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Distinct polygamy concerns


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3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Ron go, if you’re still reading this, consider the following:

There are only about 45 minutes of teaching time. You cannot have time to deal with the details. Do the broad brush. Polygamy is an ancient practice.  Goes at least as far back as Abraham, and likely was practiced pre flood. Other Israelites practiced it after the escape from Egypt. We don’t have a lot of detail, but it certainly fell out of favor by Roman times. Romans were monogamists, and dominated Mediterranean culture. 
As part of the restoration of all things, Joseph Smith restored this principle.  Don’t get caught up in the details. Temple sealings were looked at in a very different way in the 1840s than they are now. Did JS practice polygamy?  He did, as did other contemporaries. But the practice was kept secret from the world and many members, because leaders knew what the outside (and even within the church) reaction would be.  Some of the actions and statements by leaders of the time should be seen in this context. It wasn’t until the migration to Utah that the practice became more general and open. That’s because in Utah the numbers of members present dominated society. 
Is the practice of polygamy on an individual level a prerequisite to get to the Celestial Kingdom?  No. That’s absurd. 
 

There is really no way of knowing, in general, how happy people were with polygamy. Probably about as happy as marriage is now. Consider a 50% divorce rate!  Clearly our leaders defended it. It’s biblical so relatively easy to defend.  And then by 1890, the practice was given up due to US laws against it. 
 

That’s about 45 minutes. 

 It's no secret the divorce rate in polygamy was high, Utah became an easy divorce state for the nation. That usually doesn't happen in happy marriages. 

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

BY is entitled to his opinion, but it is not scriptural.  One must take these sorts of things in the context of the audience and times it was said.

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14 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

BY is entitled to his opinion, but it is not scriptural.  One must take these sorts of things in the context of the audience and times it was said.

That's convenient.

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

That is the 60,000 dollar question. What IS the benefit of polygamy? Eternally. What is the point? What possible spiritual benefit could there be for multiple wives or husbands?  How does that make anyone more righteous than monogamy? The only possible reason would be is if there are left over men or women. 

I have asked this for over a decade. Crickets.

The first polygamist that we know of for sure was Abraham.  See the quote from Wiki as to the benefit of this polygamist act.  A great nation arose.

"

According to the Bible, Hagar was the Egyptian slave of Sarai, Abram's wife (whose names later became Sarah and Abraham). Sarai had been barren for a long time and sought a way to fulfill God's promise that Abram would be father of many nations, especially since they had grown old, so she offered Hagar to Abram to be his concubine.[7]

Hagar became pregnant, and tension arose between the two women. Sarai complained to Abram, and treated Hagar harshly after Abram's advice that it was within her rights to do so, and Hagar ran away.[8]

Hagar fled into the desert on her way to Shur. At a spring en route, an angel appeared to Hagar, who instructed her to return to Sarai, so that she may bear a child who "shall be a wild *** of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren" (Genesis 16:12).[9] Then she was told to call her son Ishmael. Afterward, Hagar referred to God as "El Roi" (variously "god of sight"; "god saw me"; "god who appears").[10] She then returned to Abram and Sarai, and soon gave birth to a son, whom she named as the angel had instructed.[11] "

 

So not crickets.

Not everything should be fed to us.  Do some research.

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

That is the 60,000 dollar question. What IS the benefit of polygamy? Eternally. What is the point? What possible spiritual benefit could there be for multiple wives or husbands?  How does that make anyone more righteous than monogamy? The only possible reason would be is if there are left over men or women. 

I have asked this for over a decade. Crickets.

No ordinance or covenant makes us righteous (or more righteous), only our management of them in our day-to-day life and God’s grace in association with our discipleship or practice. The ultimate benefit is a relationship with God and membership with others in the post-resurrection Church of the Firstborn. Thus, God raises up seed, figuratively and literally.

We become so inclined to receive additional ordinances and practices (3 Nephi 11:37-38; Mosiah 3:19) when God baptizes us with fire after the first  ordinance is received. This is something no one else can do. This is what enables us to endure various refinement processes and tests. These tests can be very individual or very general, universal as to time/place/culture or specific to particular circumstances, and the same practice might serve as a trial of excess for some while a trial of lack for others, resolvable only by becoming as a little child. This is the case with practices such as tithing, fasting/offerings, callings, study, prayer, etc. – they can seem easy or difficult, resulting in a loss of faith and righteousness through complacency or discouragement. It seems to me that historically, the Restored Church’s practice of plural marriage was reserved for a particular time and place, and as reasoned above, makes us no more righteous than any other practice.

Edited by CV75
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3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

That's convenient.

I know, right?

And so was the BY quote.  From a person who doesn't have much faith, if any.  I don't want to hear it.

The reality is that many on this forum take any "prophetic pronouncement" as scripture and try to use it as a club to score points.  But we know that those pronouncements are just that:  pronouncements and opinions.  No one seems to spend any time looking into the context or the audience receiving these pronouncements.  I take it all with a grain of salt, unless I can confirm it by the Holy Ghost.

We have scripture and it's well known an canonized.  And it's silent as to BY's opinion.

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37 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

The first polygamist that we know of for sure was Abraham.  See the quote from Wiki as to the benefit of this polygamist act.  A great nation arose.

"

According to the Bible, Hagar was the Egyptian slave of Sarai, Abram's wife (whose names later became Sarah and Abraham). Sarai had been barren for a long time and sought a way to fulfill God's promise that Abram would be father of many nations, especially since they had grown old, so she offered Hagar to Abram to be his concubine.[7]

Hagar became pregnant, and tension arose between the two women. Sarai complained to Abram, and treated Hagar harshly after Abram's advice that it was within her rights to do so, and Hagar ran away.[8]

Hagar fled into the desert on her way to Shur. At a spring en route, an angel appeared to Hagar, who instructed her to return to Sarai, so that she may bear a child who "shall be a wild *** of a man: his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren" (Genesis 16:12).[9] Then she was told to call her son Ishmael. Afterward, Hagar referred to God as "El Roi" (variously "god of sight"; "god saw me"; "god who appears").[10] She then returned to Abram and Sarai, and soon gave birth to a son, whom she named as the angel had instructed.[11] "

 

So not crickets.

Not everything should be fed to us.  Do some research.

Are you serious? So the purpose of polygyny is to give men lots of offspring through sex slaves. Lovely. Now go research the topic of this thread. 

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Neither cases of polygyny turned out that well for Lamech’s wives or for Abraham’s wives and children it would seem, considering how Hagar and Ishmael got kicked out eventually and the wives and children ended up hating and fearing each other. 

Edited by Calm
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14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Neither cases of polygyny turned out that well for Lamech’s wives or for Abraham’s wives and children it would seem, considering how Hagar and Ishmael got kicked out eventually and the wives and children ended up hating and fearing each other. 

Do a little more research, and you will see that great nations arose from Abraham's polygamy.  Back in the day (and even now) God wants His children to have an opportunity to obtain bodies.  That is the benefit.

AND,

Julianne, what do you think God's purposes are???  You are displaying some serious ignorance.   Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryto bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And guess what?  If you don't want to be a polygamous wife, you don't have to.  You have your agency. 

My wife is also virulently against my having another wife.  I tease her about it all the time.:-)

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13 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

you will see that great nations arose from Abraham's polygamy.

That fight each other…and some that seek the utter destruction of the other.

Polygynous wives have less children than monogamous wives, so if it is all about numbers of bodies for spirits, then we should be insisting on monogamy.

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Do a little more research, and you will see that great nations arose from Abraham's polygamy.  Back in the day (and even now) God wants His children to have an opportunity to obtain bodies.  That is the benefit.

AND,

Julianne, what do you think God's purposes are???  You are displaying some serious ignorance.   Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryto bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And guess what?  If you don't want to be a polygamous wife, you don't have to.  You have your agency. 

My wife is also virulently against my having another wife.  I tease her about it all the time.:-)

You have not presented any research at all, you are only quoting scripture and providing your self-serving interpretations. Insulting people is not a substitute for knowledge of the topic. 

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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

That fight each other…

Polygynous wives have less children than monogamous wives, so if it is all about numbers of bodies for spirits, then we should be insisting on monogamy.

I'm sure you'll have the last word, but Abraham's child with Hagar had a very specific purpose.  To fulfil God's promise of great progeny.

Realistically, it's very likely that Hagar was sealed to Abraham under the covenant, as we currently understand it.  Otherwise the child would have been a *******.  And there's not a hint of that in the bible.  Both Ishmael and Isaac were present at Abraham's burial.

I don't know what other "benefits" may come of polygamy, but I feel you and Julianne are willfully seeing only what you want, and are ignoring the Lord's purposes.  You asked for a purpose, and I gave you one. 

 

Remember, YOU don't have to be a polygamist!!!:-)

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3 minutes ago, juliann said:

You have not presented any research at all, you are only quoting scripture and providing your self-serving interpretations. Insulting people is not a substitute for knowledge of the topic. 

Only quoting Scripture.........................I'll take that for what it's worth.  Actually, quoting scripture is my research.  I'm open to other interpretations, but realistically all I'm saying is what's in the text.

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3 hours ago, juliann said:

You are an admitted fundamentalist. There are just as many negative accounts, probably far more, than positive. You seriously need to stop grasping at straws. It doesn’t work now that women’s diaries are being researched. Also, the divorce rate in polygamist marriages makes your claim specious. 

I am no such thing.  Not sure why you keep posting that.  I may share some beliefs with them but I am a Church member.

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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Only quoting Scripture.........................I'll take that for what it's worth.  Actually, quoting scripture is my research.  I'm open to other interpretations, but realistically all I'm saying is what's in the text.

If you are researching ancient texts, you research. And for solid research, you need the original language. You do it with methodology like critical source, text, literary, etc. criticism. You are merely cherry picking verses and pretending that is meaningful.

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3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

feel you and Julianne are willfully seeing only what you want

I personally think there will be limited polygamy eternally speaking given I agree with the reason I hear given all the time now that God would not ask a man to give up a family he loves, the wife and children he loves, to have to choose between two or more he loves.  I just think women will also be able to have multiple husbands since that reasoning applies just as well to them.  And they are now allowed to be sealed to more than one man at a time.  I trust in sealings, that they actually mean something very significant and don’t think it is meant just so the poor little woman feels better in mortality, but is meaningless eternally.

I just don’t think we should idealize what happened in the past in an attempt to justify the practice.  That is not going to persuade anyone who is not behind polygamy in the first place and may dissuade some who are if they start thinking that the only arguments to defend polygamy must be weak, otherwise why would someone appeal to them.

As far as Abraham and a great progeny, Isaac fills that role nicely already.  The promise was given to Sarah and fulfilled through Sarah.

I just find it hard to think of Abraham caring that much about Ishmael that he should be able to claim Ishmael’s descendants as his own given he didn’t defend the right of Hagar and his son to stay under his protection and care twice, just gave her to Sarah the first time even when pregnant to handle as she would…and Sarah treated her so poorly Hagar was willing to risk her life and a likely horrible existence as an outcast to get away from her.  We would call that criminal neglect and abuse these days.  It was legal and likely viewed as moral back then, but I highly doubt anyone would call Abraham’s behaviour back then as loving. It is not the ideal family we aim for today in the Church. Why pretend otherwise. Scripture shouldn’t be sugarcoated.  The second time he sends her off with just bread and water into the wilderness instead of providing her with a manservant, a goodly amount of provisions to last them until they reached a town, money to set them up there so Hagar wouldn’t have to become a servant or prostitute or the two wouldn’t have to beg to survive, and an mule or two for transport of the necessaries and maybe Hagar to start their new life in a respectable, hopefully safe manner.

It does sound like they got back together later on, hopefully Abraham was kinder to Ishmael at that point.

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I am no such thing.  Not sure why you keep posting that.  I may share some beliefs with them but I am a Church member.

A traditionalist is a better label for you, imo. Does that work for you?

There is a lot of baggage attached to “fundamentalist”, including it being the label for apostate groups who do not accept the authority of church leaders. 

Edited by Calm
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7 hours ago, juliann said:

 It's no secret the divorce rate in polygamy was high, Utah became an easy divorce state for the nation. That usually doesn't happen in happy marriages. 

More people involved, more risk of divorce.  Monogamy does not seem to do much better.  Like 50% of marriages today end in divorce.  Perhaps the best way to avoid divorce is not polygamy or monogamy but just staying single.

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18 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

More people involved, more risk of divorce.  Monogamy does not seem to do much better.  Like 50% of marriages today end in divorce.  Perhaps the best way to avoid divorce is not polygamy or monogamy but just staying single.

You need to compare divorce among monogamists back then to be meaningful, hopefully in the same community. 

Edited by Calm
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50 minutes ago, Calm said:

A traditionalist is a better label for you, imo. Does that work for you?

Sure.  Conservative vs progressive works.  Orthodox.  Originalist.

Joseph restored the full plan, from baby blessing to second anointing to grave dedication.  Everything we could need from birth to death.  Brigham and his immediate successors gave it systems, order, and pattern.

That plan survived intact until the 1920s, a good 80 years.  Since then it's been slowly dismantled and altered piece by piece until very little remains of the plan.

I'd take fundamentalist if it weren't for the association with wacky groups not affiliated with the Church.  That's their label now.

I'm a member of the Church.  I've never been excommunicated or disfellowshipped. I'm not as active as I was in my youth but it's the only Church or group I've ever attended.

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2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure.  Conservative vs progressive works.  Orthodox.  Originalist.

Joseph restored the full plan, from baby blessing to second anointing to grave dedication.  Everything we could need from birth to death.  

His method of sealing seems very incomplete in my view. 

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17 minutes ago, Calm said:

His method of sealing seems very incomplete in my view. 

As I said Brigham, John, Wilford etc systematized the principles and ordinances.  But they generally remained intact from the 1840s to the 1920s.  Then they began to be dismantled piece by piece over a century.

What happened after those that served with Joseph died is no different than what happened after Christ's apostles died out.  

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