Popular Post smac97 Posted June 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 27, 2022 Here: Quote The Supreme Court ruled 6-3 Monday in favor of public High School football coach and former U.S. Marine Joseph Kennedy’s right to pray on the field after games. "Joseph Kennedy began working as a football coach at Bremerton High School in 2008 after nearly two decades of service in the Marine Corps. Like many other football players and coaches across the country, Mr. Kennedy made it a practice to give 'thanks through prayer on the playing field' at the conclusion of each game," the opinion explains. "In his prayers, Mr. Kennedy sought to express gratitude for 'what the players had accomplished and for the opportunity to be part of their lives through the game of football.' Mr. Kennedy offered his prayers after the players and coaches had shaken hands, by taking a knee at the 50-yard line and praying 'quiet[ly]' for 'approximately 30 seconds. Initially, Mr. Kennedy prayed on his own. See ibid. But over time, some players asked whether they could pray alongside him." “Joseph Kennedy lost his job as a high school football coach because he knelt at midfield after games to offer a quiet prayer of thanks. Mr. Kennedy prayed during a period when school employees were free to speak with a friend, call for a reservation at a restaurant, check email, or attend to other personal matters. He offered his prayers quietly while his students were otherwise occupied,” Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote in the majority opinion. “Still, the Bremerton School District disciplined him anyway. It did so because it thought anything less could lead a reasonable observer to conclude (mistakenly) that it endorsed Mr. Kennedy’s religious beliefs. That reasoning was misguided.” “Both the Free Exercise and Free Speech Clauses of the First Amendment protect expressions like Mr. Kennedy’s. Nor does a proper understanding of the Amendment’s Establishment Clause require the government to single out private religious speech for special disfavor. The Constitution and the best of our traditions counsel mutual respect and tolerance, not censorship and suppression, for religious and nonreligious views alike,” Gorsuch continued. If a teacher can, under the First Amendment, express personal views on issues like gay rights and abortion, it would seem reasonable that a teacher can express personal reviews on religious belief as well. From a blogger responding to Justice Sotomayor's dissent: Quote SOME PRETTY CHOOSY COERCION CONCERNS FROM SOTOMAYOR’S DISSENT IN FOOTBALL COACH PRAYER CASE… Quote Second, schools face a higher risk of unconstitutionally “coerc[ing] . . . support or participat[ion] in religion or its exercise” than other government entities. The State “exerts great authority and coercive power” in schools as a general matter “through mandatory attendance requirements.” Moreover, the State exercises that great authority over children, who are uniquely susceptible to “subtle coercive pressure.” Lee, 505 U. S., at 588; cf. Town of Greece v. Galloway, 572 U. S. 565, 590 (2014) (plurality opinion) (“[M]ature adults,” unlike children, may not be “‘readily susceptible to religious indoctrination or peer pressure’”). Children are particularly vulnerable to coercion because of their “emulation of teachers as role models” and “susceptibility to peer pressure.” Accordingly, this Court has emphasized that “the State may not, consistent with the Establishment Clause, place primary and secondary school children” in the dilemma of choosing between “participating, with all that implies, or protesting” a religious exercise in a public school.” (PDF page 55; most cites removed for readability.) Great. Can we apply this to the endless, relentless pressure on K-12 public school kids to adopt and parrot state-established views on issues race, sex, LGBTQ issues, etc.? Oh, wait, those views aren’t “religious,” so publicly funded propaganda on that is OK, but a football coach offering optional prayers on the field is not. Got it. Does anyone actually find this reasoning convincing, as opposed to convenient? More here: Quote When the court heard oral arguments in the case, the hearing took twice the allotted amount of time. ESPN reported that “the justices seemed divided along ideological lines,” with Justice Sonia Sotomayor even suggesting that Kennedy’s prayers were just for show. However, Amy Howe of SCOTUSblog pointed out that “a majority of the Supreme Court appeared sympathetic” to the coach. ... First Liberty Institute, which represented Kennedy, issued a statement, which reads in part: “This is a tremendous victory for Coach Kennedy and religious liberty for all Americans,” said Kelly Shackelford, President, CEO, and Chief Counsel for First Liberty. “Our Constitution protects the right of every American to engage in private religious expression, including praying in public, without fear of getting fired. We are grateful that the Supreme Court recognized what the Constitution and law have always said – Americans are free to live out their faith in public.” Paul Clement, former U.S. Solicitor General and First Liberty network attorney who argued Kennedy’s case before the Justices, said, “After seven long years, Coach Kennedy can finally return to the place he belongs – coaching football and quietly praying by himself after the game. This is a great victory for Coach Kennedy and the First Amendment.” The decision was 6-3. In an era when religious liberty appears to be on a downward spiral in some places, I am grateful that we have instances like this where such liberty is preserved. From a 2005 New Era article: Quote The Right Time The Restoration of the true Church of Jesus Christ could occur only after Heavenly Father put in place all that would make it possible for His Church to blossom in a prepared land. The Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation, the establishment of the United States as a free country, and the preparation of a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith were all part of the Lord’s plan to bring the fulness of His gospel back to the earth so His children could be saved. Yep. Thanks, -Smac 6 Link to comment
Teancum Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Here: If a teacher can, under the First Amendment, express personal views on issues like gay rights and abortion, it would seem reasonable that a teacher can express personal reviews on religious belief as well. From a blogger responding to Justice Sotomayor's dissent: More here: The decision was 6-3. In an era when religious liberty appears to be on a downward spiral in some places, I am grateful that we have instances like this where such liberty is preserved. From a 2005 New Era article: Yep. Thanks, -Smac Be careful for the can of worms you wish for. 1 Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 27, 2022 Author Share Posted June 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Teancum said: Be careful for the can of worms you wish for. When it comes to Free Speech, I'm okay with cans of worms. Thanks, -Smac 4 Link to comment
Teancum Posted June 27, 2022 Share Posted June 27, 2022 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: When it comes to Free Speech, I'm okay with cans of worms. Thanks, -Smac Is this free speech or freedom of religion? And from religion. Link to comment
smac97 Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 15 minutes ago, Teancum said: Quote When it comes to Free Speech, I'm okay with cans of worms. Is this free speech or freedom of religion? And from religion. I think the former. A football coach saying a prayer, in and of itself, does not create an "establishment" claim. There would need to be "more." Thanks, -Smac 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2022 As I've mentioned before, when I taught for two years in America, I was specifically instructed that I couldn't even mention my own religious affiliation or practice in front of students -- let alone actually practise any of it! -- lest a student think that I was somehow endorsing/forcing religion on her or him. I couldn't even honestly answer a question as innocuous as 'Mr Tuhan, do you go to church?' At the same time, my coworkers could openly discuss in front of students what pub they got wasted at over the weekend. So yeah, this is a good thing. 8 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 The photograph in Sotomayer’s dissent does make me doubt that this prayer was “private”. Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: The photograph in Sotomayer’s dissent does make me doubt that this prayer was “private”. And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us. Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray to a God with a different name was going to magically compel students to become Christians or join the Church. On the bus home one evening, a student sat next to me and asked me questions about prayer. As part of the conversation, he asked me if I would pray for him, and I said I would. And I could do all this without having to worry that I might lose my job! Edited June 28, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 8 Link to comment
Rain Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us. Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray was going to magically compel students to join the Church. On the bus home one evening, a student sat next to me and asked me questions about prayer. As part of the conversation, he asked me if I would pray for him, and I said I would. And I could do all this without having to worry that I might lose my job! I think what you are talking about is a good thing, but I also think that kneeling on the 50 yard line right after the game is pretty "in your face". While technically it might be the same as you are talking about,it's really not and I suspect this kind of thing is part of the reason why those things you talk about are not allowed. 3 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 7 hours ago, smac97 said: Here: If a teacher can, under the First Amendment, express personal views on issues like gay rights and abortion, it would seem reasonable that a teacher can express personal reviews on religious belief as well. From a blogger responding to Justice Sotomayor's dissent: More here: The decision was 6-3. In an era when religious liberty appears to be on a downward spiral in some places, I am grateful that we have instances like this where such liberty is preserved. From a 2005 New Era article: Yep. Thanks, -Smac Bravo for the Supremes! Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 22 minutes ago, Rain said: I think what you are talking about is a good thing, but I also think that kneeling on the 50 yard line right after the game is pretty "in your face". It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post The Nehor Posted June 28, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 28, 2022 36 minutes ago, Rain said: I think what you are talking about is a good thing, but I also think that kneeling on the 50 yard line right after the game is pretty "in your face". While technically it might be the same as you are talking about,it's really not and I suspect this kind of thing is part of the reason why those things you talk about are not allowed. I am not worried about being “in your face”. The people on the sidelines probably don’t care that much. It is not as if they are kneeling for racial equality or some other deviant cause that inflames crowds and viewers into hysterics. No, instead my main concern is the coercive effect it has on the team members. The coach has a lot of power over the kids. Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Would this be seen as a simple and sincere expression of faith or would Christian parents start complaining to school officials? 6 Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment. ::Shrugs:: we have a different history and demographic than you. One that entails often communities favoring a specific religion and where "religious diversity" is still largely within a christian framework followed distantly by "nones." Not just in numbers but in policies that often effected who could share their religious identity without repurcussions. Even now, in certain communities affiliation can still be a means to judge one's capacity to opine or be taken seriously or show religious expression. I experienced that first hand more than once. It's not too hard to see why that's led to a policy that keeps religion and state more separated. I would love for our community to be healthily religiously pluralistic. Some of my treasured memories include experiencing said pluralism and learning from others not of my faith. But we're not. And its easy for us to slide from religious liberty/pluralism to religious entitlement and subjugating our spiritual framework as a moral and community litmus test. With luv, BD 1 Link to comment
webbles Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 13 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I am not worried about being “in your face”. The people on the sidelines probably don’t care that much. It is not as if they are kneeling for racial equality or some other deviant cause that inflames crowds and viewers into hysterics. No, instead my main concern is the coercive effect it has on the team members. The coach has a lot of power over the kids. Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Would this be seen as a simple and sincere expression of faith or would Christian parents start complaining to school officials? I would expect some Christian parents to complain but I would hope that the coach would still be allowed to pray to Mecca. This case reminded me of the prayer that happened at the end of one of BYU's games with Boise - https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/11/11/21557164/the-story-behind-byu-and-boise-state-football-players-joining-hands-to-pray-after-their-game. Interestingly, a group "Freedom From Religion Foundation" complained and the Boise State chaplain is no more - https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/12/17/22187229/byu-boise-state-atheists-football-prayer-chaplain-position-eliminated-protest-pray. A quote from the second article: Quote In the Sports Illustrated article, Richard Garnett, a Notre Dame law professor and First Amendment expert, said courts infrequently rule on freedom from religion cases at the college level. Courts generally consider college students to be adults who can discern between what is state-sponsored prayer and what is not, he said. Another thing from the second article is that in 2015, there were at least 25 college football programs with team chaplains. 3 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Unsurprisingly, I would be 100 per cent fine with this. And if one of the students joining the coach were my son, we would discuss at home what doing so meant to him. If his goal was just to be a part of prayer, it wouldn't fuss me in the least. Of all people, the Saints shouldn't be frightened of others' religious expressions. In fact, as our prophets have emphasised, we should be at the forefront of defending them. Someone else posted this on another thread recently, but I find it important that, given the opportunity to record his testimony for the first time, Pres Woodruff began by emphasising the need to defend others in their religious liberties: Quote I bear my testimony that the Prophet Joseph Smith said, before a large assemblage in Illinois, that if he were the emperor of the world and had control over the whole human family, he would sustain every man, woman, and child in the enjoyment of their religion. Those are my sentiments today. Last month, I was invited to be a keynote speaker at an iftar held on the final night of Ramadan. It was an honour. At the event, I reminded the imam that our stake presidency have offered our chapels for their use anytime they need them until the construction of their mosque is complete. 'Enlightened' Americans and other Westerners pretending they understand pluralism is a joke. Edited June 28, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan 4 Link to comment
rongo Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 43 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment. My dad and I were playing baseball on the McClintock High School baseball field (it might have been Marcos de Niza, instead) on a Saturday when I was a teenager. Adult men were playing soccer on a field adjacent to the baseball field. Suddenly, all of the men playing dropped as one during the game and began praying, facing Mecca. It was actually a really cool thing to see. 2 Link to comment
rongo Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 I had Courtney Leishman for a coaching class at BYU. He coached the women's basketball team, and had been an assistant coach under Frank Arnold (Danny Ainge, Greg Kite, Fred Roberts, etc.). He told us about a recruiting trip he made in Texas. He was stunned to see the teams meet at half-court and have a joint prayer before a game. "Aren't you afraid of the ACLU?" he asked his host. "We're Southern Baptists," the man replied. "We don't give a damn about the ACLU." Sometimes the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light (Luke 16:8). We Mormons haven't cornered the market on moral courage or wisdom. 3 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, rongo said: We Mormons haven't cornered the market on moral courage or wisdom. Nor have we cornered the market on heeding the words of our own living prophets, it seems to me after the past few days of perusing this forum ... Link to comment
Rain Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: I am not worried about being “in your face”. The people on the sidelines probably don’t care that much. It is not as if they are kneeling for racial equality or some other deviant cause that inflames crowds and viewers into hysterics. No, instead my main concern is the coercive effect it has on the team members. The coach has a lot of power over the kids. Imagine if instead the coach prayed to Mecca and three quarters of the team joined him. Would this be seen as a simple and sincere expression of faith or would Christian parents start complaining to school officials? Honestly, if the coach prayed towards Mecca and I could tell this was a Muslim prayer I would just assume it was that time of day. With a Christian prayer I would assume, rightly or wrongly, that it was to be seen of men. If the team members joined in the Muslim prayer I would think it was sweet. But I understand how it might be different to others. Maybe Muslims have a "to be seen of men" thing I'm unaware of? It's the motive that makes me think it is more "in your face". I realize the article said he was doing it out of gratitude, but if that's the only time he publicly did it I would assume it wasn't only about gratitude. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 This is another one of those cases the Church of Satan is likely going to try to replicate. 1 Link to comment
Daniel2 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) On 6/27/2022 at 5:24 PM, Teancum said: Be careful for the can of worms you wish for. “Free speech” that’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Hopefully this ruling opens the door to getting rid of the many speech-stifling so-called “parental rights/don’t-say-gay” bills popping up around the country, as well. It will be interesting to see how consistent this newly-conservative court will show itself to be. Edited June 29, 2022 by Daniel2 3 Link to comment
Teancum Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 12 hours ago, smac97 said: I think the former. A football coach saying a prayer, in and of itself, does not create an "establishment" claim. There would need to be "more." Thanks, -Smac Do his actions pull in students into the prayer? Do they feel pressure to participate? Will a LDS student or Islamic student or atheist student be ostracized if they don't participate? Do you think the outcome would be different if this were a Muslim doing the prayer on the 50 yard line? 1 Link to comment
Teancum Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us. Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray to a God with a different name was going to magically compel students to become Christians or join the Church. On the bus home one evening, a student sat next to me and asked me questions about prayer. As part of the conversation, he asked me if I would pray for him, and I said I would. And I could do all this without having to worry that I might lose my job! Because in the US we have a separation clause and while there is freedom of religion there should be freedom from religion as well. Would you be quite fine if a EV Christian excluded LDS students from such prayers because they are not Christian? Would you be ok with a satanist doing whatever they do on the 50 yard line? 1 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: And why should it be? I have taught in schools where all instruction paused mid-morning and again mid-afternoon so that interested staff and students could voluntarily join each other in the musalla for prayer. This caused literally zero problems for the rest of us. Of course, living in a genuinely pluralistic society also meant that I was free to tell students my religious affiliation when they asked, as well as what my beliefs and practices as a Latter-day Saint are. I was also welcome to pray in the musalla, which I did on many occasions, and literally no one worried that seeing me pray to a God with a different name was going to magically compel students to become Christians or join the Church. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.] Actually, you didn't pray to a God "with a different name." Allah is simply the Arabic word for "God." Just sayin'! Link to comment
Teancum Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: It's only 'in your face' in societies where 'progressive' forces have pushed sincere expressions of faith into the same realm as public defecation. In most non-Western societies, this whole discussion just creates perplexment. It is amazing to me that the pious complain that their religious freedom s under attack. I would say hardly at all in the US. Religion is alive and well and as we are seeing religious people are making great strides in pushing their agenda on the public on people who do not hold religious beliefs. While those with no religious affiliation is growing in the US they are still a minority. And open atheist running for public office is likely to be hampered by their lack of public belief. Link to comment
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