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Would Mary Have Been Justified If She Aborted Jesus?


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Would Abraham have been morally justified at looking at the whole ‘sacrifice your son’ thing and going, “Nah, rather not.”?

Based on this the South Carolina legislature is passing a law criminalizing all parents who refuse to kill their own children when receiving a divine command to do so. The offense will be punishable by up to 20 years in prison and up to a $200,000 fine.

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1 minute ago, rongo said:

All of this discussion about abortion over the last few weeks has led me to think introspectively about the argument that has been made that abortion may be "better" and more merciful, happy, etc. for a baby than adoption, life with challenges, or an outright horrible life. I really think even a life of slavery, adversity, etc. would be preferable to preemptive abortion, and I believe that the child's spirit would forcefully agree. Even unspeakably bad lives have potential and bright spots, and I don't believe that we (even the mothers) have the right to interfere with the fountain of life and deny these children "my turn on earth." I know that some speculate that aborted babies will get other chances, but this is speculative (we don't know that this is true, and the forcefulness with which abortion has been condemned tends to indicate the opposite, doesn't it?), and I think this interfering with the plan, the fountain of life, and the agency (as in, full deprivation of the opportunity to experience life and exercise agency) is why abortion has been and still is condemned by the Church (reasonable and rare exceptions noted in policy). 

I agree but I suspect removing protections for voluntary abortions will likely result in more deaths overall.

I am not motivated by a desire to bring government policy into conformity with gospel law. That isn’t the government’s job. I want to create the most good and least bad possible with the law. I think this is going to cause A LOT more bad than good.

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6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Would Abraham have been morally justified at looking at the whole ‘sacrifice your son’ thing and going, “Nah, rather not.”?

Not in hindsight, from our perspective, because we know God commanded him to do it. 

This, to me, is the most difficult dilemma in scripture or history. You'd better be darn sure it's really God commanding you, and not your own thoughts, insanity, etc. Everyone today (including us) would condemn anyone claiming this as crazy (cf. Vallow, Lori and Daybell, Chad). And, this young man you're commanded to kill is the only possible fulfillment of the promises ---  and, he was a miracle baby in the couple's 80s. I think it would have to be a real trial, akin to Satan's temptations of Christ in the wilderness --- and it makes our own struggles to discern revelation from our own thoughts seem really small in comparison. 

But, if Abraham had refused, he would have willfully chosen not to do this type and shadow of what the Father went through in allowing the atonement. 

No, he would not have been morally justified. 

A woman who truly receives revelation that her abortion is justified is likewise justified in it, but there are strict policy restrictions on this. She'd also better be darn sure it's not self-deception, wishful thinking, etc. I think that's where you are going with this, right? 

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13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I agree but I suspect removing protections for voluntary abortions will likely result in more deaths overall.

As in, more deaths than the abortions alone? 60 million + since Roe? 

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not motivated by a desire to bring government policy into conformity with gospel law. That isn’t the government’s job.

Generally, I agree. I think this meddling with the fountain of life, agency, and "my turn on earth" simply puts this beyond libertarian laissez faire

And, I agree that as much as possible needs to be done to help mothers, families, and children if abortion is prohibited as elective birth control. 

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 Even unspeakably bad lives have potential and bright spots, and I don't believe that we (even the mothers) have the right to interfere with the fountain of life and deny these children "my turn on earth." I know that some speculate that aborted babies will get other chances, but this is speculative (we don't know that this is true, and the forcefulness with which abortion has been condemned tends to indicate the opposite, doesn't it?),”

What is the potential and/or  bright spot in the life of a child in a vegetative state or conscious, but brain damaged and in constant pain?  Serious question.

And the Bible does not treat abortion as an action like murder.  Your claim about the forcefulness only applies to modern prophets and there the exceptions the Church allows suggests they do get another chance, imo, or leadership would be a lot stronger pushing for women to endure even in the case of rape and incest, where now it is just seek the Lord’s will pretty much.  They don’t need permission from leadership even when counsel is advised in those cases or when the mother’s health is at risk.

If spirits did not have another chance when aborted, then they would be qualified immediately for exaltation as others who die before accountability. It makes no sense to assume that any spirit would be denied their chance at progress based on someone else’s choices. 

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For all of the “women’s empowerment,” pro-choice participants on this board: do you believe that Mary, given all the extreme difficulties she knew she would have to wade through, would have been justified (I.e. not committed a sin) if she had made the choice to abort Jesus? 

Is God morally justified in allowing people to die, including innocents? Is God justified in creating a life process wherein half or almost half of all fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses die in the womb or are spontaneously aborted by the body?

Either God needs no justification or God is justified. Likewise the woman. The universe is God's, and the body of the woman is hers or at the very least is her stewardship given her by God.

Edited by Meadowchik
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5 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Agree. I don’t believe God’s plan for his spirit children is thwarted by abortion. 

Yup, the plan God created uses (spontaneous) abortion regularly as part of the process giving life.

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8 hours ago, rongo said:

No.

a) no mother knows in advance that her child will turn out evil.

b) even Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. deserve to have a chance to use their agency, and not be preemptively aborted.

c) most people asking this question reject the reality and possibility of prophecy. On what grounds could a mother be justified in preemptively aborting because she thinks/knows he will turn out bad. That's worse than doing it because of Down's Syndrome or Spina bifida. And most people would say she was evil, deluded,and crazy.

 

You are responding to reality instead of the hypothetical that is proposed in the OP and my follow-up. 

If the literal version of the Bible is to be believed, then Mary knew she was carrying divine seed and the hypothetical question Teddy poses makes no sense at all. Not only wouldn't Mary do such a thing, in all likelihood she couldn't.

My hypothetical response would clearly have to include Klara Hitler knowing beforehand what evil her son was going to cause. Teddy is trying to pose the question in the worst possible scenario, and I am suggesting the same question in the best possible scenario. "The real question here is: when, if ever, is abortion justified?" To that question I think the exceptions to consider, at least, are life of the mother in danger (see Ectopic Pregnancy for example), rape and incest. In the end I am for this to be the choice of the woman. Anti-abortion laws are not going to work in the long run with simple medication available by mail.

By the way if we do end up causing thousands or millions of unwanted pregnancies to be carried to term, be prepared in 15-20 years for crime rates to skyrocket when these babies are old enough to impact society directly through their behavior. One of the unexpected consequences of greater access to cheap and effective birth control in the 1960's (the pill) was a precipitous drop in crime 15-20 years later. 

Edited by CA Steve
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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Is God morally justified in allowing people to die, including innocents? Is God justified in creating a life process wherein half or almost half of all fertilized eggs/embryos/fetuses die in the womb or are spontaneously aborted by the body?

Either God needs no justification or God is justified. Likewise the woman. The universe is God's, and the body of the woman is hers or at the very least is her stewardship given her by God.

In Mormon theology God's plan has 1/3 of the host of heaven never even getting the chance to live a mortal life. If abortion is murder, then millions of spirits got a free ticket to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom, something that would seem to be quite preferrable to how the 1/3 ended up.

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We all simply don't know how God judges those who abort babies.   The church simply doesn't take action against membership for rape (which should include sex trafficking),  incest and the health of the mother.   We all hope we'd be able to find the fortitude to raise a child conceived in impossible situations, and having the legal and moral CHOICE to do it is a big part of how that can happen.   In today's world every child will know how they were conceived and if such child born of rape, incest, sex trafficking the only way they can figure out themselves in our world is when a loving mother can tell them that she CHOOSE them because they are valuable and needed, no matter how they were conceived (and when they come to know the gospel understand that they would have chosen to come to earth under those conditions themselves even because they needed a body to become everything they want to be eternally, and it is not their genes but their spirit and how they control and learn to use that body that determines who and what they are).

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