Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

"Mormon No More"


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

So the CES director wanted to respond. That's why I said, "Well, you're not the CES director".

The grandfather may have volunteered his friend without his friend’s knowledge up front though.  We have only Runnell’s version of the conversation with his grandfather, iirc, who was possibly relaying his friend’s offer or possibly making the offer for his friend (or had R’s version, not going to try and dig it out, but if anyone wants to, my memory is it is in the earliest Reddit post’s of Runnells’s.  Unfortunately I can’t remember his alias, so it could take some searching, but shouldn’t be too hard to track down).

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Calm said:

The grandfather may have volunteered his friend without his friend’s knowledge up front though.  We have only Runnell’s version of the conversation with his grandfather, iirc, who was possibly relaying his friend’s offer or possibly making the offer for his friend (or had R’s version, not going to try and dig it out, but if anyone wants to, my memory is it is in the earliest Reddit post’s of Runnells’s.  Unfortunately I can’t remember his alias, so it could take some searching, but shouldn’t be too hard to track down).

It's okay, I don't know why it matters really, but kind of you to offer. 

ETA: I found this just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Runnells#:~:text=A director of institute of,his letter on the internet.

Jeremy T. Runnells is a critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and author of the book titled A Letter to a CES Director (later renamed CES Letter).[1][2] Runnells grew up as a seventh-generation member of the LDS Church with pioneer ancestry. He served a mission for the church in New York and graduated from church-owned Brigham Young University.[3][4] In 2012, he began to experience doubts over his faith. A director of institute of the LDS Church's Church Educational System (CES) asked him to write his concerns, and in response Runnells sent an 84-page letter with his concerns.[5]

After not receiving a response, in April 2013 he posted his letter on the internet.[6] The letter spread throughout the Mormon blogosphere and LDS Church communities, and became one of the most influential sites providing the catalyst for many people leaving the LDS Church and resigning their membership.[7][6]

Edited by Tacenda
Link to comment

What Runnells said later when he published it was not the same thing he said on the exmormon Reddit group when he first said what he was doing and asking for help. 
 

For example, he was already a nonbeliever.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
9 hours ago, Calm said:

What Runnells said later when he published it was not the same thing he said on the exmormon Reddit group when he first said what he was doing and asking for help. 
 

For example, he was already a nonbeliever.

I've run into four different people IRL in the last few weeks alone who cited it as having an impact on their belief. Why the letter/document exists seems to only be important to those who are not questioning where they are at in the church. 

Link to comment
16 hours ago, MrShorty said:

In some ways this feels like a "gotcha" question. The short, obvious answer is, "no." I find that the real hard part of this question, though, is trying to pin down exactly what covenants I (or any individual) have made with God. When I married, did I covenant to be sexually available to my spouse? Speaking to @Daniel2 and others in the LGBT community, do their covenants include a "thou shalt not marry a member of thine own sex?" Who decides what is included in our covenants to God? The Church? Ourselves? A mix of the two? Who arbitrates differences of opinion between individuals and the Church? Yes, indeed, the answer seems so obvious, and yet I find so many confusing undercurrents underneath the question that I find I cannot tell someone they should not divorce and remarry or they should not marry someone of their same sex in their quest for sexual fulfillment.

I've found that when I find myself confused about the covenants I've made that it's good to return to the temple and perform those ordinances as a proxy for others.  The temple imparts a wonderful clarity or mind and purpose.

16 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Another question that seems so simple on the surface, but so complex when you get into the undercurrents. I expect that almost everyone would say that sex is not THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of marriage. At the same time, I see almost no one arguing that sex is an inconsequential or discardable aspect of marriage. There's also the commonly cited (but I don't know that there is any hard data behind it) 80:20 rule that essentially says that, when the marriage is good, sex contributes 20% towards the relationship satisfaction, but when things are bad, sex contributes 80% towards the relationship dissatisfaction. How does one truly measure the importance of different aspects of marriage? What aspects are unimportant enough that they can be discarded? Which aspects are important enough that they cannot be discarded?

I don't know how you, @ksfisher or others on this site, would answer those questions, but I have not found good, universal, reliable answers to them.

Sex is an important part of marriage, and one that I suspect all couples could improve.  No aspect of marriage is unimportant, but I would also say that no one aspect is more important than the marriage.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I've run into four different people IRL in the last few weeks alone who cited it as having an impact on their belief. Why the letter/document exists seems to only be important to those who are not questioning where they are at in the church. 

Mormons who downplay the effect of the CES letter don't have any actual experience talking with people who are struggling because of it. I've mentioned before that I have often been asked to meet with CES letter people (who are willing to have people discuss it), and it is not just a rare and occasional thing. 

Yes, it's not remarkable in and of itself, but it is a one-stop shopping, omnibus collection of claims and complaints about Church history, doctrine, and practices. 

Link to comment
38 minutes ago, rongo said:

Mormons who downplay the effect of the CES letter don't have any actual experience talking with people who are struggling because of it. I've mentioned before that I have often been asked to meet with CES letter people (who are willing to have people discuss it), and it is not just a rare and occasional thing. 

Yes, it's not remarkable in and of itself, but it is a one-stop shopping, omnibus collection of claims and complaints about Church history, doctrine, and practices. 

You are likely correct.  There are a lot of people who grew up in the church and never studied anything beyond the basics.  They believe in the church, but it is not a strong and deep testimony.

When they begin to question the church, usually after spending too much time in worldly pursuits or social media, they lack the foundation.  The childhood legacy isn't enough anymore.

Many go "research" the Church not knowing they are finding info from apostates on the internet.  And if they run into the CES letter, they have little ability to hold on to the Iron Rod, even with a single finger. 

Come Follow Me is a nice supplement to help provide a very basic level of teaching, but I do feel like the "edifying of the Saints" part of the church has been weakened.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I've run into four different people IRL in the last few weeks alone who cited it as having an impact on their belief. Why the letter/document exists seems to only be important to those who are not questioning where they are at in the church. 

Which is unfortunate Imo. If they knew he misrepresented the very reason he created the letter, not to help with doubts, but to create more, perhaps they would use more caution and take the time to do research and find more accurate details and nuances and take time to think about them before jumping to conclusions…which is all I wish those having doubts would do.  

There are many things that can cause imo legitimate issues and doubt in the Church’s history and policies for many people and if these gaps aren’t fill with personal experiences that have led to significant faith or an ability to be quite patient for answers or even an ability to take a leap of faith, then it is understandable Imo why they have doubt and even leave many times…and there are plenty of people who have good reasons not to have the above in critical areas, so I am not suggesting the Church would be bulletproof if members didn’t assume some falsehoods presented by over enthusiastic critics were true.  I just think it is a real shame when something isn’t really an issue, but has been made to look like it does causes damage, whether in faith, relationship, or anything else. If you are going to leave your faith, change your life, leave someone you love, do it for a meaningful reason.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which is unfortunate Imo. If they knew he misrepresented the very reason he created the letter, not to help with doubts, but to create more, perhaps they would use more caution and take the time to do research and find more accurate details and nuances and take time to think about them before jumping to conclusions…which is all I wish those having doubts would do.  

For none of them was the CES letter the first step. And I don't think any of them cared about the motivations behind the letter. We encourage prospective members to join the church with very little information, details and certainly nothing in the way of nuances. Why should leaving it be any different? If it feels right for them to leave, why should we demand more than that? I mean it's not like we caution people about F.A.I.R. being designed to keep people in the church when we send them there is it? We have to stop talking about Church information in terms of being negative or positive and talk about how accurate it is.

 

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

You are likely correct.  There are a lot of people who grew up in the church and never studied anything beyond the basics.  They believe in the church, but it is not a strong and deep testimony.

When they begin to question the church, usually after spending too much time in worldly pursuits or social media, they lack the foundation.  The childhood legacy isn't enough anymore

This facile dismissal of why lifelong members leave reeks of boundary maintenance and fails to address real issues.

2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

Many go "research" the Church not knowing they are finding info from apostates on the internet.  

At least in the case of one lifelong full tithe payer returned missionary I just talked to, it was the dreaded apostate Richard Bushman and his Rough Stone Rolling that started him questioning.

Edited by CA Steve
Link to comment
9 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

For none of them was the CES letter the first step. And I don't think any of them cared about the motivations behind the letter. We encourage prospective members to join the church with very little information, details and certainly nothing in the way of nuances. Why should leaving it be any different? If it feels right for them to leave, why should we demand more than that? I mean it's not like we caution people about F.A.I.R. being designed to keep people in the church when we send them there is it? We have to stop talking about Church information in terms of being negative or positive and talk about how accurate it is.

 

This facile dismissal of why lifelong members leave reeks of boundary maintenance and fails to address real issues.

At least in the case of one lifelong full tithe payer returned missionary I just talked to, it was the dreaded apostate Richard Bushman and his Rough Stone Rolling that started him questioning.

If Rough Stone Rolling caused anyone to question the church, then they didn't have the foundation of the gospel themselves.

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

If Rough Stone Rolling caused anyone to question the church, then they didn't have the foundation of the gospel themselves.

I  know right? We should just get rid of all these members who testimonies aren't as strong as ours.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

If Rough Stone Rolling caused anyone to question the church, then they didn't have the foundation of the gospel themselves.

I think most people question and leave because they created some dogmatic or fixed assumption or expectation on an issue and if something disrupts it, they get all bothered and experience spiritual anxiety.  Sometimes our expectations and views are a little off center.  New information does not have to destroy our faith.  It can actually make it stronger if we incorporate it and make adjustments.  For some it is all or nothing.  For others, they just don't have the patience to wait for answers or set things aside for a while.  There have been issues in my life where I did not know the answer.  Rather than let it bother my testimony or question my faith, I set the matter aside.   Some of those questions resolved themselves in time as I slowly acquired new information and understanding.  We live in a fast food, microwave oven, speed of google generation.  They wants answers and they want it now.   They will throw a life time of faith in 6 months if they don't get the answers to their questions now.  We are living in the time that the prophets said that those who do not have the spirit will fall away.  We are living in exciting times and scary times as we inch towards the 2nd coming each day. 

Link to comment

@ksfisher, I'm not sure how far to take this tangent. For now, I will just say that I agree that temple attendance is helpful for discerning what my covenants with God look like, I have not found anything in the temple or elsewhere that allows me to judge for someone else when divorce and remarriage for the purpose of pursuing sexual fulfillment is, as @carbon dioxide initially described it, selling an eternal birthright for a temporary mess of potage.

Link to comment
19 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I think most people question and leave because they created some dogmatic or fixed assumption or expectation on an issue and if something disrupts it, they get all bothered and experience spiritual anxiety. 

Managing expectations and assumptions is certainly part of it, but I think for most people who have a faith crisis, it's the feeling of betrayal and deception that trumps everything after that.* Lost trust is not easily regained, and the raw emotions make weighing evidence and arguments dicey.

*Whether or not the feelings of deception and betrayal cause the expectations/assumptions problems, or whether the expectations/assumptions problems cause the feelings of betrayal and deception, is a chicken/egg question. It's probably both/and, not either/or, but the main thing is that the emotions of feeling like the rug has been pulled out are very difficult to overcome after it happens. 

Link to comment
On 6/30/2022 at 3:24 PM, The Nehor said:

The “dead bedroom” stories are very sad. I almost made a joke about it while talking about lesbian bed death but thought it might be in poor taste. 

That's never stopped you before, has it? ;) 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, rongo said:

Managing expectations and assumptions is certainly part of it, but I think for most people who have a faith crisis, it's the feeling of betrayal and deception that trumps everything after that.* Lost trust is not easily regained, and the raw emotions make weighing evidence and arguments dicey.

 

Who is really to blame for the betrayal or deception?  The Church has never claimed that everything in Church history was taught in Church meetings.   It is up to the individual to learn all the little things in Church doctrine and history.  It is not the job of the church to hold our hands and guide us through everything.  Sure it should do a lot more to help but the buck stops with us.  Most of the issue for example that I read about in the CES letter I came exposed to over time on my own.   The Church did not bring them up but I did my job and for most of them, I have resolved those things for myself.   Faith crisis are real but most crises are our own making.  Some like to blame something else to make themselves feel better and if that is claiming betrayal or deception to ease the minds, they will resort to that. 

Link to comment

I wonder if this coincided with "Mormon No More", and used as a way of counteracting. It's on the Washington D. C. Latter-day Saint Temple  facebook profile with these words below: 

“The Washington D.C. temple will always be an incredibly special place to me. Five years ago in this very building I said the most fervent prayer of my life. I asked God if he still loved me even though I’m gay. It was the first prayer I ever offered about my orientation that wasn’t a desperate plea to change it. Instead, it was a sincere desire to know how my Father in Heaven felt about this part of me, and if I should stop running away from it. The answer I received was one of profound love and acceptance. I felt a sacred surety that God is the architect of my soul — an all-knowing, eternal being who created me by divine design. The knowledge healed parts of my heart I didn’t even know were broken.
It was thrilling to be back in the very place where I had such a life-altering experience. If you’ve read my book, you know I geek out on the translucent marble walls and the seven-story stained glass runners. They looked as beautiful as ever, and I loved touring the building and admiring its design features. I appreciated the new art pieces displayed. They represented many different kinds of people, and it made me happy to see diversity depicted on the temple walls.
Ryan came to the open house with me, and it was really special to share this place that’s so close to my heart. I’ve grown a lot since the first time I was here, and I owe much of that to him. I feel grateful for his patience, faith, and desire to stand in holy places. Our futures hold a lot of unknowns, but right now the plan is to stay close to Christ and take things one day at a time.
Being a gay member of The Church of Jesus Christ is difficult. It’s so easy to feel scared and overwhelmed. But while walking the temple grounds I felt assurance and peace. I know I am a child of God, I have a testimony of my Savior, and I’m grateful for the covenants I’ve made to serve and remember Him. I love the hope and direction my faith provides, and I’m so happy I got to reflect on it this week at the D.C. temple open house!
May be an image of 2 people, people standing and outdoors
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Link to comment
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if this coincided with "Mormon No More", and used as a way of counteracting. It's on the Washington D. C. Latter-day Saint Temple  facebook profile with these words below: 

“The Washington D.C. temple will always be an incredibly special place to me. Five years ago in this very building I said the most fervent prayer of my life. I asked God if he still loved me even though I’m gay. It was the first prayer I ever offered about my orientation that wasn’t a desperate plea to change it. Instead, it was a sincere desire to know how my Father in Heaven felt about this part of me, and if I should stop running away from it. The answer I received was one of profound love and acceptance. I felt a sacred surety that God is the architect of my soul — an all-knowing, eternal being who created me by divine design. The knowledge healed parts of my heart I didn’t even know were broken.
It was thrilling to be back in the very place where I had such a life-altering experience. If you’ve read my book, you know I geek out on the translucent marble walls and the seven-story stained glass runners. They looked as beautiful as ever, and I loved touring the building and admiring its design features. I appreciated the new art pieces displayed. They represented many different kinds of people, and it made me happy to see diversity depicted on the temple walls.
Ryan came to the open house with me, and it was really special to share this place that’s so close to my heart. I’ve grown a lot since the first time I was here, and I owe much of that to him. I feel grateful for his patience, faith, and desire to stand in holy places. Our futures hold a lot of unknowns, but right now the plan is to stay close to Christ and take things one day at a time.
Being a gay member of The Church of Jesus Christ is difficult. It’s so easy to feel scared and overwhelmed. But while walking the temple grounds I felt assurance and peace. I know I am a child of God, I have a testimony of my Savior, and I’m grateful for the covenants I’ve made to serve and remember Him. I love the hope and direction my faith provides, and I’m so happy I got to reflect on it this week at the D.C. temple open house!
May be an image of 2 people, people standing and outdoors
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

That is beautiful! Thank you for sharing this. 

Link to comment
On 6/30/2022 at 5:46 PM, carbon dioxide said:

I have been watching Bill Maher on real time a lot recently has he really has ramped up his criticism of the transgender thing.  The whole gender thing is more trendy than a real thing.   He notes how many parents in the hollywood culture seem to have a transgender kid but hardly any parents in the real world don't.  Personally I am getting tired of all of it.  I have heard more in the media about LBGT in the last 6 months than I heard in my first 45 years of life.    Yes LGBT people exist but I have had my fill of the topic for the next 30 years.

I’ve had my fill of white, straight,  conservative males in the news, but I guess they aren’t going anywhere so I’ll have to find a way to cope. 

Link to comment
22 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve had my fill of white, straight,  conservative males in the news, but I guess they aren’t going anywhere so I’ll have to find a way to cope. 

Bill Maher is a conservative?!  Huh. :huh:  Who knew?  I guess the fact that he's skewered every Republican president from Nixon to the present mercilessly was just a smokescreen, then. :huh: :blink: :shok: 

Who knew? ;) :D 

Link to comment
53 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Bill Maher is a conservative?!  Huh. :huh:  Who knew?  I guess the fact that he's skewered every Republican president from Nixon to the present mercilessly was just a smokescreen, then. :huh: :blink: :shok: 

Who knew? ;) :D 

I think he has just skewered every president from Nixon to the present mercilessly. Part of why I like him. He leans left but he is an off-brand leftist and on the left is he viewed as an uncomfortable ally or an enemy depending on the issue.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...