Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Another SCOTUS decision on religious liberty.


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Here:

If a teacher can, under the First Amendment, express personal views on issues like gay rights and abortion, it would seem reasonable that a teacher can express personal reviews on religious belief as well.

From a blogger responding to Justice Sotomayor's dissent:

More here:

The decision was 6-3.

In an era when religious liberty appears to be on a downward spiral in some places, I am grateful that we have instances like this where such liberty is preserved.  From a 2005 New Era article:

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Be careful for the can of worms you wish for.

Link to comment
15 minutes ago, Teancum said:
Quote

When it comes to Free Speech, I'm okay with cans of worms.

Is this free speech or freedom of religion?  And from religion.

I think the former.  A football coach saying a prayer, in and of itself, does not create an "establishment" claim.  There would need to be "more."

Thanks,

-Smac

Link to comment
32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us.

Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray was going to magically compel students to join the Church.

On the bus home one evening, a student sat next to me and asked me questions about prayer. As part of the conversation, he asked me if I would pray for him, and I said I would. And I could do all this without having to worry that I might lose my job!

I think what you are talking about is a good thing, but I also think that kneeling on the 50 yard line right after the game is pretty "in your face".  While technically it might be the same as you are talking about,it's really not and I suspect this kind of thing is part of the reason why those things you talk about are not allowed.  

Link to comment
7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

If a teacher can, under the First Amendment, express personal views on issues like gay rights and abortion, it would seem reasonable that a teacher can express personal reviews on religious belief as well.

From a blogger responding to Justice Sotomayor's dissent:

More here:

The decision was 6-3.

In an era when religious liberty appears to be on a downward spiral in some places, I am grateful that we have instances like this where such liberty is preserved.  From a 2005 New Era article:

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Bravo for the Supremes!

Link to comment
22 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think what you are talking about is a good thing, but I also think that kneeling on the 50 yard line right after the game is pretty "in your face".

It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment.

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment.

::Shrugs:: we have a different history and demographic than you. One that entails often communities favoring a specific religion and where "religious diversity" is still largely within a christian framework followed distantly by "nones." Not just in numbers but in policies that often effected who could share their religious identity without repurcussions. Even now, in certain communities affiliation can still be a means to judge one's capacity to opine or be taken seriously or show religious expression. I experienced that first hand more than once. It's not too hard to see why that's led to a policy that keeps religion and state more separated. 

I would love for our community to be healthily religiously pluralistic. Some of my treasured memories include experiencing said pluralism and learning from others not of my faith. But we're not. And its easy for us to slide from religious liberty/pluralism to religious entitlement and subjugating our spiritual framework as a moral and community litmus test.

 

With luv,

BD

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not worried about being “in your face”. The people on the sidelines probably don’t care that much. It is not as if they are kneeling for racial equality or some other deviant cause that inflames crowds and viewers into hysterics. No, instead my main concern is the coercive effect it has on the team members. The coach has a lot of power over the kids. Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Would this be seen as a simple and sincere expression of faith or would Christian parents start complaining to school officials?

I would expect some Christian parents to complain but I would hope that the coach would still be allowed to pray to Mecca.

This case reminded me of the prayer that happened at the end of one of BYU's games with Boise - https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/11/11/21557164/the-story-behind-byu-and-boise-state-football-players-joining-hands-to-pray-after-their-game.  Interestingly, a group "Freedom From Religion Foundation" complained and the Boise State chaplain is no more - https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/12/17/22187229/byu-boise-state-atheists-football-prayer-chaplain-position-eliminated-protest-pray.  A quote from the second article:

Quote

In the Sports Illustrated article, Richard Garnett, a Notre Dame law professor and First Amendment expert, said courts infrequently rule on freedom from religion cases at the college level. Courts generally consider college students to be adults who can discern between what is state-sponsored prayer and what is not, he said.

Another thing from the second article is that in 2015, there were at least 25 college football programs with team chaplains.

Link to comment
36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him.

Unsurprisingly, I would be 100 per cent fine with this. And if one of the students joining the coach were my son, we would discuss at home what doing so meant to him. If his goal was just to be a part of prayer, it wouldn't fuss me in the least. Of all people, the Saints shouldn't be frightened of others' religious expressions. In fact, as our prophets have emphasised, we should be at the forefront of defending them.

Someone else posted this on another thread recently, but I find it important that, given the opportunity to record his testimony for the first time, Pres Woodruff began by emphasising the need to defend others in their religious liberties:

 

Quote

I bear my testimony that the Prophet Joseph Smith said, before a large assemblage in Illinois, that if he were the emperor of the world and had control over the whole human family, he would sustain every man, woman, and child in the enjoyment of their religion. Those are my sentiments today.

Last month, I was invited to be a keynote speaker at an iftar held on the final night of Ramadan. It was an honour. At the event, I reminded the imam that our stake presidency have offered our chapels for their use anytime they need them until the construction of their mosque is complete.

'Enlightened' Americans and other Westerners pretending they understand pluralism is a joke.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
Link to comment
43 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment.

My dad and I were playing baseball on the McClintock High School baseball field (it might have been Marcos de Niza, instead) on a Saturday when I was a teenager. Adult men were playing soccer on a field adjacent to the baseball field. Suddenly, all of the men playing dropped as one during the game and began praying, facing Mecca. It was actually a really cool thing to see. 

Link to comment

I had Courtney Leishman for a coaching class at BYU. He coached the women's basketball team, and had been an assistant coach under Frank Arnold (Danny Ainge, Greg Kite, Fred Roberts, etc.). He told us about a recruiting trip he made in Texas. He was stunned to see the teams meet at half-court and have a joint prayer before a game. "Aren't you afraid of the ACLU?" he asked his host. "We're Southern Baptists," the man replied. "We don't give a damn about the ACLU." :) 

Sometimes the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light (Luke 16:8). We Mormons haven't cornered the market on moral courage or wisdom. 

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, rongo said:

We Mormons haven't cornered the market on moral courage or wisdom. 

Nor have we cornered the market on heeding the words of our own living prophets, it seems to me after the past few days of perusing this forum ...

Link to comment
3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not worried about being “in your face”. The people on the sidelines probably don’t care that much. It is not as if they are kneeling for racial equality or some other deviant cause that inflames crowds and viewers into hysterics. No, instead my main concern is the coercive effect it has on the team members. The coach has a lot of power over the kids. Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Would this be seen as a simple and sincere expression of faith or would Christian parents start complaining to school officials?

Honestly, if the coach prayed towards Mecca and I could tell this was a Muslim prayer I would just assume it was that time of day.  With a Christian prayer I would assume, rightly or wrongly, that it was to be seen of men.  If the team members joined in the Muslim prayer I would think it was sweet.  But I understand how it might be different to others. 

Maybe Muslims have a "to be seen of men" thing I'm unaware of?  It's the motive that makes me think it is more "in your face".  I realize the article said he was doing it out of gratitude, but if that's the only time he publicly did it I would assume it wasn't only about gratitude.

Link to comment
On 6/27/2022 at 5:24 PM, Teancum said:

Be careful for the can of worms you wish for.

“Free speech” that’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Hopefully this ruling opens the door to getting rid of the many speech-stifling so-called “parental rights/don’t-say-gay” bills popping up around the country, as well.

It will be interesting to see how consistent this newly-conservative court will show itself to be.

Edited by Daniel2
Link to comment
12 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think the former.  A football coach saying a prayer, in and of itself, does not create an "establishment" claim.  There would need to be "more."

Thanks,

-Smac

Do his actions pull in students into the prayer?  Do they feel pressure to participate?  Will a LDS student or Islamic student or atheist student be ostracized if they don't participate?  Do you think the outcome would be different if this were a Muslim doing the prayer on the 50 yard line?

Link to comment
8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us.

Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray to a God with a different name was going to magically compel students to become Christians or join the Church.

On the bus home one evening, a student sat next to me and asked me questions about prayer. As part of the conversation, he asked me if I would pray for him, and I said I would. And I could do all this without having to worry that I might lose my job!

Because in the US we have a separation clause and while there is freedom of religion there should be freedom from religion as well.  Would you be quite fine if a EV Christian excluded LDS students from such prayers because they are not Christian? Would you be ok with a satanist doing whatever they do on the 50 yard line?

Link to comment
8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us.

Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray to a God with a different name was going to magically compel students to become Christians or join the Church.  [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

Actually, you didn't pray to a God "with a different name."  Allah is simply the Arabic word for "God."

Just sayin'! ;) :D 

Link to comment
7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment.

It is amazing to me that the pious complain that their religious freedom s under attack. I would say hardly at all in the US.  Religion is alive and well and as we are seeing religious people are making great strides in pushing their agenda on the public on people who do not hold religious beliefs. While those with no religious affiliation is growing in the US they are still a minority. And open atheist running for public office is likely to be hampered by their lack of public belief.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...