Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Follow F.A.I.R, They Know the Way


Recommended Posts

On 7/18/2022 at 6:05 AM, CV75 said:

I would engage, but you come across as lacking a grasp of genetic science while holding to a dogmatic bias in your clunky semantic rhetoric concerning epistemics.

Elsewhere I wrote: 

The very essence of science is continues inquiry. But with every iteration the picture gets clearer. Both genetic and radiometric-dating gets more accurate every decade. Single chromosome genomic testing allows to trace populations across time based on a set of fixed genetic mutation passed thru the males in the family tree. It is "a clock" and thus able to tell "time" based on the number of intergenerational defects as population groups move across the earth. I am involved in precision medicine research which is a fairly new field of studdy that relies heavily on genetics. My field of study deals with neurological and psychiatric disorders with a strong hereditary component. This book is re-writing history based on genetic research. 

Elsewhere I wrote: According to the BoB, the Lehite company arrived about 2600 years ago and grew to be in the millions. If the DNA of those that arrived earlier can be traced, it is, statistically speaking, impossible that ALL Lehite DNA could be wiped out. The statistical probabilities that no trace of DNA of a population numbering in the millions could be wiped out in a land mass like the American continent in 2600 years are astronomical. There are 3.2 billion base pairs in the human DNA. Especially when other groups, much smaller in number survived from much earlier to the present. 

As far my professional field of endeavor, I should just say that I hold graduates degrees in physiology and pharmachology. I am not a geneticist but I can read a cM segment on a genetic chart. You attempted to make an argument from authority which is pretty lame rather than address the issue I raised. Typical

Link to comment
7 minutes ago, Islander said:

Elsewhere I wrote: 

The very essence of science is continues inquiry. But with every iteration the picture gets clearer. Both genetic and radiometric-dating gets more accurate every decade. Single chromosome genomic testing allows to trace populations across time based on a set of fixed genetic mutation passed thru the males in the family tree. It is "a clock" and thus able to tell "time" based on the number of intergenerational defects as population groups move across the earth. I am involved in precision medicine research which is a fairly new field of studdy that relies heavily on genetics. My field of study deals with neurological and psychiatric disorders with a strong hereditary component. This book is re-writing history based on genetic research. 

Elsewhere I wrote: According to the BoB, the Lehite company arrived about 2600 years ago and grew to be in the millions. If the DNA of those that arrived earlier can be traced, it is, statistically speaking, impossible that ALL Lehite DNA could be wiped out. The statistical probabilities that no trace of DNA of a population numbering in the millions could be wiped out in a land mass like the American continent in 2600 years are astronomical. There are 3.2 billion base pairs in the human DNA. Especially when other groups, much smaller in number survived from much earlier to the present. 

As far my professional field of endeavor, I should just say that I hold graduates degrees in physiology and pharmachology. I am not a geneticist but I can read a cM segment on a genetic chart. You attempted to make an argument from authority which is pretty lame rather than address the issue I raised. Typical

Unless they intermarried with existing groups when they arrived in which case their might be no remaining material.

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Unless they intermarried with existing groups when they arrived in which case their might be no remaining material.

Not so. DNA material is not "diluted" by intermarriage. There are 3.2 billion base pairs in the the DNA and there are genetic markers that are passed across thousands of years from both sides, maternal and paternal. That is why we know that the Native Americans are descendants from North East Asia people that migrated to the Americas 10,000 plus years ago. They share genetic markers with fossils recovered in that region. The Y chromosome research is exciting because it looks at very specific (3) defects passed from fathers to sons in every generation. It is like a clock which allows to "count back" how many generations/years to ancestral DNA and track movement of said groups across the earth. It is rather exciting to look at history thru the lenses of DNA.

Link to comment
On 7/13/2022 at 2:25 PM, Fair Dinkum said:

... I'm putting my money on F.A.I.R for being correct on this question ... [first set of ellipses added, second set of ellipses, indicating a pause, in original]

Please save your money.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints opposes gambling.  I know you probably don't support the Church of Jesus Christ enough to pay Tithing, but please consider putting the money you were going to "put[ ] on FAIR" to good use by contributing it toward Fast Offering, which, of course, benefits the needy in your local area. [(I should add, of course, that, always, you're welcome to contribute to FAIR, but, as FAIR sees part of its its mission to strengthen faith in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, in which, no longer do you seem to believe, you might not see that as a viable option.) :) ]

 

Edited by Kenngo1969
Link to comment
On 7/13/2022 at 4:25 PM, Fair Dinkum said:

If they were/are wrong on something as simple as this, why should I follow them on anything else?

My usual answer: No (well examined) belief sets are ever in perfect harmony. The option I prefer is to shelve the inevitable disharmonies and wait for time to provide a more complete understanding. The alternative is a forced decision to abandon/depreciate a belief set (that had served us well).

Edited by Chum
Link to comment
13 hours ago, Islander said:

Read the while book, not just a summary.

I did end up reading the whole book, or rather listening to it on Audible at 2X speed. It wasn't worth it TBH. I pretty much gave up on it when the author presented the Walam Olum as an accurate textual history of the North American Lenape tribe retelling their memories of a migration from Asia to American. No such text exists. The Walam Olum was a hoax fabricated by Rafinesque four years after the publication of the Book of Mormon.

13 hours ago, Islander said:

Well, we are talking about 9,000-12,000 years ago earlier. According to the BoB the Lehite company arrive about 2600 years ago and grew to be millions. If the DNA of those that arriver earlier can be traced, it is statistically speaking impossible that ALL Lehite DNA could be wiped out. The statistical probabilities that no trace of DNA of a population numbering in the millions could be wiped out in a land mass like the American continent are astronical. Especially when other groups, much smaller in number survived from much earlier to the present. It does not hold water.

I don't know if it is statistically impossible. A good counter-argument can be found in Southeast Asia where Persian, Roman, Greek and Indian cultures explode on the scene in the first couple of centuries AD. Roman coins, oil lamps, beads, along with Buddhist and Hindu artifacts are scattered throughout SE Asian trading ports. Massive Indianized states, with populations of millions, form throughout the subcontinent and nearly all early myths, inscriptions and early Chinese accounts of the region speak of intermarriage between West and South Asians with locals. However, there is not yet a clear genetic trace of any of that happening in that time period. It was only this year that western and south asian haplogroups finally turned up in "low levels" in some sampled groups, but also notably absent in others.

There's a lot of sampling that needs to be done before we can say anything much about the genetic makeup of entire continents.

Edited by Zosimus
Link to comment
12 hours ago, Islander said:

Not so. DNA material is not "diluted" by intermarriage. There are 3.2 billion base pairs in the the DNA and there are genetic markers that are passed across thousands of years from both sides, maternal and paternal. That is why we know that the Native Americans are descendants from North East Asia people that migrated to the Americas 10,000 plus years ago. They share genetic markers with fossils recovered in that region. The Y chromosome research is exciting because it looks at very specific (3) defects passed from fathers to sons in every generation. It is like a clock which allows to "count back" how many generations/years to ancestral DNA and track movement of said groups across the earth. It is rather exciting to look at history thru the lenses of DNA.

Yes, it is. Your explanation shows it. We know that they came from Northeast Asia. Every single one? We are nowhere near having enough data to show that conclusively. Genetic migrations are guesstimates. The best tracking method is the Y chromosome because (absent mutation) it passes directly from father to son identically. It is easy to lose such a pattern. One generation of a lot of females or males that don’t reproduce as much or whatever and it is almost gone. Give it a few more generations and it either explodes out again or dies off.

It is why we have the Y-chromosomal Adam (and harder to pin down mitochondrial Eve). The “last” person who is a patrilineal father of every male alive. It goes way back but as haplogroups die out this “last” person potentially moves down the family tree.

Link to comment
13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Unless they intermarried with existing groups when they arrived in which case their might be no remaining material.

To be more precise there would be remaining genetic markers but with our current state of knowledge we would not know what they were or be able to tell where they might have come from.

Edited by The Nehor
Link to comment
3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To be more precise there would be remaining genetic markers but with our current state of knowledge we would not know what they were or be able to tell where they might have come from.

Even with the loss of about 50% of parental DNA with each generation?

Link to comment
22 hours ago, Islander said:

Not so. DNA material is not "diluted" by intermarriage. There are 3.2 billion base pairs in the the DNA and there are genetic markers that are passed across thousands of years from both sides, maternal and paternal. That is why we know that the Native Americans are descendants from North East Asia people that migrated to the Americas 10,000 plus years ago. They share genetic markers with fossils recovered in that region. The Y chromosome research is exciting because it looks at very specific (3) defects passed from fathers to sons in every generation. It is like a clock which allows to "count back" how many generations/years to ancestral DNA and track movement of said groups across the earth. It is rather exciting to look at history thru the lenses of DNA.

Tain’t what a man doesn’t know that gets him into difficulty. It’s what he knows for sure that just ain’t so. 

Link to comment
22 hours ago, webbles said:

The Polynesian interaction was known to have happened 1200 AD.  So, if a DNA expert thinks it would be "impossible" to detect a small amount of ancestry from the 1200 AD, it would be even more impossible to detect a small amount of ancestry 1800 years earlier.

In the book Traced that @Islander references above, there's a discussion about Haplogroup T being a genetic marker for Abraham and is enriched in Jewish populations. The author mentions that one of the most intriguing revelations to come from research into T is its presence in the Lemba Jews of Southern Africa. The Lemba Jews claim to be descendants of Jewish traders (similar to the Lehites in many ways) that spread out across the Indian Ocean to the isles of the sea, and their DNA seems to confirm this. 

What isn't discussed by the author is that Haplogroup T is also present in the Comoros Islands. These islands were surprisingly settled by the same groups of Austronesian mariners that sailed all the way to Easter Island, and as @webbles mentions above, are likely to have reached the Americas where their signal could have been easily drowned out. Its only been within the past five years that an Australasian signal has been found in South and Central America.

If ancient Jewish Haplogroup T and J are found among the Austronesians in the west, and those same Austronesians interacted with Americans in the east, I would not be surprised if other unexpected Old World haplogroups like T, J, and R turn up in the Pacific islands as they are in the islands of Malaysia and Indonesia (source) and even as far as Bali.

For example, even Q (the predominant American Y haplogroup) has been unexpectedly found in the Comoros Islands, Bali and Polynesia. (source)

xQh0PkU.png
There's a lot of interesting things yet to learn from ancient DNA

Edited by Zosimus
Link to comment

Hey, are we still talking about the Church and the Flood?

There are a lot of things that impress me about the Church, but if Noah's flood wasn't a planet-wide event that left only eight people alive on the entire planet, then I'm impressed at how consistently wrong about this the Church has been.

Here is a collection of teachings from Church leaders, curriculum and official publications that teach a literal global flood. I searched for any quotes that even acknowledge the possibility of a limited or metaphorical flood, but couldn't find a single one. If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

 

Quote

Is not today much like Noah’s day when the population of the earth was wiped out in the flood and but eight righteous souls were spared?   Some doubt that there was a flood, but by modern revelation we know that it did take place.

Elder Mark Petersen, “Follow the Prophets”.  October 1981 General Conference

 

The Lord further indicated that all flesh was corrupt in those days, and so he brought forth the flood and destroyed all flesh except Noah and his family. Therefore, we are all descendants of righteous Noah. But the family concept is under very serious attack today all over the world.

Elder Hartman Rector, Jr., “Turning the Hearts”. April 1981 General Conference.

 

There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved” (1 Pet. 3:20).

President Gordon B. Hinckley, “If Ye Are Prepared, Ye Shall Not Fear”. October 2005 General Conference.

Another one was Noah, who was chosen to be the second father of the human race here on earth, after the flood.

Elder William Bennett, “Covenants and Blessings”. October 1975 General Conference.

 

Two generations later the Lord was so pained by that generation “without affection” (Moses 7:33) that he opened the windows of heaven and cleansed the entire earth with water.

Jeffry R. Holland, “A Promised Land”. Ensign, June 1976.

Here is what college-age LDS students are taught in the Church published curriculum of the Church Educational System (including Institute and BYU classes):

(4-15) Genesis 7:19. How Could the Flood Cover the Entire Earth, Including Mountains? What Was the Significance of This Immersion?

“I would like to know by what known law the immersion of the globe could be accomplished. It is explained here in a few words: ‘The windows of heaven were opened’ that is, the waters that exist throughout the space surrounding the earth from whence come these clouds from which the rain descends. That was one cause. Another cause was  ‘the fountains of the great deep were broken up’—that is something beyond the oceans, something outside of the seas, some reservoirs of which we  have no knowledge, were made to contribute to this event, and the waters were let loose by the hand and by the power of God; for God said He would bring  a flood upon the earth and He brought it, but He  had to let loose the fountains of the great deep, and pour out the waters from there, and when the flood commenced to subside, we are told ‘that the fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained, and the waters returned from off the earth.’ Where did they go to? From whence they came. Now, I will show you something else on the back of that. Some people talk very philosophically about tidal waves coming along. But the question is—How could you get a tidal wave out of the Pacific ocean, say, to cover the Sierra Nevadas? But the Bible does not tell us it was a tidal wave. It simply tells that ‘all the high hills that were under the whole heaven were covered Fifteen cubits upwards did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.’ That is, the earth was immersed. It was a period of baptism.” (John Taylor in Journal of Discourses, 26:74–75.)

Orson Pratt declared:
“The first ordinance instituted for the cleansing of the earth, was that of immersion in water; it was buried in the liquid element, and all things sinful upon the face of the earth were washed away. As it came forth  from the ocean floor, like the new-born child, it was innocent; it rose to newness of life. It was its second  birth from the womb of mighty waters—a new world issuing from the ruins of the old, clothed with all the  innocence of this first creation.” (In Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:20.)

“The earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides
the law of its creation, has been baptized with water will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and
by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon” (Brigham Young, in Smith, Answers to Gospel
Questions, 4:20).

Here is what is taught to adult members of the Church in their Church Sunday School classes:

b. Genesis 7:11–24; 8; 9:8–17. It rains for 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:11–12). All people and creatures that are not on the ark die, and the waters cover the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:13–24). When the waters recede, Noah, his family, and the animals leave the ark (Genesis 8:1–19), and Noah offers sacrifice to the Lord (Genesis 8:20–22). The Lord establishes his covenant with Noah and sets the rainbow as a token of the covenant (Genesis 9:8–17; note that the Joseph Smith Translation of verse 15 states that the covenant was between God and Noah, not between God and every living creature).

More quotes, little ambiguity.

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets.

Donald Parry, “The Flood and the Tower of Babel”.  Ensign, January 1998

Following the Flood, Noah and his three sons and their wives received a calling much like that given to Adam and Eve. They were commanded to “multiply and replenish the earth,” which would fulfill a prophecy made by Methuselah “that from [Noah’s] loins should spring all the kingdoms of the earth” (Moses 8:3). As the Prophet Joseph Smith explained, “Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood.” 11 Noah fulfilled his specific calling just as Adam and Eve did in opening earth life and as the Savior did in redeeming earth life.

The Flood covered the whole earth (see Gen. 7:19–23).

Joseph B. Romney, “Noah, The Great Preacher of Righteousness”.  Ensign, February 1998

 

The worldwide flood of Noah’s time has been accepted as a benchmark historical event by Jews and Christians for thousands of years—and similar traditions appear among the Greeks, Mesopotamians, and some American Indian tribes. Yet the story is regarded skeptically today in our secular world. Most current geology texts ignore the Flood, ridicule it, or use it as an example of prescientific superstition.

Consequently, Latter-day Saints and other Christians sometimes find the apparent conflict between their faith in the scriptures and their education puzzling. The account of Noah’s flood is a typical illustration of the differences which occur between scriptural information and modern secular teachings about the history of the world.

F. Kent Nielsen, “The Gospel and the Scientific View: How the Earth Came to Be”. Ensign, September 1980

In prayer Noah asked the Lord never to destroy the earth again with flood. Noah’s prayer was answered; the Lord promised Noah that He would never again destroy the entire earth by flood. From that time forth the rainbow would be a symbol of that promise.

“Noah and the Ark”. Liahona, September 1984

These people were so wicked that they were no longer allowed to pollute the earth by their presence on it or to bring innocent spirits into its decadent environment. The Lord decreed that all living things would be destroyed by flood, with the exception of a faithful few who would be spared so that God could begin anew his creative work and reestablish his covenant among men.

Kent P. Jackson, “An Age of Contrasts: From Adam to Abraham”. Ensign, February 1986.

According to the Old Testament, Noah found favor with the Lord and was commanded to build an ark to preserve human and animal life during the Flood (see Gen. 5–9).

Rex C. Reeve Jr., “A Latter-day Testament of Biblical Truth”. Ensign, January 2001.

The history of the peopling of the earth is really a history of the scattering of the descendants of Noah, who is sometimes referred to as the “second father of mankind.” This general scattering began soon after the Flood when the sons of Noah and their children began to spread forth “in their lands, … after their nations” (see Gen. 10:5, 20, 31) and was greatly accelerated at the time of the Tower of Babel, when the Lord confounded the people’s language and did “scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.” (Gen. 11:9.)

Lane Johnson, “Who and Where are the Lamanites?”. Ensign, December 1975.

Is not today much like Noah’s day, when the population of the earth was wiped out in the Flood and but eight souls were saved? (see Genesis 7; 1 Peter 3:20).

Elder David E. Sorensen, “Preisthood, Agency and Black Power”. Ensign, September 2007.

*This is a bonus one.  Proponents of a “Limited Flood” have to explain what, exactly, God was covenanting with Noah.  No more local floods?  And what about all the other people living all over the world?

The Lord made a covenant with Noah, and the rainbow became the token of that eternal covenant with all mankind. (See Gen. 9:13.)

Elder Howard W. Hunter, “Commitment to God”. October 1981 Conference.

 

 

Edited by cinepro
Link to comment
11 hours ago, cinepro said:

Hey, are we still talking about the Church and the Flood?

There are a lot of things that impress me about the Church, but if Noah's flood wasn't a planet-wide event that left only eight people alive on the entire planet, then I'm impressed at how consistently wrong about this the Church has been.

Here is a collection of teachings from Church leaders, curriculum and official publications that teach a literal global flood. I searched for any quotes that even acknowledge the possibility of a limited or metaphorical flood, but couldn't find a single one. If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

 

 

 

Well....it's Mark Petersen....so....

Link to comment
12 hours ago, cinepro said:

 I searched for any quotes that even acknowledge the possibility of a limited or metaphorical flood, but couldn't find a single one. If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

John A Widstoe:

Quote

THE GREAT FLOOD. The Old Testament records a flood that was just over fifteen cubits (sometimes assumed to be about twenty-six feet) deep and covered the entire landscape: "And all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered" (Gen. 7:19). Scientifically this account leaves many questions unanswered, especially how a measurable depth could cover mountains. Elder John A. Widtsoe, writing in 1943, offered this perspective: The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation. The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep or deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us [Widtsoe, p. 127].[1]

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Signs of the Times, 41:

Quote

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “Somebody said, ‘Brother Smith, do you mean to say that it is going to be literal fire?’ I said, ‘Oh, no, it will not be literal fire any more than it was literal water that covered the earth in the flood.’”[2]


 

Link to comment
17 hours ago, cinepro said:

Hey, are we still talking about the Church and the Flood?

There are a lot of things that impress me about the Church, but if Noah's flood wasn't a planet-wide event that left only eight people alive on the entire planet, then I'm impressed at how consistently wrong about this the Church has been.

Here is a collection of teachings from Church leaders, curriculum and official publications that teach a literal global flood. I searched for any quotes that even acknowledge the possibility of a limited or metaphorical flood, but couldn't find a single one. If anyone knows of any, please let me know.

 

 

 

It is a variant of this.

citogenesis.png

Link to comment
9 hours ago, pogi said:

John A Widstoe:

Joseph Fielding Smith, The Signs of the Times, 41:


 

Widstoe's quote still demands a global flood that covered the entire Earth. He only suggests the depth might not have been uniform over the entire planet. Here's is what else he said, right after the part you quoted. Odd that you left it out.
 

Quote

Latter-day Saints know, through modern revelation, that the Garden of Eden was on the North American continent and that Adam and Eve began their conquest of the earth in the upper part of what is now the state of Missouri. It seems very probable that the children of our first earthly parents moved down along the fertile, pleasant lands of the Mississippi valley. The great floods that have often occurred there make the description in Genesis seem very reasonable indeed. And if the historian saw the flood there, it is not unlikely that the waters covered the highest points or peaks, for there the mountains are but hills.

  Great floods have visited the earth. That has been amply proved. For example, Professor C. Leonard Woolley, studying through excavations the ancient history of Mesopotamia, has found indisputable evidences of a flood in the neighborhood of Abraham's ancestral city of Ur. Whether that flood is the great flood of Genesis is not certain, for we do not know whether at that time the children of Adam had spread from their original home in what is now America into the lands now denominated Asia. (Woolley, The Sumerians)

  Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling "the measure of its creation." They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water (D. & C. 88:25; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:274; Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 603; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 1:331).

  Though the whole of the earth was covered with water, the depth was immaterial. When a person is baptized, it does not matter how far under the water he is brought, nor whether every part of him is at the same depth. The essential part of the symbolism is that he should be completely immersed. (Evidences and Reconciliations, Widstoe (Emphasis added))


And just so I'm clear, you think JFS didn't believe in a literal, global flood, even though he said this:
 

Quote

Noah received a dispensation of warning when the whole world had fallen into apostasy, and he was commanded to build the ark in which he and his family were saved from the flood, while all the rest of the world perished. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1)

And this...?
 

Quote

Now a word as to the reason for the Flood. It was the baptism of the earth, and that had to be by immersion. If the water did not cover the entire earth, then it was not baptized, for the baptism of the Lord is not pouring or sprinkling. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol .2)

 

Link to comment
39 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Widstoe's quote still demands a global flood that covered the entire Earth. He only suggests the depth might not have been uniform over the entire planet. Here's is what else he said, right after the part you quoted. Odd that you left it out.
 


And just so I'm clear, you think JFS didn't believe in a literal, global flood, even though he said this:
 

And this...?
 

 

Though Widstoe believes in a global thread, seems to leave room for others who believe in a local flood with this:

“Weshould remember that when inspired writersdeal with historical incidents they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation. The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of the writer.”

and this:

“It seems very probable that the children of our first earthly parents moved down along the fertile, pleasant lands of the Mississippi valley. The great floods that have often occurred there make the description in Genesis seem very reasonable indeed. And if the historian saw the flood there, it is not unlikely that the waters covered the highest points or peaks, for there the mountains are but hills.”

 If JFS believed the story was an allegory, the way he speaks about the flood makes perfect sense.  All that I know is that when he was asked directly, he said that “no” it isn’t literal.

Edited by pogi
Link to comment
8 hours ago, pogi said:

 If JFS believed the story was an allegory, the way he speaks about the flood makes perfect sense.  All that I know is that when he was asked directly, he said that “no” it isn’t literal.

I haven’t settled on whether allegory, cosmological, or historical but local…but in discussing details, if those issues are not brought up, if all I am doing is telling the story and discussing the principles of discipleship it teaches, one could easily assume I believe in global historical because I will repeat what scripture says and how it is taught in Primary because I was a Primary teacher for 20 years and it’s a habit.

I am not saying this locks in JFS to believing it was an allegory every time he talked about it, perhaps his views changed with time…but imo since you do have an example of him saying it was not literal, if the source is trustworthy, I am leaving it open as a possibility.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...