Apostacy?

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello everyone, sorry I haven't acknowledged many of the replies to my post, but I've been on holiday. Firstly may I say that my post was very hastily and ill-formed. Using phrases like "damp squib" was a very poor choice of words and suggesting that your church has had minimal impact on the world stage was possibly confrontational at best and insulting at worst. For this I humbly apologise. Though I don't subscribe to your beliefs , it behoves me to treat you all and your faith with respect, and I feel that the tone of my post fell short of that. If I caused hurt or offence I ask for your forgiveness, and I will attempt to be less abrasive in the future.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I am not telling you what to believe, I am simply stating that it is not true. That you choose to believe otherwise is up to you.

Is this how we are doing discussions now?  Ok.  I'm sure this will be super productive, but here goes-

You are wrong.   

Edited July 17, 2022 by bluebell

[InCognitus]

17 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

On 6/29/2022 at 11:20 AM, bluebell said:

Yes, it is true.  That is our belief of what the great apostasy was.  You can disagree with it but you don't get to tell us what we believe.

I am not telling you what to believe, I am simply stating that it is not true. That you choose to believe otherwise is up to you.

I think part of the point of posting here is to have a discussion about why people believe what they believe, and to discuss whether it is true, or not.  Obviously we (you and I, and everyone else) believe what we believe because we believe it to be true. 

But from the Latter-day Saint perspective, the great apostasy is not a simple matter of "we have the truth and you don't".  It doesn't work that way.  You have a lot of truths in your beliefs, truths that we would acknowledge, truths that have been preserved from the time of Christ, and, so do many of the Protestant sects.  And whether or not there was an apostasy from the faith that was given at the time of Christ has more to do with things that were lost or changed through time.  The writings of the early Christians provide evidence of some differences in doctrines and teachings over time, and the changes are without question.  But I know you would argue that the changes in doctrine were done by the authority of the continuing church, but that's really a circular argument.  I would argue, which one would most resemble the church as given at the time of Christ and his apostles?

Edited July 18, 2022 by InCognitus

[RevTestament]

On 7/17/2022 at 4:42 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Hello everyone, sorry I haven't acknowledged many of the replies to my post, but I've been on holiday. Firstly may I say that my post was very hastily and ill-formed. Using phrases like "damp squib" was a very poor choice of words and suggesting that your church has had minimal impact on the world stage was possibly confrontational at best and insulting at worst. For this I humbly apologise. Though I don't subscribe to your beliefs , it behoves me to treat you all and your faith with respect, and I feel that the tone of my post fell short of that. If I caused hurt or offence I ask for your forgiveness, and I will attempt to be less abrasive in the future.

I just want to applaud you for that. It is big of you, and if followed will set you apart from the average Church critic. I can be rather harsh about my particular beliefs ... esp about the Roman Catholic Church, but on the whole I find Catholics to be good people, and generally easier to make friends with than some protestant denominations.... I am not sure why really. So go ahead and speak your mind about our beliefs, but if you are respectful about it, I think you can make friends here. I could stand to learn more about the other "orthodox" branches.

Edited July 19, 2022 by RevTestament

[Orthodox Christian]

20 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I just want to applaud you for that. It is big of you, and if followed will set you apart from the average Church critic. I can be rather harsh about my particular beliefs ... esp about the Roman Catholic Church, but on the whole I find Catholics to be good people, and generally easier to make friends with than some protestant denominations.... I am not sure why really. So go ahead and speak your mind about our beliefs, but if you are respectful about it, I think you can make friends here. I could stand to learn more about the other "orthodox" branches.

Thank you.

[pogi]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:53 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Not true. 

On 6/29/2022 at 2:46 PM, Orthodox Christian said:

It is not true, it may be your belief but that does not make it true.

On 7/17/2022 at 4:33 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

I am not telling you what to believe, I am simply stating that it is not true. That you choose to believe otherwise is up to you.

Care to fill in the gaps for us and explain your position?   "Not true" is not very convincing and doesn't engender healthy dialogue and understanding.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:04 AM, RevTestament said:

I just want to applaud you for that. It is big of you, and if followed will set you apart from the average Church critic. I can be rather harsh about my particular beliefs ... esp about the Roman Catholic Church, but on the whole I find Catholics to be good people, and generally easier to make friends with than some protestant denominations.... I am not sure why really. So go ahead and speak your mind about our beliefs, but if you are respectful about it, I think you can make friends here. I could stand to learn more about the other "orthodox" branches.

I appreciated you post, I suppose it made me feel better. But in fact my apology wasn't big of me, it was necessary. For quite a while after the post in question I was troubled, and even though I went on holiday, it still kept troubling me. So, I had to look at it and myself. In Orthodoxy we are encouraged to do this a lot, at the end of the day, before confession, before Holy Communion etc. So I looked at myself in relation to that post. I had to acknowledge that there was unkindness in it, unkindness that could cause negative emotions in others. I also had to look at my motive for posting it, and I had to acknowledge that my motive was probably to take a side swipe at beliefs I do not hold. Also, I saw pride and vanity in the mix, after all, this is your site, I did not have to be here, so who am I to be so opinionated? So it was necessary to apologise and to repent before God, because if I am to continue to walk with Him I have to be watchful and set a guard on my heart and my tongue. I cannot be right with God and wrong with my neighbour, it's as simple as that.

[Orthodox Christian]

Just now, Orthodox Christian said:

could stand to learn more about the other "orthodox" branches.

I believe an Orthodox Church has recently opened in Utah, the first one apparently, but I can't remember where exactly. Now bearing in mind that Utah is very large, it might not be easy to just pop along if you are interested, but I just thought I would let you know.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I believe an Orthodox Church has recently opened in Utah, the first one apparently, but I can't remember where exactly. Now bearing in mind that Utah is very large, it might not be easy to just pop along if you are interested, but I just thought I would let you know.

According to Google there are quite a few orthodox churches in Utah…perhaps first of a particular type?

added:  I found a recent article about the first in Utah county, but I saw several in Salt Lake County as well as south iirc.  
 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/07/23/lds-dominated-utah-county-gets/

[Anakin7]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

According to Google there are quite a few orthodox churches in Utah…perhaps first of a particular type?

added:  I found a recent article about the first in Utah county, but I saw several in Salt Lake County as well as south iirc.  
 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/07/23/lds-do

I Love going to those Orthodox Fall Festivals, eating Greek food, watching those older greek men dance with 2-3 woman at a time. Greek pasteries, yummmmm !.

[Saint Bonaventure]

As I read through this thread and some LDS materials about apostasy, I'm wondering if sometimes Latter-day Saints and Catholics are "talking past" one another.

One area in LDS teaching that confuses me is, "What is doctrine for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"

I ask because for Catholics, doctrine and discipline are very different concepts (as are dogma and devotion, a discussion for another time). 

From my perspective, doctrine is the Apostolic deposit of faith that was delivered once and for all (Jude 3) and is unchangeable truth. Doctrine can be clarified and developed more fully, but it doesn't change. The Virgin Birth of Jesus is an example of doctrine. 

In contrast, discipline is how we live truth, and disciplines can be different in different times, cultures, and places. A priest facing the people instead of the altar during Mass is an example of a disciplinary difference.

In short, for me disciplines are changeable regulations whereas doctrines are unchangeable truths.

So many things that I'm reading about LDS notions of apostasy have to do with disciplines and not doctrines. I'm still early in my studies in this area, but I'm starting to get a sense that something that might be a big deal for someone such as Elder James Talmage wouldn't be a big deal for a Catholic scholar or historian. There is immense potential for confusion, and when I don't have a good working notion of LDS doctrine, I think I'm likely to contribute to that confusion.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

As I read through this thread and some LDS materials about apostasy, I'm wondering if sometimes Latter-day Saints and Catholics are "talking past" one another.

One area in LDS teaching that confuses me is, "What is doctrine for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"

I ask because for Catholics, doctrine and discipline are very different concepts (as are dogma and devotion, a discussion for another time). 

From my perspective, doctrine is the Apostolic deposit of faith that was delivered once and for all (Jude 3) and is unchangeable truth. Doctrine can be clarified and developed more fully, but it doesn't change. The Virgin Birth of Jesus is an example of doctrine. 

In contrast, discipline is how we live truth, and disciplines can be different in different times, cultures, and places. A priest facing the people instead of the altar during Mass is an example of a disciplinary difference.

In short, for me disciplines are changeable regulations whereas doctrines are unchangeable truths.

So many things that I'm reading about LDS notions of apostasy have to do with disciplines and not doctrines. I'm still early in my studies in this area, but I'm starting to get a sense that something that might be a big deal for someone such as Elder James Talmage wouldn't be a big deal for a Catholic scholar or historian. There is immense potential for confusion, and when I don't have a good working notion of LDS doctrine, I think I'm likely to contribute to that confusion.

I think your understanding of doctrine and discipline is probably how most Latter-day Saints would interpret things as well.  We would probably use the word "policy" in place of "discipline" though.  Some of us might debate a tad on the idea of doctrine being unchanging truth, but these arguments are based more pm philosophical approaches to truth.  The idea of eternal, unchanging, and universal (aka absolute) truth is something that man cannot fully approach in mortality, therefore church doctrine is man's interpretation of absolute truth - which may not always be the same as absolute truth. 

While many may point to discipline/policy changes as evidence of apostasy, what our understanding of apostacy really hinges on is the doctrine of priesthood authority.   We believe it was lost from earth.  That, to us, is the definition of the great apostacy, so it is indeed based on doctrinal principles rather than just discipline/policy changes over time. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by pogi