edited July 24, 2022 by why me

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

except for the nose, the eyes, the mouth, the eyebrows, The new photo looks doctored, the clothes look almost painted

I guess my point was is that they are obviously related so the new photo is at least a Smith family member.

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not engaging in fallacies to win an argument (clearly this is a subjective matter with no absolutely right answer), nor am I overly emotional.  

Which is the reason I got into it

I am teaching a lesson tomorrow, using these pictures to contrast the problem of two debating what is "true" saying that "truth is the way things are" vs "we see through a glass darkly"

Nice harmless vaguely LDS, vaguely fun, subjective question 

IF it is an important of course, the answer is Alma 32 AND other stuff from other conference talks!  Science vs religion etc.

Pogi:

"This just highlights yet again how radically different perspectives can be when viewing the same things"

Yep.  Nailed it as usual, mi amigo!

[Calm]

This guy animated the picture (as in it looks like a video, not a cartoon) and put a voice speaking a selection from the First Vision with it. It is great and weird. 
 

https://www.facebook.com/josh.dietz.752/videos/618489769698160/?flite=scwspnss

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Calm

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, why me said:

And why did the person who originally had it, keep it a secret. Amazing.

It seems that Emma was very protective of Joseph and Hiram's legacy. Keeping Joseph's graven image private for so long would be nothing compared to the Smith family's successful attempt to keep the location of his body a secret for almost 100 years

http://www.keepapitchinin.org/library/skeletons-of-joseph-and-hyrum-smith-uncovered-1928/

[Urloony]

A little video to compare everything we've been asking about.

 

[Matthew Andreasen]

This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the ideas that have been shared. For me, the middle of the upper lip is interesting. In the portrait and the death mask, it looks like the middle of the upper lip is thicker/swollen and drops down. I don't see that in the picture from the locket where the upper lip seems thinner to me.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Matthew Andreasen said:

This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the ideas that have been shared. For me, the middle of the upper lip is interesting. In the portrait and the death mask, it looks like the middle of the upper lip is thicker/swollen and drops down. I don't see that in the picture from the locket where the upper lip seems thinner to me.

I was thinking the same thing -- the 1844 photo also seems to have broader glabella / nasion regions (upper nose bridge areas) than the death mask.

Edited July 24, 2022 by CV75

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

This guy animated the picture (as in it looks like a video, not a cartoon) and put a voice speaking a selection from the First Vision with it. It is great and weird. 
 

https://www.facebook.com/josh.dietz.752/videos/618489769698160/?flite=scwspnss

 

The accent is way off

[OGHoosier]

4 hours ago, Matthew Andreasen said:

This is all very interesting. Thanks for all the ideas that have been shared. For me, the middle of the upper lip is interesting. In the portrait and the death mask, it looks like the middle of the upper lip is thicker/swollen and drops down. I don't see that in the picture from the locket where the upper lip seems thinner to me.

I agree. The portrait and the death mask have pretty consistent upper lips, which suggests that the death mask's dramatic upper lip curve is not a result of damage from the events of the martyrdom. That's honestly the main reason why I am not really convinced this is Joseph Smith. The history of the locket showing up in portraits isn't too compelling to me as the only connection is the visible exterior of the locket and a locketseller would presumably have multiple lockets of similar design for sale. I admit the frown line is compelling, but I don't think its any more compelling than the enormous and obvious difference in lip structure. 

[Teancum]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:03 PM, OGHoosier said:

His visage is harsher than I would have expected, though the uncomfortable nature of sitting for a daguerreotype would probably account for that. Those eyes are absolutely penetrating though.  

Penetrating?  How so?  they look like eyes. Normal eyes.  🙄

[Teancum]

On 7/21/2022 at 5:31 PM, longview said:

The photo is an image of a really rugged frontiersman, the face of intelligence, lips set in tremendous endurance and the eyes of love, compassion and visionary seer.

Really?  JUst looks like a dude. Just another man. Nothing extraordinary at all.

[longview]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Really?  JUst looks like a dude. Just another man. Nothing extraordinary at all.

Are you aware of stories of him out-wrestling guys bigger than him?  Rough stone ROLLING!  The Lord did wonders with him.

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, longview said:

Are you aware of stories of him out-wrestling guys bigger than him?  Rough stone ROLLING!  The Lord did wonders with him.

Being a good wrestler makes someone special?  And that are the wonders? The pic really looks like some worn out 19th century person.  Nothing special.  And the person in the pic look much older than 38.

[longview]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Being a good wrestler makes someone special? 

His whole life was AWESOME from beginning to end.  He died sealing his testimony of Christ's Restored Church.  In between he went through so many incredible challenges.  If he was a fraud, he would have quit long before April 6, 1830.

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And that are the wonders?

He survived an attempted poisoning that dislocated his jaw.  Which he reset on his own.  Thousands of experiences just incredible.

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The pic really looks like some worn out 19th century person. 

Exactly my thoughts.  A couple of people on this thread expressed their opinion that the picture was too old for a 38 year old guy.  All that does is point to the ruggedness and the heavy rigor of his life.  His dedication and his steadfastness and his faithfulness!  A true soldier and prophet.  Like Elijah.

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nothing special.  And the person in the pic look much older than 38.

Your'e just being a sourpuss.  I am very grateful for JS' life and mission.  And very privileged to be part of the Restored Church!

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I agree. The portrait and the death mask have pretty consistent upper lips, which suggests that the death mask's dramatic upper lip curve is not a result of damage from the events of the martyrdom. That's honestly the main reason why I am not really convinced this is Joseph Smith. The history of the locket showing up in portraits isn't too compelling to me as the only connection is the visible exterior of the locket and a locketseller would presumably have multiple lockets of similar design for sale. I admit the frown line is compelling, but I don't think its any more compelling than the enormous and obvious difference in lip structure. 

Also, unless the upper lip in the painting of 1842 was later revised to resemble the 1844 death mask, it would look more like the 1844 daguerreotype. Any documentation that the painted was revised, or perhaps copied with the change added, after 1844?

Joseph's chipped front tooth or injured jaw (sustained 1832) might have contributed to the unique positioning of the upper lip, which lip is thin and straight in the 1844 daguerreotype.

Edited July 24, 2022 by CV75

[Rivers]

20 hours ago, SteveO said:

It’s that little “dent” above the left eye that nails it for me.  Pretty sure that’s him.

The longer I look at it, the more he looks like a very jovial guy-very tired though. 
 

I’m still on the fence but that dent by the left eye is the most compelling evidence for me.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, longview said:

His whole life was AWESOME from beginning to end. 

Are you sure you aren’t reading what you know and feel about Joseph into the face though?

[longview]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you sure you aren’t reading what you know and feel about Joseph into the face though?

I am not a 100 percenter on the photo.  Give the scholars and historians and whoever time to continue the assessment and review.  Just like President Hinckley was content to allow more experts to investigate the provenance of Mark Hoffman's dubious works.  As it was, the investors put more pressure on Hoffman than did the scholars.  I do like the photo though.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Really?  JUst looks like a dude. Just another man. Nothing extraordinary at all.

Well, at least he doesn't look like a lady.  [Cue Aerosmith.]