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Work for the dead - miscarriages and aborted babies


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Does the church do temple work for aborted children or miscarriages?

Say My mother has a miscarriage and the. Later has an abortion. I then join the church. Would I then do temple work for the miscarried child and the aborted child?

Edited by Fether
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no and no

 

you do temple work for babies that lived and were recorded. My Grandma had a stillbirth baby but we don't have to do the work for them but we did for another baby they had that lived 12 days. 

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2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

no and no

 

you do temple work for babies that lived and were recorded. My Grandma had a stillbirth baby but we don't have to do the work for them but we did for another baby they had that lived 12 days. 

If we do temple ordinances for born children, why not unborn children?

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Handbook, 38.7.3

"Temple ordinances are not needed or performed for children who die before birth. This does not deny the possibility that these children may be part of the family in the eternities. Parents are encouraged to trust the Lord and seek His comfort."

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3 minutes ago, rongo said:

Handbook, 38.7.3

"Temple ordinances are not needed or performed for children who die before birth. This does not deny the possibility that these children may be part of the family in the eternities. Parents are encouraged to trust the Lord and seek His comfort."

I raise your handbook quote with this handbook quote:

“No baptism or endowment is performed for a child who died before the age of eight. Only sealings to parents are performed for such children. If the child was sealed to parents while he or she was living or if the child was born in the covenant, no vicarious ordinances are performed.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/members-guide-to-temple-and-family-history-work/chapter-7-providing-temple-ordinances?lang=eng

 

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6 minutes ago, Fether said:

If we do temple ordinances for born children, why not unborn children?

As to the why, I think it has to do with the symbolism of birth involving water, blood, and spirit. Not having gone through birth in entering into mortality, they are a) either heirs of the celestial kingdom already, or b) will enter mortality at another time. 

Moses 6:59-60:

"Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten . . . For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified."

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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

I raise your handbook quote with this handbook quote:

“No baptism or endowment is performed for a child who died before the age of eight. Only sealings to parents are performed for such children. If the child was sealed to parents while he or she was living or if the child was born in the covenant, no vicarious ordinances are performed.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/members-guide-to-temple-and-family-history-work/chapter-7-providing-temple-ordinances?lang=eng

Oh, your question is why we don't seal them, as we do children who died before age 8.

Again, I think it's because these children reached their 2nd estate (they made it to mortality). Stillbirths, miscarriages, etc. haven't yet --- or, if they did (if that counts as "my time on earth"), they will be sealed to families later (Millennium). 

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3 minutes ago, rongo said:

As to the why, I think it has to do with the symbolism of birth involving water, blood, and spirit. Not having gone through birth in entering into mortality, they are a) either heirs of the celestial kingdom already, or b) will enter mortality at another time. 

Moses 6:59-60:

"Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten . . . For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified."

But sealing to parents still happen with children who die younger than 8 and were born outside the covenant.

In my example. We would not seal the aborted child or the miscarried one. But we would seal any other children that were born. 
 

why wouldn’t we seal the aborted or miscarried children?

Edited by Fether
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4 minutes ago, Fether said:

But sealing to parents still happen with children who die younger than 8 and were born outside the covenant.

In my example. We would not seal the aborted child or the miscarried one. But we would seal any other children that were born. 
 

why wouldn’t we seal the aborted or miscarried children?

They didn't cross the finish line of birth. That is a milepost that triggers the need for sealing. 

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

But dealings to parents still happen with children who die younger than 8 and were born outside the covenant.

In my example. We would not seal the aborted child or the miscarried one. But we would seal any other children that were born. 
 

why wouldn’t we seal the aborted or miscarried children?

sometimes, most? people don't even know they had a miscarriage and aborted children, take it up with SLC I guess

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1 minute ago, Duncan said:

sometimes, most? people don't even know they had a miscarriage and aborted children, take it up with SLC I guess

I’m mostly just asking about this point because it seem to fly in the face on the church’s pro-life stance. If we believe life starts at conception and we are against abortions, why do we also not allow sealings to happen for miscarriages and aborted children?

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3 minutes ago, rongo said:

They didn't cross the finish line of birth. That is a milepost that triggers the need for sealing. 

So there is some doctrine somewhere that says “if a child is born in the covenant or dies before birth, they are automatically sealed to their parents”?

please do share

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7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Nowhere has the Church said that it opposes abortion because it defines conception as when the spirit enters the body. The Church can and does oppose abortion on moral grounds for other reasons --- even if the spirit hypothetically hasn't entered the body yet. 

Fair point!

 

thanks! I am pro-life. I just didn’t understand this point. This makes it a little more clear.

Had the church ever stated why they are against abortion beyond the “sanctity of life”

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40 minutes ago, rongo said:

Again, I think it's because these children reached their 2nd estate (they made it to mortality). Stillbirths, miscarriages, etc. haven't yet --- or, if they did (if that counts as "my time on earth"), they will be sealed to families later (Millennium). 

Beyond saying that sealings aren't done, the Church also says sealings aren't needed.

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This, for personal reasons, is a very interesting question. I don't claim to understand any of the whys or theology or philosophy or whatever might go into the question. Our first child was stillborn at 39 weeks (and very much active in the days before delivery). Contrast that with a hypothetical (but not really, because such things happen) child born preterm at 24 weeks, but, because of complications due to preterm delivery, the child dies in a few days/weeks. Because the preterm child managed to breathe and have a heartbeat and so on for a time outside the womb, that child, though gestationally younger than mine, has a different status.

Again, I don't claim to understand the theology (if any) underpinning this difference in status. But I do find it very interesting, both in itself, and some of the implications I see for the abortion debate raging elsewhere.

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24 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

In previous iterations of the policy related to miscarriage and stillborn children, it was stated that no revelation has been received regarding when the spirit enters the body, and so the policy seems to be defaulting to treating birth as the threshold, at least for administrative purposes. However, previous Church leaders have expressed the opinion that the spirit enters the body at the "quickening," which has long been understood to be the moment at which the mother perceives the fetus to be moving. Prior to the late 19th century in America, abortions were legal in America up to the time of the "quickening." When white Americans like Horatio Storer grew concerned that immigrants had higher birth rates and that abortions were commonly being sought by white married Protestant women, they began to push to make elective abortion illegal at all stages of pregnancy so that white Americans wouldn't become outnumbered. A good discussion of that campaign is here:

https://sociology.northwestern.edu/documents/faculty-docs/faculty-research-article/Beisel-AbortionRaceandGender.pdf

The more things change……….

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  • 1 month later...

Records require information including birth/death date and usually the accompanying documentation (a birth certificate or record and death certificate or record). Any children born to parents who are already sealed are BIC. Sealing of non-live births is not currently included in policy: https://www.familysearch.org/en/help/helpcenter/article/temple-work-for-stillborn-babies - you need to login to family search with a church account to see the specific linked page. 
"Temple ordinances are not performed for a stillborn child. This does not deny the possibility that the child may be part of the family in the eternities. Parents may record the child’s name in Family Tree and indicate that the child was stillborn in the section titled Other Information. A ward temple and family history consultant may assist."

 

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This Ensign article from 1987 has some helpful discussion and quotes.  No doctrine of course other than that we don’t know when the spirit enters the body.

 

Can we put the names of our miscarried or stillborn children on our family group records?
 
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/09/i-have-a-question/can-we-put-the-names-of-our-miscarried-or-stillborn-children-on-our-family-group-records?lang=eng

 

FWIW, I support abortion rights, including for contraception purposes, during the first trimester because I don’t believe the spirit enters until later. Due respect should be given to the spirit-less body, just as should be done to a body once a spirit departs, but I don’t view the ending of the body at that stage as taking a life. My support of abortion rights is based on my moral religious beliefs. 
 

This view conflicts with the church’s official position on abortion, but is in harmony with the church’s lack of opposition to stem cell research (remember that all five LDS senators supported government funded stem cell research in 2001, thereby getting the measure passed) as well as the church’s approval of IUD contraception which terminates a fetus post- fertilization. The notion from other faiths that life begins at conception conflicts with the many temple recommend holding members (including my wife) who use IUDs. Thankfully, our doctrine is clear on when life begins. It never did. We are co-eternal with God. 

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