Calm Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 24 minutes ago, The Nehor said: My money is on gay marriage and/or sodomy and then contraception. I think too many of Americans of even Conservative party lines use contraception to see that as in danger. Perhaps you don’t mean generally speaking, but something specific associated with contraception?
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Calm said: I think too many of Americans of even Conservative party lines use contraception to see that as in danger. Perhaps you don’t mean generally speaking, but something specific associated with contraception? No, I am concerned about it generally. It would be unpopular but this Court doesn’t seem concerned with that and there are people who are going to push cases to test these laws. It will probably again be along the lines that states have the right to ban contraception and the wealthy will still get it as needed.
Tweed1944 Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 Why acccept the Biblical texts as it seems to condone some strange practices Numbers 31:17-18 New International Vers 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Stormin' Mormon Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) 31 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It would be unpopular but ... In order for Griswold to be in the crosshairs of the Supreme Court, you would need all of the following: 1. A state leguslature willing to pass a law banning contraceptives 2. A governor willing to sign such a law 3. A state official willing to enforce the law 4. Lower court judges willing to uphold that enforcement OR state officials willing to expend the resources on a costly appeal. That very unpoularity will likely keep it from ever becoming a SCOTUS issue again. Edited June 24, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon 1
smac97 Posted June 24, 2022 Author Posted June 24, 2022 37 minutes ago, Calm said: What about laws that punish those helping women, including apparently those who cross state lines? (Serious question, I have read several articles and much of the law itself). https://legiscan.com/TX/text/SB8/id/2352120 Again from my previous post (quoting Prof. Reynolds) : "States won’t be able to ban interstate travel for the purpose of getting an abortion because interstate travel is a separate constitutional right." I question whether a state can A) punish someone for exercising a constitutional right (interstate travel), or B) punish someone helping/facilitating some other person's exercise of that right. From your link: Quote Sec. 171.208. CIVIL LIABILITY FOR VIOLATION OR AIDING OR ABETTING VIOLATION. (a) Any person, other than an officer or employee of a state or local governmental entity in this state, may bring a civil action against any person who: (1) performs or induces an abortion in violation of this chapter; (2) knowingly engages in conduct that aids or abets the performance or inducement of an abortion, including paying for or reimbursing the costs of an abortion through insurance or otherwise, if the abortion is performed or induced in violation of this chapter, regardless of whether the person knew or should have known that the abortion would be performed or induced in violation of this chapter; or (3) intends to engage in the conduct described by Subdivision (1) or (2). An abortion performed in Oklahoma is not an act that violates Texas law, since Texas has no authority to regulate activities in Oklahoma. I think this provision can only pertain to abortions performed in Texas. I'm open to correction, though. Here's the next part: Quote (b) If a claimant prevails in an action brought under this section, the court shall award: (1) injunctive relief sufficient to prevent the defendant from violating this chapter or engaging in acts that aid or abet violations of this chapter; (2) statutory damages in an amount of not less than $10,000 for each abortion that the defendant performed or induced in violation of this chapter, and for each abortion performed or induced in violation of this chapter that the defendant aided or abetted; and (3) costs and attorney's fees. Again, this statute only pertains to "acts that aid or abet violations of this chapter." "This chapter" is a reference to the Texas statute, and that statute only applies to abortions, or helping someone get an abortion, that would be subject to the laws of Texas. That is, the abortion would need to take place in Texas. As I read this, an abortion in Oklahoma cannot, under any circumstance, constitute a violation of the foregoing Texas statute. More: Quote (g) This section may not be construed to impose liability on any speech or conduct protected by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, as made applicable to the states through the United States Supreme Court's interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution, or by Section 8, Article I, Texas Constitution. I think this is intended to operate as a constraint on the reach of the Texas statute. Whether it actually succeeds at doing so... Thanks, -Smac 1
The Nehor Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 23 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said: In order for Griswold to be in the crosshairs of the Supreme Court, you would need all of the following: 1. A state leguslature willing to pass a law banning contraceptives 2. A governor willing to sign such a law 3. A state official willing to enforce the law 4. Lower court judges willing to uphold that enforcement OR state officials willing to expend the resources on a costly appeal. That very unpoularity will likely keep it from ever becoming a SCOTUS issue again. No, you would just need one law that banned one specific type of contraceptive. That is easy. Then it just has to make it to SCOTUS and they can overturn the whole thing.
LoudmouthMormon Posted June 24, 2022 Posted June 24, 2022 More female Supreme Court Justices were involved in overturning Roe vs. Wade, than were involved in creating it. 1
Chum Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 51 minutes ago, Tweed1944 said: Why acccept the Biblical texts as it seems to condone some strange practices New International Vers 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Psalms seems to resolve the abortion conundrum definitively. Wait until they're born. Rock them to permanent sleep. Enjoy that happiness. Quote Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) Don’t worry everyone upset at this turn of events. The Democrats are bound to push back. Uhhmmmm……wha………what the……… Okay, never mind, we’re doomed. Edited June 25, 2022 by The Nehor 1
JLHPROF Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Chum said: Psalms seems to resolve the abortion conundrum definitively. Wait until they're born. Rock them to permanent sleep. Enjoy that happiness. Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven Preventing them from being born... D&C 17:19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house. 20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them. 21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation. 22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea. Edited June 25, 2022 by JLHPROF 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: When the legitimacy and independence of the courts falls the nation often falls afterwards. It is a pretty well documented phenomenon. We deserve this. This started way before the current decisions. 1
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: This started way before the current decisions. I know, but this is going to nosedive those numbers even further. West coast states are already talking about some kind of deal to protect people seeing abortions. Possibly soon to be reclassified as refugees. Here comes balkanization. Maybe we can still stop it. I doubt it.
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I know, but this is going to nosedive those numbers even further. West coast states are already talking about some kind of deal to protect people seeing abortions. Possibly soon to be reclassified as refugees. Here comes balkanization. Maybe we can still stop it. I doubt it. Unfortunately, I have to agree, but there is plenty of blame to share on both sides.
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Unfortunately, I have to agree, but there is plenty of blame to share on both sides. Yeah, I would split it roughly 85%/15% 1
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 A question for those who are lamenting the decision… Does the person being created in the womb have any rights or protections? 2
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Yeah, I would split it roughly 85%/15% Not at all. Both sides have politicized the courts. For example, Roe v Wade, a political decision, was fundamental in creating the schisms we now face. Edited June 25, 2022 by Bernard Gui 1
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Just now, Bernard Gui said: A question for those who are lamenting the decision… Does the person being created in the womb have any rights or protections? I want abortion ended except for rare exceptions but I don’t believe compulsion is the way to achieve it. I think creating a culture that values life would be a better method. This would also have to include parenthood not being an economic death sentence. We don’t value life though so it is a silly idealistic dream. In this specific instance I think this is fraying an already threadbare social contract. I honestly expect to read about burned buildings tonight and tomorrow and will be surprised if it doesn’t happen. If there were a time to upend the judicial board and create a lot of justified fear about other decisions being eroded or removed it is not now. This could go south real fast and there are any number of reasons someone like me could end up in a reeducation camp for deviancy or whatever. I don’t expect to care much for July 4th this year. Seems more like a farcical joke to celebrate freedom when the people chanting “freedom” want to govern like some kind of theocratic fascist HOA board and the other is so weak and ineffectual they can’t even score real wins when they are mostly in power. Neither can fix anything or restore legitimacy and when legitimacy dies power is all that matters and then the authoritarians take over and I doubt it matters much what ideology the authoritarians espouse. 1
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Not at all. Both sides have politicized the courts. For example, Roe v Wade, a political decision, was fundamental in creating the schisms we now face. Roe v Wade was a 7-2 Supreme Court Decision and the two dissenters were aligned more with the Democrats.
teddyaware Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I know, but this is going to nosedive those numbers even further. West coast states are already talking about some kind of deal to protect people seeing abortions. Possibly soon to be reclassified as refugees. Here comes balkanization. Maybe we can still stop it. I doubt it. The ultimate manifestation of balkanization in America will take place when Zion is established and the righteous followers of Christ are physically separated from the rebellious in preparation for the day when God pours out his judgements of destruction upon the wicked to their utter overthrow. As Doctrine and Covenants 45 powerfully testifies, balkanization isn’t always a bad thing. Or do you believe the New Jerusalem and Zion is a bad idea?. 66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. 68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. 69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another. 70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand. 71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy. (Doctrine and Covenants 45) -1
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: I want abortion ended except for rare exceptions but I don’t believe compulsion is the way to achieve it. I think creating a culture that values life would be a better method. This would also have to include parenthood not being an economic death sentence. We don’t value life though so it is a silly idealistic dream. In this specific instance I think this is fraying an already threadbare social contract. I honestly expect to read about burned buildings tonight and tomorrow and will be surprised if it doesn’t happen. If there were a time to upend the judicial board and create a lot of justified fear about other decisions being eroded or removed it is not now. This could go south real fast and there are any number of reasons someone like me could end up in a reeducation camp for deviancy or whatever. I don’t expect to care much for July 4th this year. Seems more like a farcical joke to celebrate freedom when the people chanting “freedom” want to govern like some kind of theocratic fascist HOA board and the other is so weak and ineffectual they can’t even score real wins when they are mostly in power. Neither can fix anything or restore legitimacy and when legitimacy dies power is all that matters and then the authoritarians take over and I doubt it matters much what ideology the authoritarians espouse. Perhaps, but does the object in the womb have any rights or protections? Elder Maxwell predicted this in 1978… Quote Your discipleship may see the time come when religious convictions are heavily discounted. M. J. Sobran also observed, “A religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it” (Human Life Review, Summer 1978, p. 58). This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain of people’s opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions. Resistance to abortion will soon be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened.
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Roe v Wade was a 7-2 Supreme Court Decision and the two dissenters were aligned more with the Democrats. That does not in itself make it a worthy or a non-political decision. The politics of 1973 are far removed from those of today. Ever since then it has been the political touchstone sine qua non for every SC nomination.
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, teddyaware said: The ultimate manifestation of balkanization in America will take place when Zion is established and the righteous followers of Christ are physically separated from the rebellious in preparation for the day when God pours out his judgements of destruction upon the wicked to their utter overthrow. As Doctrine and Covenants 45 powerfully testifies, balkanization isn’t always a bad thing. Or do you believe the New Jerusalem and Zion is a bad idea?. 66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. 68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. 69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another. 70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand. 71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy. (Doctrine and Covenants 45) I think the more apt scriptural comparison is in the Book of Mormon where the Gadiantons eliminated the Nephite national government and everything devolved into tribes who only had the shared conviction that the idiots who destroyed the government should die. This didn’t happen right before the ‘First Coming’ and doubtless led to large-scale misery and suffering. If this does presage the end of days I expect it will be worse because everything about it is said to be worse so that will be fun. Also I don’t believe God has called on us to cause, aid, or cheer the deterioration of everything that leads to the need for a New Jerusalem. I expect those experiencing glee at this will be burned at His Coming. Then again I will probably burn too as an abomination or curse God and die somewhere along the way. Edited June 25, 2022 by The Nehor 2
The Nehor Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 Just now, Bernard Gui said: That does not in itself make it a worthy or a non-political decision. The politics of 1973 are far removed from those of today. Ever since then it has been the political touchstone sine qua non for every SC nomination. Due to one group of people positively and obsessively driven on the one point who barely cared before. Suddenly it was a long-running fundraising scam. They took the money and really didn’t do anything with it. It was a scam. Then some people showed up that burned the whole thing down by actually doing something about it. The fundraising tool is now largely gone and they may find it out that wanting to change it was much more beneficial than actually changing it. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: but does the object in the womb have any rights or protections Sure, but just like Latter-day Saint prophets we think it has less rights than the woman being forced to carry it. Can you imagine a (modern) prophet allowing a mother to kill a two year child because it’s a product of rape? And yet they allow for a mother to kill a similarly situated fetus, because the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the unborn child. Edited June 25, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding
Bernard Gui Posted June 25, 2022 Posted June 25, 2022 32 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Due to one group of people positively and obsessively driven on the one point who barely cared before. Suddenly it was a long-running fundraising scam. They took the money and really didn’t do anything with it. It was a scam. Then some people showed up that burned the whole thing down by actually doing something about it. The fundraising tool is now largely gone and they may find it out that wanting to change it was much more beneficial than actually changing it. Or some may sincerely believe that the person being formed in the womb merits rights and protections. It seems to me that the destruction of millions of children is the catastrophic consequence of abandoning every principle set forth in the Declaration on the Family. Surely we will be held accountable for that.
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