It's Official: SCOTUS Overturns Roe v. Wade

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

For a pro-lifer, the woman’s choice has little to do with the conversation. There is a living person in her stomach and the only reason they are on with abortion is because they are emotionally detached. There would be no woman who would willingly kill a baby that is newly born.

That’s true now, but has not always been the case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

[Tacenda]

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

For a pro-lifer, the woman’s choice has little to do with the conversation. There is a living person in her stomach and the only reason they are on with abortion is because they are emotionally detached. There would be no woman who would willingly kill a baby that is newly born.

Doesn't sound like you've heard from many women who made the choice to abort, grieved it deeply while still believe it was the correct decision. There are many, many like this. I recommend that you listen to more women.

[MikeFoxtrot]

13 minutes ago, Fether said:

For a pro-lifer, the woman’s choice has little to do with the conversation. There is a living person in her stomach and the only reason they are on with abortion is because they are emotionally detached. There would be no woman who would willingly kill a baby that is newly born.

Why do you think it is that parents mourn the loss of a toddler more than they mourn a miscarriage?

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Doesn't sound like you've heard from many women who made the choice to abort, grieved it deeply while still believe it was the correct decision. There are many, many like this. I recommend that you listen to more women.

Someone grieving, no matter how deep, is no moral justification for killing an unborn baby. 

[Fether]

Just now, MikeFoxtrot said:

Why do you think it is that parents mourn the loss of a toddler more than they mourn a miscarriage?

Because there is less emotional connection and mentally it doesn’t seem as there was every really a life to be loved.

[Meadowchik]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

Someone grieving, no matter how deep, is no moral justification for killing an unborn baby. 

Not saying it is, just that you seem to be mischaracterizing the decision process of women who abort. Again, it sounds like you're ignorant of the real world agonies women face. I recommend you read their stories and listen to more women.

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Because there is less emotional connection and mentally it doesn’t seem as there was every really a life to be loved.

There are women who abort who want the baby more than anything in the world but do so because the baby cannot survive, and other concerns, concerns which are often complicated by the laws restricting their decisions.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Fine with me, but hat's not going to fly today!

That's the Proclamation right there!

It assumes male and female roles, and real pronouns.  If you subscribe to such a radical idea, you ought to be LDS!

 

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Not saying it is, just that you seem to be mischaracterizing the decision process of women who abort. Again, it sounds like you're ignorant of the real world agonies women face. I recommend you read their stories and listen to more women.

I agree 100%. I know nothing of it. I am very willing to offer sympathy and patience with anyone going through it. But it won’t change my view that an unborn baby is just as valuable as a born baby.

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

There are women who abort who want the baby more than anything in the world but do so because the baby cannot survive, and other concerns, concerns which are often complicated by the laws restricting their decisions.

It’s the “other concerns” part I am hesitant about

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree 100%. I know nothing of it. I am very willing to offer sympathy and patience with anyone going through it. But it won’t change my view that an unborn baby is just as valuable as a born baby.

I don't disagree about value. It's just that the circumstances are different. The situation of living completely inside another person is fundamentally unique, posing various very specific challenges to the pregnant woman.

[MikeFoxtrot]

12 minutes ago, Fether said:

Because there is less emotional connection and mentally it doesn’t seem as there was every really a life to be loved.

Why do you think parents mourn miscarriages more than disposing of extra IVF embryos?

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s the “other concerns” part I am hesitant about

Like her own safety, for one. Direct threats to her own health, and indirect threats. Pregnancy can stop a woman from working and supporting herself and other children. It can cause relationship breakdown with her partner which heightens her personal risk. For instance(s).

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Like her own safety, for one. Direct threats to her own health, and indirect threats. Pregnancy can stop a woman from working and supporting herself and other children. It can cause relationship breakdown with her partner which heightens her personal risk. For instance(s).

If a fetus is viewed as a "risk", who should be responsible for those risks that caused pregnancy in the first place?  The mother and father who made the decision to take the risk, or the fetus who had no say in the matter?  Except in the extreme cases where the pregnancy turns from a healthy state of homeostasis (almost all pregnancies) to a terminal condition, I think the parents bare the responsibility for any risks. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by pogi

[mrmarklin]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So let women use their bodies in their wisdom. Don't dictate and be careful... your attempt to control via the state can result in them not being allowed to follow God's will.

There really is no reason to personalize this. I’m doing nothing but quoting a scripture. If you don’t believe, don’t put the quote on me. It should be irrelevant.  IIRC I did not post the scripture in reply to anyone.  I don’t know why you think I’m dictating to anyone. 
 

God has also granted free agency. Do what you want. 

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

If a fetus is viewed as a "risk", who should be responsible for those risks that caused pregnancy in the first place?  The mother and father who made the decision to take the risk, or the fetus who had no say in the matter?

 

The mother bears the risk and the child within her, it's her province to manage.

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

There really is no reason to personalize this. I’m doing nothing but quoting a scripture. If you don’t believe, don’t put the quote on me. It should be irrelevant.  IIRC I did not post the scripture in reply to anyone.  I don’t know why you think I’m dictating to anyone. 
 

God has also granted free agency. Do what you want. 

You're using it in direct reference to a legal conflict where government is usurping control over women's bodies.

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The mother bears the risk and the child within her, it's her province to manage.

Choosing abortion is not bearing responsibility for the risks, it is pawning them off on the child.  Why should the child bear responsibility for her, and his, actions?  

It is her province, and that of the father, to protect the life they created together. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by pogi

[Meadowchik]

Just now, pogi said:

Why should the child bear responsibility for her actions?  

It is her province, and that of the father, to protect the life they created. 

Because it's not about what is fair. It is about what a mother can and will do, given her circumstances, most of which she doesn't choose either. She can only do the best she can with the situation she is in.

[Meadowchik]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Choosing abortion is not bearing responsibility for the risks, it is pawning them off on the child.  

That doesn't sound right.

Sometimes abortion is a decision in favor of the interests of the aborted. Like someone who's body is incompatible with life. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

 

Sometimes abortion is a decision in favor of the interests of the aborted. Like someone who's body is incompatible with life. 

I struggle with this idea because I don't think we really have the ability to know that being killed is in the best interest of the fetus or not.  I think that it a lot of the time it is the easier choice for us (because we don't want to see someone we love in pain or struggling).  I hold no judgment for people in that position.

[Fether]

44 minutes ago, MikeFoxtrot said:

Why do you think parents mourn miscarriages more than disposing of extra IVF embryos?

Do they?

If so, I assume it is simply because of connection to them. The further something away is, the easier it is to not be affected by it.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Fether

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Because it's not about what is fair. It is about what a mother can and will do, given her circumstances, most of which she doesn't choose either. She can only do the best she can with the situation she is in.

The best she can do is have the child.  Because to do otherwise is not only not fair, it is not right to deny the right to life to another human being.   If it brings hardship, that is her, and the fathers, responsibility to bear. 

I doubt we will agree on what is right, or what should be legal, or who deserves human rights, but I am happy that we can at least agree that abortion is not fair for the child.  I wish that we could agree about responsibility.  That seems to be a principle lost.

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I struggle with this idea because I don't think we really have the ability to know that being killed is in the best interest of the fetus or not.  I think that it a lot of the time it is the easier choice for us (because we don't want to see someone we love in pain or struggling).  I hold no judgment for people in that position.

Well that's the thing, I think in such a situation we may feel very clearly that it is right to end the pregnancy. I know women who have felt like this, being completely committed to the interests of their unborn child.