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Distinct polygamy concerns


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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Also, the majority of adult church members are now unmarried, widowed, or divorced. This is a significant change. It includes more than half our Relief Society sisters, and more than half our adult priesthood brothers.”

If more than half of the brothers are also currently unmarried (though as noted in the article widowed or divorced may not be currently single), the solution seems less likely to be plural marriage than somehow changing attitudes towards marriage or making it easier for singles to make connections in larger areas (maybe we should start have older single adult only education weeks or regional get togethers).

https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2021/05/are-half-of-all-church-members-in-the-us-single/

And when the celestial kingdom is portrayed with our own Mother in Heaven hidden away, how is that even something a woman may want to happen to her in another world, absent from her own children?? If we're told that we must become like our Heavenly Father that doesn't apply to the women apparently. Because she's hidden from us, and we're told we mustn't speak of her, she's too sacred. Well that just stinks to high heaven, hey, a pun! 

I recently listened to this podcast, thought you may enjoy it. It's with two women who are active believing LDS.

https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-099-we-dont-believe-our-own-stuff-heavenly-mother-edition/

Introduction and quotes below are CP'd:

Who we pray to and how we envision God is personal, but the Church organization can and does limit our collective discourse about Heavenly Mother. Many feminists have been disciplined for speaking and writing publicly about Her. What does this silencing say about the importance of the doctrine? And is an unwillingness to allow deeper engagement with the feminine divine in our teaching and worship indicative of the organization’s regard for women generally? Why don’t we seem to believe our own stuff about one of the most unique—and for many compelling—aspects of our theology? 

“It seems LDS women wake up to patriarchal inequality in cohorts. Each cohort believing they are the first to wake up. Each waking up largely without the wisdom and experiences of previous generation’s awakenings, who are usually long gone. Unsurprisingly these women are not discussed at church.” —Celeste Davis

“Her existence is dangerous to patriarchy, for which reason I should think the whole effort was to keep the issue about Her very quiet. The less people think about her, the less they will question her position, the church’s position about Her. The less, in short, they will question male rule. I like to imagine what would happen if Mormons really began believing in Her and Her equality with Father: polygamy, the all-male priesthood, all aspects of patriarchy would be in deepest jeopardy.” —Sonia Johnson

“Because when we have direct access to female divine, we start questioning the need for so many male middle-men. Because when Heavenly Mother leaves Her silent, invisible pedestal and emerges as a deity with a personality and power, women begin to leave their silent, invisible pedestals too, and step into their own power.” —Celeste Davis

“It’s not that an idea of god the father was so upsetting to me, it was that it was so incomplete. God as the father and Jesus as his only son made zero sense. It just felt like one side of a far more inclusive and radical love story.” —Meggan Watterson, MM Revealed, p. 47

“As children of heavenly parents, we embody traits from each parent. Because we have come to understand God as He, the majority of our discussion about divine attributes we seek to emulate originate from a male deity. We have had little experience thinking of God as feminine and masculine, let alone considering Mother God as an autonomous, whole being with unique traits that we, as her spirit children, have also inherited. We are less experienced at seeking out the Mother’s attributes. I believe that a knowledge of her character, power, and purpose creates wholeness in ourselves, in our relationships, and in our theology. Harmonizing Their divinely feminine and divinely masculine principles inside our souls leads to unity with Them.” —Kathryn Knight Sonntag

“Here’s how I can best explain what it’s like for me sitting in the pew when only god the father is preached. Remember how in the 1980s, we still thought it was OK to smoke on planes? The statistics had already been reported about the harmful effects of smoking, and even secondhand smoke, but there we were picking our seats in the smoking or non-smoking section. 

And here we are in 21st century rife with all the statistics on the status of women the world…… here we are in an age of information about the psychological impact on a girl who only ever hears God referred to as male and as the father. Here we are in the world that practices or reinforces within its culture what is preached in its places of worship. 

This is what it’s like for me to sit in a church that’s filled with only “God of the fathers”. It’s like sitting in the smoking section of an airplane in the 1980s. Everyone around me thinks we are golden. And I’m sitting there choking on the fumes.” —Meggan Watterson, MM Revealed, p. 48

“I believe asking questions and exploring possibilities are indispensable ways to show love and reverence for revealed truth.” —Kathryn Knight Sonntag





 

 

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4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

We often refer to the idea that polygamy is to increase the number of children which is then countered with each wife has more children in monogamy than polygamy.

I came across the article below today and I found it interesting.  In a religion that teaches that marriage is a requirement for exaltation the Church has hit a 50% single adult female threshold. Obviously this number includes divorced women and single mothers who do have children.

But surely less kids is more than no kids.  Doesn't every one of God's children deserve the opportunity to be a mother or father to an eternal family?  Does the less kids in polygamy vs monogamy argument hold any water when so many have no kids or even no opportunity?

Thoughts?

If we are talking about polygamy it doesn’t really matter what percentage of women are single unless we also talk about the percentage of men that are single.  If 75% of the men were single (not by any way saying the percentage is that high) it wouldn't make any sense to having more than one wife.  

The only reason I remotely care about the less kids thing is the arguments that polygamy produced more children when it didn't.  None of my figuring in that post had to do with who deserves it or what God's plan was etc.  It was purely numbers.  I'm not even arguing that we should have monogamy for more children.  

I'm not really worried about who is and isn't a mom in the next life.  It seems to take the idea there are a finite number of Spirits.  Who knows if there are or not, but if there are is it fair that the last male and female don't get a chance to be a parent? "Too bad you are the youngest." I don't think Heavenly Father works that way. But if God has something in mind for the youngest  in the next life then why would I worry about the single women (and not the men) having children without polygamy? He doesn't love them any less. I trust He has worked it out.

Edit to add: That may come off more flippant than I feel.  I do care about those who want children and don't have them.  I mourn with them.  I know it is very difficult just because of my little bit of going through it myself for a time.  I just trust that for the next life God helps those who didn't have the opportunities to do so many things in this life and so it doesn't matter if you didn't find a husband, or didn't have the health,  or were notable to conceive, or you died as a child or if you are the last Spirit. He loves them all.

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

https://www.ldsliving.com/sister-steven ... al/s/84962

  • "I don't know if you are aware that we've reached a point in the Church now where more than half of our women are single," Sister Stephens shared. "Women in Relief Society 18 years and older, just about 51 percent are single."

 

Edited by Rain
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15 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm not really worried about who is and isn't a mom in the next life.  It seems to take the idea there are a finite number of Spirits.  Who knows if there are or not, but if there are is it fair that the last male and female don't get a chance to be a parent? "Too bad you are the youngest." I don't think Heavenly Father works that way. But if God has something in mind for the youngest  in the next life then why would I worry about the single women (and not the men) having children without polygamy? He doesn't love them any less. I trust He has worked it out.

I'm pretty sure he has worked it out.

Examining the number of worlds available to send Father's children to, we have these verses (Moses 1:29-39):

29 And [Moses] beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It appears that God has created many worlds in which His children have dwelt, are dwelling, and will dwell. In v. 35 He says that we can't number how many worlds, but He can, because they are His. In v.37 He says that He is going to keep creating worlds for His children: no end to my works.

This implies that even if the number of spirit children won't be infinite, there will be far more than we can imagine, and it appears that God is in it for the long haul.

Now, even without polygamy to fudge the numbers, how many men have lived on this earth and have not fathered any children because they never married? In my second mission city there was the one elderly sister who had never married because her fiancee was an officer in the German Army and had been killed in action during WW 1. He was never a father, and she was never a mother. One of my great great uncles never found a woman who would marry him. One of my great uncles died aged 10 during the 1918 flu pandemic. The mortality rate of male children is higher than that of female children. 

In Doctrines of Salvation, President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “No woman will be condemned by the Lord for refusing to accept a proposal which she feels she could not properly accept. … If in your heart you feel the gospel is true and would, under proper conditions, receive these ordinances and sealing blessings in the temple of the Lord, and that is your faith and your hope and your desire, and that does not come to you now, the Lord will make it up and you shall be blessed—for no blessing will be withheld. The Lord will judge you according to the desires of your hearts, when blessings are withheld in this life, and he is not going to condemn you for that which you cannot help.”

And I am sure the same applies to men.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure he has worked it out.

Examining the number of worlds available to send Father's children to, we have these verses (Moses 1:29-39):

29 And [Moses] beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof.
30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?
31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

It appears that God has created many worlds in which His children have dwelt, are dwelling, and will dwell. In v. 35 He says that we can't number how many worlds, but He can, because they are His. In v.37 He says that He is going to keep creating worlds for His children: no end to my works.

This implies that even if the number of spirit children won't be infinite, there will be far more than we can imagine, and it appears that God is in it for the long haul.

Now, even without polygamy to fudge the numbers, how many men have lived on this earth and have not fathered any children because they never married? In my second mission city there was the one elderly sister who had never married because her fiancee was an officer in the German Army and had been killed in action during WW 1. He was never a father, and she was never a mother. One of my great great uncles never found a woman who would marry him. One of my great uncles died aged 10 during the 1918 flu pandemic. The mortality rate of male children is higher than that of female children. 

In Doctrines of Salvation, President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “No woman will be condemned by the Lord for refusing to accept a proposal which she feels she could not properly accept. … If in your heart you feel the gospel is true and would, under proper conditions, receive these ordinances and sealing blessings in the temple of the Lord, and that is your faith and your hope and your desire, and that does not come to you now, the Lord will make it up and you shall be blessed—for no blessing will be withheld. The Lord will judge you according to the desires of your hearts, when blessings are withheld in this life, and he is not going to condemn you for that which you cannot help.”

And I am sure the same applies to men.

 

 

This has brought to mind that I had only an uncle who died without children.  My uncle died either right before or soon after I was born so I have no memories of him.  My aunt died a few weeks ago.  I often thought of my aunt and marriage and children as we discussed it and she adopted a child when I was a teenager.  I always thought of my aunt being single, but because my uncle was not known to me and died so young I never thought of him being single till your post.

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On 7/23/2022 at 6:59 PM, Tacenda said:

And when the celestial kingdom is portrayed with our own Mother in Heaven hidden away, how is that even something a woman may want to happen to her in another world, absent from her own children??

Maybe she's taking a nap. She could have been exhausted from the first 4.6B years of raising humanity from brainless lumps and went for a laydown 10k years ago.

I expect she'll be pretty cheesed off when she wakes up and finds the kids trashed the place.

To HF: "I leave you alone for ONE epoch..."

Edited by Chum
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On 7/23/2022 at 3:59 PM, Tacenda said:

And when the celestial kingdom is portrayed with our own Mother in Heaven hidden away, how is that even something a woman may want to happen to her in another world, absent from her own children?? If we're told that we must become like our Heavenly Father that doesn't apply to the women apparently. Because she's hidden from us, and we're told we mustn't speak of her, she's too sacred. Well that just stinks to high heaven, hey, a pun!

That is one way to look at it.  I look at it a different way.  If the Father and Son are one, then the Father and Mother must also be one.  Which means whatever we know or don't know about Heavenly Mother is with her full consent and wishes.  So if one actually wants to honor the Mother, they would accept her decisions.  The Father, Mother, and Son are the wisest, most intelligent beings that exist in the Universe.  I think they know what they are doing.

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12 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

That is one way to look at it.  I look at it a different way.  If the Father and Son are one, then the Father and Mother must also be one. 

Yes.

12 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Which means whatever we know or don't know about Heavenly Mother is with her full consent and wishes.  So if one actually wants to honor the Mother, they would accept her decisions. 

This is a huge assumption.  

I wish I could think of the term for what you have done here, but I can't.  You've made it so if anyone has questions about Heavenly Mother, asks those questions, desires to know more about her etc is dishonoring her based on your assumption.

12 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Father, Mother, and Son are the wisest, most intelligent beings that exist in the Universe.  I think they know what they are doing.

 

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On 7/25/2022 at 9:10 PM, Rain said:

I wish I could think of the term for what you have done here, but I can't.  You've made it so if anyone has questions about Heavenly Mother, asks those questions, desires to know more about her etc is dishonoring her based on your assumption.

No,  Asking questions is fine.  Nothing wrong with questions.  But the true answers to those question will not be known until they are revealed to us.  All we will do is make guesses on the answers to those questions and be wrong in our conclusions 95% of the time.  In the end, we just have to have the faith that the Father, Mother, and Son know what they are doing. 

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1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

No,  Asking questions is fine.  Nothing wrong with questions.  But the true answers to those question will not be known until they are revealed to us.  All we will do is make guesses on the answers to those questions and be wrong in our conclusions 95% of the time.  In the end, we just have to have the faith that the Father, Mother, and Son know what they are doing. 

As long as you recognize that your guess that the reason we don't know about her is because of her wishes might be in that wrong 95% of the time group.

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