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"Mormon No More"


CA Steve

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No, this isn't a thread about why I left the church. 

Looks like Hulu is on a roll here with Mormon themed series.  Starting tomorrow 24 June 2022 on Hulu (shoot! I cancelled my subscription because UTBH was so bad!) is a new documentary series called:

"Mormon No More".  "Mormon No More" Salt Lake Magazine Article. Let's hope it is better written than UTBH.

From the Salt Lake Magazine article.

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The moms in question are Lena Schwen and Sally “Sal” Osborne. Before Schwen and Osborne came out, they did the things that two women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are supposed to do. They married men. They had seven children between them. Then a mutual friend introduced the two women. They became friends, but Schwen and Osborne later realized that what they felt for each other was more than just friendship. The trailer encapsulates this moment in a single line: “We were creating the perfect Mormon family, and then I fell in love with my friend.” 

This is where the documentary picks up. According to a release from ABC News Studios,  Mormon No More follows the couple as they find their truth, live the pain of losing their faith and navigate their fraught exits out of the LDS church and their “straight” marriages. Through it all, there’s also the practical challenges of learning how to co-parent seven children with their ex-husbands and planning their wedding.

It is already getting national attention. This morning on Good Morning America they did a bit on it.

 

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My 19-yr-old daughter (soon to be heading to Argentina Bahia Blanca!) brought it to my attention just yesterday. I have a niece who has recently left the faith for pursuit of a potential same-sex relationship. She posts regularly about her journey and put on Instagram this upcoming documentary. We watched the trailer.

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Given the documented tendency of lesbian relationships to experience lesbian bed death after a few years, they could have just stayed best friends with and skipped the few years of having lesbian sex and not disrupted their families and ditched their religion.

It used to be that people could have strong same sex friendships without any sexual aspect.

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2 hours ago, SkyRock said:

Given the documented tendency of lesbian relationships to experience lesbian bed death after a few years, they could have just stayed best friends with and skipped the few years of having lesbian sex and not disrupted their families and ditched their religion.

It used to be that people could have strong same sex friendships without any sexual aspect.

Lesbian bed death is (mostly) a popular myth that has caught on. Most of the studies pointing to it are 20 years old or older and left vague what kind of “sex” counts. They do tend to have less “sex” but unless you define what that means it is hard to interpret. More recent studies suggest satisfaction in relationships is roughly on par with with women in heterosexual relationships.

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6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Lesbian bed death is (mostly) a popular myth that has caught on. Most of the studies pointing to it are 20 years old or older and left vague what kind of “sex” counts. They do tend to have less “sex” but unless you define what that means it is hard to interpret. More recent studies suggest satisfaction in relationships is roughly on par with with women in heterosexual relationships.

I never heard of this until I read the studies years ago.   The studies I have read noted that most Lesbian relationships had almost zero sex after a few years, not about relationships quality or satisfaction. They noted that the women they studied seemed to lack the need for sex after a certain time.  Many heterosexual women seem content to have a greatly reduced sex life in marriages after some years,  too. 

There may be more recent studies that show light on this, but I haven't seen any that contradict the earlier ones. 

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8 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

I never heard of this until I read the studies years ago.   The studies I have read noted that most Lesbian relationships had almost zero sex after a few years, not about relationships quality or satisfaction. They noted that the women they studied seemed to lack the need for sex after a certain time.  Many heterosexual women seem content to have a greatly reduced sex life in marriages after some years,  too. 

There may be more recent studies that show light on this, but I haven't seen any that contradict the earlier ones. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_bed_death

I probably can’t explain much of the more recent debunks of the prevalence of bed death without breaking board rules.

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On 6/23/2022 at 3:35 PM, The Nehor said:

Lesbian bed death is (mostly) a popular myth that has caught on. Most of the studies pointing to it are 20 years old or older and left vague what kind of “sex” counts. They do tend to have less “sex” but unless you define what that means it is hard to interpret. More recent studies suggest satisfaction in relationships is roughly on par with with women in heterosexual relationships.

And the two women in the series probably won't have time anyway, raising 7 children together and all are very young. 

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On 6/23/2022 at 8:15 AM, Vanguard said:

I have a niece who has recently left the faith for pursuit of a potential same-sex relationship. She posts regularly about her journey and put on Instagram this upcoming documentary. We watched the trailer.

It is always interesting to see people trade 30 or maybe 50 years of their existence for something like this for a hundred trillion earth years of time of regret.  It is like giving up a 500 million dollar lottery ticket that can be redeemed in 2 years for a snickers bar today.   The choices people make. 

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3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is always interesting to see people trade 30 or maybe 50 years of their existence for something like this for a hundred trillion earth years of time of regret.  It is like giving up a 500 million dollar lottery ticket that can be redeemed in 2 years for a snickers bar today.   The choices people make. 

They either don’t believe in the hundred trillion years of bliss or are convinced they wouldn’t get it anyways.

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I like the balanced way they are telling the story. I got emotional with one of the pair's mother's acceptance of her daughter, but holding strong to her LDS beliefs. 

I think this show really shows the LDS families in a good light. I almost wonder if it draws some converts, because the LDS in the show are some really cool people. 

It does bring up the reasons some fall away and the CES letter but doesn't delve strong into that so much. But I think it shows what many non LDS see, that the LDS are a good people.  

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On 6/23/2022 at 12:32 PM, SkyRock said:

Given the documented tendency of lesbian relationships to experience lesbian bed death after a few years, they could have just stayed best friends with and skipped the few years of having lesbian sex and not disrupted their families and ditched their religion.

It used to be that people could have strong same sex friendships without any sexual aspect.

I wonder if this is a part of why so many more teen girls are now identifying as "gay" or "bisexual."  In the past, a girl could form strong emotional bonds with a friend.  This was a very normal thing.  But in these days of massively increased exposure to sexuality and sexualization, young girls are starting to add an overlay of sexuality (a "sexual aspect," as you call it) to such friendships.

We are seeing indications that "'{r}apid-onset gender dysphoria' among teens and young adults may be a social contagion linked with having friends who identify as LGBT, an identity politics peer culture, and an increase in internet use, finds a study out this month from a Brown University professor."  I wonder if a comparable effect is happening as to "identifying" as gay/bisexual.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Jasper Swartz recently realized that nearly all of their friends are “queer in some way.”

They were 8 years old when same-sex marriage became legal in Maryland, about 12 when they realized they were attracted to girls and 14 when they came out as nonbinary, using they/them pronouns. Jasper grew up scrolling through gay memes on Instagram and following transgender influencers on YouTube. They attended a diverse public middle school in Montgomery County, Md., that taught lessons about sexual orientation and gender identity in health class.

“But at that point,” Jasper said, “I was already familiar with the stuff they were teaching.”

Jasper is a member of Generation Z, a group of young Americans that is breaking from binary notions of gender and sexuality — and is far more likely than older generations to identify as something other than heterosexual.

One in six adults in Generation Z identifies as LGBT, according to survey data released early Wednesday from Gallup, providing some of the most detailed and up-to-date estimates yet on the size and makeup of the nation’s LGBT population.

And here:

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A new Gallup poll published on Feb. 24 shows 1 in 6 Gen Z adults identify as LGBT. These results represent a remarkable jump from 2017, when 4.5 percent of Americans identified as LGBT, a number that has now risen to 5.6 percent just three years later.

The increase is indeed dramatic, yet it doesn’t fully tell the whole story. Why? While the population of Americans identifying as LGBT has risen steadily since 2012, last year the question was expanded from a simple “yes” or “no” to LGBT identity to include specific categories to choose from. Only one identity group showed a dramatic increase: bisexual women.

Of the 5.6 percent of all adults who identify as LGBT, 3.1 percent identify as bisexual, making up 54.6 percent of all LGBT adults. When broken down to the Gen Z age group (those aged 18 to 23), 11.5 percent identify as bisexual. In contrast, 5.1 percent of millennials and only 1.8 percent of Gen X identify as such. Across the board, all other categories, which include gay, lesbian, transgender, and others, remained steady.
...
Women are more likely to identify as LGBT than men, with 4.3 percent identifying as bisexual and only 1.8 percent of men identifying the same.

One in ten high school students identify as LGBT. Of these, 75 percent are female, and 77 percent identify as bisexual. As detailed by the Washington Post, the Williams Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles has found that 35 percent of LGBT adults are bisexual women.
...

So why are young women exceedingly more likely to identify as neither gender and bisexual? The argument that today’s society is more accepting and readily allows people to be their true selves doesn’t account for this exclusive, targeted change in women.

Neither does the argument for a genetic or natural human biological component. The poll does not indicate a rise in LGBT Americans — it tells us gay and transgender numbers are stable and, yet, very suddenly, there has been an increase in bisexual women who reject female identity.

If the breakdown of celebrities who came out in 2020 is any indication, men overwhelmingly come out as gay while women tend to come out as bisexual, pansexual, or simply queer. In practice, bisexual identity, similar to non-binary and gender-fluid identity, may not require as big of a social change or commitment as being gay or transgender.

According to a Pew Research Center survey from Stanford University, nine in 10 bisexual people in a committed relationship are with someone of the opposite sex. This does not mean bisexuality is invalid as a sexual orientation or to suggest bisexual people are simply “going through a phase,” but identifying as bisexual doesn’t necessarily alter their lifestyle the way being gay or transgender would.
...
Rather than reflecting the natural progression of openness to human variation in sexuality and gender identity, it seems to better reflect a pop culture fad to be included in the LGBT spectrum in any way possible. This seems especially true for younger people, who are inundated with LGBT education, culture, and positivity and, as Abigail discusses in her book, find meaning in being different, unique, and rebellious, along with their friends. As indicated by the Gallup survey, as people age, their identities become more stable and bisexuality drops significantly.
...
For young women seeking identity and being part of a special or important group, all they have to do is cut their hair short, dress like a boy, and declare themselves non-binary or bisexual to gain instant victimhood status and self-validation. If it becomes too much and they still get the exciting thrill of being LGBT, they can always slip back into safer roles.
...

While LGBT media and advocacy insist on projecting a narrative of anti-LGBT hatred oppressing vulnerable LGBT youth, the reality appears to be that LGBT identity is a highly desirable social status, a state of things both positive and negative. On the one hand, it demonstrates how far LGBT equality has come, but on the other, it diminishes and trivializes the experience of LGBT Americans.

Ultimately, for gay and transgender people, little has changed. For young women, however, queer identity may just be the newest fashion trend they are eager to show off on social media.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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I have watched the first two episodes. Here are some of my initial reactions and comments

Contrary to UTBH, I actually recognized Mormon's and their behavior in this series. It seems quite well done.  We have Mormons telling their story in their own environments. These people are talking and acting the way I believe Mormons act and talk. That is certainly due to the fact that this is a documentary, not some horribly written fictionalized drama.

The main participants, two ex-husbands and the two gay ex-wives come across very sympathetically. The emotional journey all of them have been going through seems very real, especially one of the ex-husbands, who is struggling most with this change.

The impact of the Church's stance on LBGTQ members and their families is on full display, BYU especially is being featured since these two couples both attended. Multiple side stories about how Gay students at the Y are told, especially those involved with lighting up the 'Y'.

The CES letter is presented as part of the reason on of the couples lost belief. This happened before the two wives got together.

So far I think it is quite good.  It is giving a frank view of what it is like to come out to your family and church and the repercussion of doing so.

 

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3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The CES letter is presented as part of the reason on of the couples lost belief. This happened before the two wives got together.

The thing I find interesting about the CES letter is why it became a big deal in the first place.  I got bored with it after about 10 minutes as there was nothing in it that was unique or breaking news.  All of it was just rehashed arguments found in dozens of other anti mormon books.  Perhaps it was the packaging but the substance itself is old news. 

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8 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The thing I find interesting about the CES letter is why it became a big deal in the first place.  I got bored with it after about 10 minutes as there was nothing in it that was unique or breaking news.  All of it was just rehashed arguments found in dozens of other anti mormon books.  Perhaps it was the packaging but the substance itself is old news. 

It was having everything piled up in one place and the drinking out of a firehose effect without any filtering of the information that overwhelms some people. And they assume everything said in it is true without doing any research on there own to determine what is real. It's the kind of thing that fence sitters ( who are most likely already on their way out) can use to push them over the edge and use as justification for their leaving.

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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

It was having everything piled up in one place and the drinking out of a firehose effect without any filtering of the information that overwhelms some people. And they assume everything said in it is true without doing any research on there own to determine what is real. It's the kind of thing that fence sitters ( who are most likely already on their way out) can use to push them over the edge and use as justification for their leaving.

The whole back story of that letter as I understand it is a joke.  Why would anyone really think that anyone would respond to such a thing.  If a friend of mine sent me a list of a 100 or 200 things they had a problems with the Church, I would toss it in the garbage. I don't have time for that.  I would say to them give me 5 or maybe 10 things.   Serious people don't write up things like that and expect any kind of response. 

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3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if this is a part of why so many more teen girls are now identifying as "gay" or "bisexual."  In the past, a girl could form strong emotional bonds with a friend.  This was a very normal thing.  But in these days of massively increased exposure to sexuality and sexualization, young girls are starting to add an overlay of sexuality (a "sexual aspect," as you call it) to such friendships.

It is much simpler then that. Women joking about a romantic or sexual element to their friendship is just growing more and more common. Partially it is an attempt to affirm each other. It is driving many bisexual and lesbian women crazy because it gets harder and harder to determine when there is real relationship interest.

There has been a bit of trying to identify as bisexual amongst women to feel included but it usually doesn’t last long. Bisexual women who reveal their sexuality are naturally assumed by people *cough* straight guys *cough* to be ‘slutty’ and women who identify as bisexual are also seen as the path to threesomeville. Women I know say that even on dating sites guys will contact them out of nowhere wanting a threesome and for her to find a third. Lesbian women often get even creepier messages but I hear the volume is not as high. A lot of bisexual women looking for men online label themselves as straight to cut down on spam. To find women they usually go to heavily moderated women only spots on the web. Bisexual men are just viewed as gross and disgusting by women and as closeted gays by guys but they don’t get harassed as much so they do have it easier than their counterparts.

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56 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The whole back story of that letter as I understand it is a joke.  Why would anyone really think that anyone would respond to such a thing.  If a friend of mine sent me a list of a 100 or 200 things they had a problems with the Church, I would toss it in the garbage. I don't have time for that.  I would say to them give me 5 or maybe 10 things.   Serious people don't write up things like that and expect any kind of response. 

Well, you're not a CES director. 

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18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is always interesting to see people trade 30 or maybe 50 years of their existence for something like this for a hundred trillion earth years of time of regret.  It is like giving up a 500 million dollar lottery ticket that can be redeemed in 2 years for a snickers bar today.   The choices people make. 

How much time in your life have you considered the fact that your belief system is wrong, Zoroastrianism is correct l, and you are in for a hundred trillion years of regret? Why should I spend more time worrying about your made up belief system than you spend worrying about theirs?

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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2 hours ago, JAHS said:

And they assume everything said in it is true without doing any research on there own to determine what is real.

My experience is they believe with that much material enough must be true even if a great deal is wrong.  And because many who buy into the CES Letter hold a relatively black and white or a simplistic view of the Church and the Restoration with often strong hints of a belief in inerrancy, it doesn’t take much being wrong for them to interpret the Restoration as false.  Leadership in the past hasn’t helped with presenting idealized versions of history and suspicion at times of scholarship as well as some holding rather black and white positions themselves.  We need to change the paradigm the members too often use that makes their belief system relatively rigid and unable to adapt to new info, imo.  I think leadership is taking this approach in some ways, such as supporting scholarly/intellectual efforts and publishing the results in a faithful way showing we don’t need to be distrustful of the less idealized details or even the warts.  That way superficial efforts that appear to be quality, but are not will be recognized for what they are.  I rather if people were going to struggle with the Church they do so because of actual issues, such as not receiving their own spiritual witness.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Well, you're not a CES director. 

Not sure what you are saying here.  A CES director didn’t write it, it was a crowdsource effort led by someone intent on proving the Church wrong (he had moved past the doubting stage already according to what he was posting on Reddit).  As I understand it, it was the grandfather? (father) relaying the offer of the CES director to respond.  My guess is there was some miscommunication about what the CES director was saying he would respond to.

As far as responding to it, lots of people are interested because of the impact it has had.  FAIR has taken different approaches over time, now a Sister in Norway is taking it bit by bit.  I haven’t looked at her stuff, but have read some responses to it that were positive, so perhaps others here would be interested.

She is up to part 63..

https://www.facebook.com/FAIRNorway/posts/pfbid02tofazEwgUnkpTQwVUPNK1N79BuDRXE7crA59Q3p6MvL6TEcHJb9wj9fnByeQZBFAl

Other efforts are linked here:

https://debunking-cesletter.com

Edited by Calm
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