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Poll: Opinions of "near-death experiences"


Your opinion of "near-death experiences"?  

43 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your primary general perception of so-called “near death experiences”?

    • Hallucinations and/or spasms of an oxygen-starved brain
      7
    • Exaggerations and/or fabrications
      2
    • Evil or satanic deceptions
      0
    • Potentially plausible and educational only if they support LDS teachings (or my belief system if not LDS)
      3
    • Potentially plausible and educational whether or not they support LDS teachings (or my belief system if not LDS)
      25
    • Too confusing and/or too variable for conclusions to be drawn
      7
    • Irrelevant
      1
    • No opinion
      2
    • I'm not touching this topic with a ten-foot pole!
      1
    • Other (please describe in the comments below)
      1


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7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Any yes, that's because I'm bias and I think if they contradict previous light and revelation then I can dismiss them as a false manifestation.  That's what Joseph taught.

Joseph also taught this:

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

IF this teaching is literally correct, THEN we may reasonably expect to find considerably more actual knowledge of heaven among near-death experiencers than among any religious or scholarly body. 

Also if and when "new wine" comes along, it may not fit neatly into old paradigms. 

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Nobody is getting exalted without an endowment, whether live or proxy.

Likewise nobody receives their diploma without presenting proper ID, BUT that formality is not "what matters most" in context.

________

For you and anyone who is LDS who voted that near-death experiences are "Potentially plausible and educational only if they support LDS teachings (or my belief system if not LDS)", you might enjoy the YouTube channel of Ralph Verlin Jensen.  Based on what I have watched, his descriptions of his experiences are consistent with LDS teachings:

Taught By Christ - Ralph Verlin Jensen - YouTube

Edited by manol
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5 hours ago, Nofear said:

Brigham Young taught that the Spirit World was essentially co-local with the temporal world. While living, our spirit bodies aren't interacting with that world (imagine driving down a road and the road passes through a spirit world mountain -- our spirit bodies clearly don't slam into it).

I agree with Brigham's paradigm!  I think that "locality" in the next world is not so much a matter of "geography", as of energy state.  Here is a crude analogy:

Do you have a microwave oven in your kitchen?  If you look at the plexiglass window, you will see a metal grid.  At the frequency of the microwaves, the wavelengths are so long that they "see" that grid as a solid barrier.  If the oven could raise its frequency - raise its energy state - to a higher frequency, that gridded window would start to become opaque, and then as its frequency continued to rise at some point the oven could "see" through the window and interact with the world beyond, which had always been there but had been "veiled".  Likewise if we could raise our energy state, the "frequency of our vibration" for lack of a better term, we would begin to perceive (though not necessarily visually) into a higher-level world which has been there all along.

In my opinion.

5 hours ago, Nofear said:

For me, I think there is a transitory space between the mortality and death -- a time when our mind and spirit body can prepare for re-entrance to that realm. Think of it as a virtual reality experience. In that scenario, the experience is tailored to mitigate the shock of transition from one realm to the next, both the perceptual and mental shock. And different individuals could very well experience different things. Sometimes relatives could join the "VR" experience, other times not. Sometimes it would mimic the physical reality where their now deceased physical body is, other times it could be a tranquil glade. Sometimes they are just as they are when they died, other times they are younger, or a glowing sparkly dot. Sometimes vocal communication is used, sometimes "telepathic".

Basically, I think of the transition as:  physical world -> death -> ["VR" experience of the mind] -> spirit body -> spirit world

Near death experiences would basically be of the VR experience phase. I don't think there are but a very, very few (if any) who entered the literal spirit world with their literal spirit body. The positive and negative of this position is that I can believe or not believe pretty much anybody's account as real. But, it also means that I can't really use them to inform doctrine or any such thing (which we shouldn't do anyway).

Very interesting idea! 

While the "sensory" experiences in the transitory space may well be "virtual", what do you think of the content, the messages themselves, communicated to the near-death experiencer in that space? 

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

The Spirit World chapter in the Brigham Young Priesthood manual has things like this:
"I can say with regard to parting with our friends, and going ourselves, that I have been near enough to understand eternity so that I have had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered so that when we advance in years we have to be stubbing along and be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth, even, frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning. … God has revealed some little things, with regard to his movements and power, and the operation and motion of the lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability of the Almighty (DBY, 380)."

Yes that sounds very much like the "teleportation" described in many near-death experiences! 

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

In looking at the Teachings of Brigham Young on the Spirit World it is evident that he goes far beyond what is contained in the Bible on the afterlife, (which contains remarkably little), and that he can do so because of his personal experience.  The manual does not make the connection between his knowledge and to what happened to him at Winter Quarters, but that, I think is the best explanation.  See the account here:

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/097-86.pdf 

I LOVE that story, of Brigham's "dream" encounter with Joseph Smith!  It is part of what I consider to be "scripture" (and moreso than many things which are officially labelled such), though obviously it has not been canonized. 

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Many years ago I wrote an essay that demonstrates that Alma's conversion was comparable to modern Near Death Experience accounts. And Alma, it happens, provides the most detailed reports of the afterlife.  He also provides the accounts by Lamoni, the Queen, and Lamoni's father.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol2/iss1/2/ 

Yes I made the connection between those accounts (and some of Paul's allusions) and near-death experiences too.  Not that this is the main point, but I find it hard to envision Joseph Smith "manufacturing" so many now-known aspects of the near-death experience in the late 1820's.

I downloaded your paper - looking forward to reading it!

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

One of the interesting things about Raymond Moody's Life after Life book is that it was preceeded by Duane Crowther's collection of LDS NDE accounts, Life Everlasting.  Among other things, it includes several accounts, from Joseph Smith's vision of Alvin, to many more up to the time of his writing.  Moody soon discovered how neatly LDS teachings and reports fit with his discoveries.  His book The Light Beyond cites the LDS as the most prominent western faith to accept NDE accounts.  He cites "Mormon Leaders" but if you check the accounts he provides, it turns out to be Brigham Young.  Moody tells the story of Jedediah Grant's NDE, as reported by Heber C. Kimball in conference, but leaves out Grant's most telling remark, "Why it was just as Brigham has told us many times."

I knew Moody had a positive impression of the LDS church in this context, but did not realize that Duane Crowther's book preceded his.  I haven't read Crowther.

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

This is a video of Raymond Moody talking with an interviewer about NDEs and containing the reports of six different experiencers, one of whom tried to commit suicide.  I have seen several different videos on the topic and this is by far the my favorite.

The video looks familiar so I probably watched it years ago, but will do so again. Thanks for your "this is by far my favorite" comment, as given your research background in the subject, your opinion has weight (to me).

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

One of the key aspects of NDE accounts on experiencers is that those who have them report that they no longer fear death.  It also turns out that just reading and listening to NDE accounts conveys the same benefits as the actual experience.

I agree, there is quite a bit we can learn from near-death experiencers.  For instance, the Golden Rule seems to be a very real thing:

NDE Researcher Kenneth Ring: The Golden Rule Dramatically Illustrated - YouTube

The implications of the part I bolded in quoting you above are staggering:

We don't need to have our own near-death experience; we can get the same benefits vicariously if we so choose. 

5 hours ago, Fether said:

This takes a bit of a detour, but since we are talking about whether our religious allegiance matters in the grand scheme of things, I personally believe it doesn’t. Everywhere I read, it appears that what really matters is how much we act on the light we are given (whether that is a little or a lot).

The impression I get is that the First and Second Great Commandments, the Golden Rule, and practicing complete forgiveness matter a great deal, though near-death experiencers usually don't relay what they were shown and taught in terms of "commandments". 

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

"strait is the way and narrow the gate "  seems to refute the " all roads lead to Rome " idea.

Perhaps in order to actually reach "Rome" a given individual's road must at some point include the straight way and the narrow gate, even if such is not apparent from here... and it seems to me that LDS teachings envision this.   

Edited by manol
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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe that at all.
It's got nothing to do with "allegiance".  It's about obedience to God's laws.
Nobody is getting exalted without an endowment, whether live or proxy.

Yes… but EVERYONE is going to be endowed. Yes, the ordinances are required, but there is no concern about someone not getting endowed.

As far as we are concerned, we need to live true to whatever light we are given and be seeking more. Those will be the ones exalted.

Edited by Fether
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I'll offer three quotes that articulate my thoughts on near-death experiences. The neurophysiologist Cristof Koach said in Scientific American

"I accept the reality of these intensely felt experiences. They are as authentic as any other subjective feeling or perception. As a scientist, however, I operate under the hypothesis that all our thoughts, memories, percepts and experiences are an ineluctable consequence of the natural causal powers of our brain rather than of any supernatural ones. That premise has served science and its handmaiden, technology, extremely well over the past few centuries. Unless there is extraordinary, compelling, objective evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to abandon this assumption."

The physicist and philosopher Sean Carroll takes it one step further. For him, the idea that all of our thoughts and feelings arise from the brain isn't a mere hypothesis--it is scientific fact on par with the theory of gravity. He claims:

"The Core Theory of contemporary physics describes the atoms and forces that constitute our brains and bodies in exquisite detail, in terms of a rigid and unforgiving set of formal equations that leaves no wiggle room for intervention by nonmaterial influence, The way we talk about immaterial souls, meanwhile, has not risen to that level of sophistication. To imagine that the soul pushes around the electron and protons and neutrons in our bodies in a way that we haven’t yet detected is certainly conceivable, but it implies that modern physics is profoundly wrong in a way that has so far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed." 

Elsewhere he says:

"If this package of claims – physicalism, EFT, Core Theory – is correct, it has a number of immediate implications. There is no life after death, as the information in a person’s mind is encoded in the physical configuration of atoms in their body, and there is no physical mechanism for that information to be carried away after death. The location of planets and stars on the day of your birth has no effect on who you become later in life, as there are no relevant forces that can extend over astrophysical distances. And the problems of consciousness, whether “easy” or “hard,” must ultimately be answered in terms of processes that are compatible with this underlying theory."

Edited by Analytics
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4 hours ago, Analytics said:

I'll offer three quotes that articulate my thoughts on near-death experiences. The neurophysiologist Cristof Koach said in Scientific American

"I accept the reality of these intensely felt experiences. They are as authentic as any other subjective feeling or perception. As a scientist, however, I operate under the hypothesis that all our thoughts, memories, percepts and experiences are an ineluctable consequence of the natural causal powers of our brain rather than of any supernatural ones. That premise has served science and its handmaiden, technology, extremely well over the past few centuries. Unless there is extraordinary, compelling, objective evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to abandon this assumption."

The physicist and philosopher Sean Carroll takes it one step further. For him, the idea that all of our thoughts and feelings arise from the brain isn't a mere hypothesis--it is scientific fact on par with the theory of gravity. He claims:

"The Core Theory of contemporary physics describes the atoms and forces that constitute our brains and bodies in exquisite detail, in terms of a rigid and unforgiving set of formal equations that leaves no wiggle room for intervention by nonmaterial influence, The way we talk about immaterial souls, meanwhile, has not risen to that level of sophistication. To imagine that the soul pushes around the electron and protons and neutrons in our bodies in a way that we haven’t yet detected is certainly conceivable, but it implies that modern physics is profoundly wrong in a way that has so far eluded every controlled experiment ever performed." 

Elsewhere he says:

"If this package of claims – physicalism, EFT, Core Theory – is correct, it has a number of immediate implications. There is no life after death, as the information in a person’s mind is encoded in the physical configuration of atoms in their body, and there is no physical mechanism for that information to be carried away after death. The location of planets and stars on the day of your birth has no effect on who you become later in life, as there are no relevant forces that can extend over astrophysical distances. And the problems of consciousness, whether “easy” or “hard,” must ultimately be answered in terms of processes that are compatible with this underlying theory."

Thank you for taking the time to provide scholarly opinions supporting your position.  Reasoning things out is very good and often serves us well, but conducting actual analytic studies of a given phenomenon is even better.  I hope you don't mind a few quotes citing actual studies which contradict the reasoning-based conclusions of the scholars cited in your post:

"A common characteristic of near-death experiences is an out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience (OBE) is the apparent separation of consciousness from the body. About 45% of near-death experiencers report OBEs which involves them seeing and often hearing ongoing earthly events from a perspective that is apart, and usually above, their physical bodies. Following cardiac arrest, NDErs may see, and later accurately describe, their own resuscitation.

"The first prospective study of the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences was by Dr. Michael Sabom. This study investigated a group of patients who had cardiac arrests with NDEs that included OBEs, and compared them with a control group of patients who experienced cardiac crises but did not have NDEs. Both groups of patients were asked to describe their own resuscitation as best they could. Sabom found that the group of NDE patients were much more accurate than the control group in describing their own resuscitations." - Jeffrey Long MD, Journal of the Missouri State Medical Association, Volume 111(5)

Here's a link to the paper:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

"Two large retrospective studies investigated the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences. The first was by Dr. Janice Holden. Dr. Holden reviewed NDEs with OBEs in all previously published scholarly articles and books, and found 89 case reports. Of the case reports reviewed, 92% were considered to be completely accurate with no inaccuracy whatsoever when the OBE observations were later investigated.

"Another large retrospective investigation of near-death experiences that included out-of-body observations was recently published. This study was a review of 617 NDEs that were sequentially shared on the NDERF website. Of these NDEs, there were 287 NDEs that had OBEs with sufficient information to allow objective determination of the reality of their descriptions of their observations during the OBEs. Review of the 287 OBEs found that 280 (97.6%) of the OBE descriptions were entirely realistic and lacked any content that seemed unreal...

"The high percentage of accurate out-of-body observations during near-death experiences does not seem explainable by any possible physical brain function as it is currently known." - Jeffrey Long MD, same paper (emphasis mine)

"There have been a few case reports of near-death experiences in the blind. The largest study of this was by Dr. Kenneth Ring...  There were 14 individuals who were blind from birth in this study, and nine of them described vision during their experiences. This investigation presented case reports of those born totally blind that described NDEs that were highly visual with content consistent with typical NDEs."  Jeffrey Long MD, same paper

I'm not expecting you to accept the studies cited in Dr. Long's paper as "proof", but I am asking you to not reach a conclusion based on reasoning alone which ignores multiple actual analyses of the available relevant data. 

Edited by manol
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2 hours ago, Fether said:

Yes… but EVERYONE is going to be endowed. Yes, the ordinances are required, but there is no concern about someone not getting endowed.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Fether said:

As far as we are concerned, we need to live true to whatever light we are given and be seeking more. Those will be the ones exalted.

Agreed.  The Parable of the Talents is arguably about actively seeking further treasures of light and knowledge versus squatting protectively on that which we have been given. 

Edited by manol
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3 hours ago, manol said:

 

Joseph also taught this:

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

IF this teaching is literally correct, THEN we may reasonably expect to find considerably more actual knowledge of heaven among near-death experiencers than among any religious or scholarly body. 

Also if and when "new wine" comes along, it may not fit neatly into old paradigms. 

Likewise nobody receives their diploma without presenting proper ID, BUT that formality is not "what matters most" in context.

There's a HUGE difference between knowing more and knowing different.
When there's things in NDEs that aren't previously known I take them with a grain of salt.  When there's things in NDEs that contradict revelation I usually doubt their validity.

For example, there are NDEs where people see numerous winged angels.  Not true.

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

There's a HUGE difference between knowing more and knowing different.
When there's things in NDEs that aren't previously known I take them with a grain of salt.  When there's things in NDEs that contradict revelation I usually doubt their validity.

For example, there are NDEs where people see numerous winged angels.  Not true.

Agreed, angels probably don't have wings, though they have been described as having them in the Bible so presumably there is sometimes something going on which can be described as "wings". 

What do you think about the take-home messages in near-death experiences, for instance the emphasis on unconditional love and how we treat one another? 

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3 minutes ago, manol said:

Agreed, angels probably don't have wings, though they have been described as having them in the Bible so presumably there is sometimes something going on which can be described as "wings". 

What do you think about the take-home messages in near-death experiences, for instance the emphasis on unconditional love and how we treat one another? 

Love conquers all!

I did listen to part of one of the YouTube's shared, and that was what was most important in one of the NDE's I watched.

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9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I think I mentioned this book before on another thread but...

"The Big Book of near death experiences , by p.m.h.Atwater" , reviews experiences of many types and also looks at several alternative theories about how they happen. 

I read one of her earlier books, and that was were I got a "feel" for the kinds of characteristics NDE-ers exhibit, and which I recognized in my next-door neighbor (as mentioned in the third post of this thread).

For anyone interested, PMH Atwater is a three-time near death experiencer and voracious investigator whose research includes in-depth interviews with over four thousand near-death experiencers.

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Love conquers all!

I think you are literally correct. 

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I did listen to part of one of the YouTube's shared, and that was what was most important in one of the NDE's I watched.

And how did you feel when doing so? 

@Kevin Christensen makes a very interesting and imo relevant observation in his post upthread:

14 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

... just reading and listening to NDE accounts conveys the same benefits as the actual experience.

In other words, ordinary folk like you and me can reap the same benefits (though probably not as intensely) as actual near-death experiencers by vicariously spending time "in their shoes" through reading or listening to their words.  How cool is that??

Edited by manol
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18 hours ago, manol said:

I agree with Brigham's paradigm!  I think that "locality" in the next world is not so much a matter of "geography", as of energy state.

Nonetheless, the spirit material will exist in reality, space, and time. We can't exclude the idea of extra dimensions. We can, however, exclude the idea of spirit matter just being a different frequency and/or energy state. That doesn't work on many levels.

There are quite a few puzzles to work out. One is the relationship between our mind and memory. It seems that all my earthly experience is recorded in my brain and yet, when I lose access to that brain (e.g. through death) I still have the memories. Is it that the memories are simply copied to the spirit body's brain? Maybe, but it also seems somewhat inefficient. A curious alternative has been proposed where the brain is more of a "connection" to our mind which is... elsewhere. The idea dovetails nicely with most interpretations of LDS theology, but there are still lots of questions that remain.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/your-brain-is-not-a-computer-it-is-a-transducer

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8 hours ago, manol said:

In other words, ordinary folk like you and me can reap the same benefits (though probably not as intensely) as actual near-death experiencers by vicariously spending time "in their shoes" through reading or listening to their words.  How cool is that??

Given the fundamentally transformative nature that some experience after a deep NDE, "not as intensely" may be an gross understatement. :)

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In the 1970's, our belief in NDE's seemed universal. We also believed that thing where dying people lost measurable weight.  And we believed in biorhythms, cigar shaped UFOs, astrology and streaking. We were a very trusting people.

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1 hour ago, Chum said:

In the 1970's, our belief in NDE's seemed universal. We also believed that thing where dying people lost measurable weight.  And we believed in biorhythms, cigar shaped UFOs, astrology and streaking. We were a very trusting people.

Did you see my reply to Analytics above?  If so, you'd have to dismiss a fair amount of peer-reviewed data and analysis to maintain your position, which of course you are free to do. 

Edited by manol
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13 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Waddayamean? I'm prequalifying any potential skepticism I may have. Also, believing in that stuff was fun.

Since then, the most substantive discrediting I recall involved isolating facets of NDE's and finding that non-spiritual people didn't find them spiritual. eg: Dark here, light there was just that for people w/o our religious conditioning.

Past that, I recall reading that there were physical/chemical brain processes that could bring similar experiences and that similar processes were seen approaching death.

From my perspective, ~100% of post death info isn't available to us. NDE's are too small a percentage to offset that ~100%. Together with how unsettled our understanding is, I find I'm fairly meh about them.

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13 minutes ago, manol said:

Did you see my reply to Analytics above?  If so, you'd have to dismiss a fair amount of peer-reviewed data and analysis to maintain your position, which of course you are free to do. 

I'm fairly sure whatever I see, I'll interpret thru the lenses I have.

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19 hours ago, manol said:

...I'm not expecting you to accept the studies cited in Dr. Long's paper as "proof", but I am asking you to not reach a conclusion based on reasoning alone which ignores multiple actual analyses of the available relevant data. 

Thanks, manol. This is a fascinating subject. On the one hand, fields such as evolutionary biology, neuroscience, and quantum field theory are converging on the idea that there simply isn't and can't be a "spirit" that is capable of seeing without physical eyes, hearing without ears, and thinking without a brain. I don't particularly like that conclusion. It's just that that is what the harder sciences are pointing to with a surprising degree of certainty.

But on the other hand, the hard problem of consciousness persists, and people do have perceptions of having consciousness while being outside of the body. It seems to me that NDE enthusiasts need to either:

1- Come up with a plausible hypothesis of what "spirits" are and how they interface with physical bodies, or:

2- Present evidence for the literally-out-of-body interpretation of NDEs that is strong enough to dislodge our belief in the scientific theories (e.g. quantum field theory) that unambiguously state that such things are impossible.

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2 hours ago, Analytics said:

Thanks, manol. This is a fascinating subject. On the one hand, fields such as evolutionary biology, neuroscience, and quantum field theory are converging on the idea that there simply isn't and can't be a "spirit" that is capable of seeing without physical eyes, hearing without ears, and thinking without a brain. I don't particularly like that conclusion. It's just that that is what the harder sciences are pointing to with a surprising degree of certainty.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply.

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

But on the other hand, the hard problem of consciousness persists, and people do have perceptions of having consciousness while being outside of the body. It seems to me that NDE enthusiasts need to either:

1- Come up with a plausible hypothesis of what "spirits" are and how they interface with physical bodies, or:

I definitely understand the frustration of not having a plausible hypothesis, based on known physical science, that offers a reasonable explanation for  near-death-experience phenomena.  For now at least, to the best of my knowledge that's where it stands.

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

2- Present evidence for the literally-out-of-body interpretation of NDEs that is strong enough to dislodge our belief in the scientific theories (e.g. quantum field theory) that unambiguously state that such things are impossible.

My understanding is that right now we have different sets of physical laws for different environments.  Quantum field theory is applicable at very small scales, but generally not at "normal" (macroscopic?) scales.  Likewise theories which are applicable at "normal" scales are ineffective for very small scales.  Perhaps there is a third environment, accessed during near-death experiences, which we do not currently know enough about to develop scientific theories for, and about which it would be premature to assume that either quantum field theory or normal-scale theories are applicable.  

From the article in Discover Magazine that Nofear linked to:

"... modern physicists do take the idea of parallel universes seriously. They debate the details, but they can hardly ignore the fact that the mathematics of at least three of the grand theories at the core of modern physics — inflation theory, quantum theory, and string theory — predict the existence of alternate universes. Some physicists even believe that signals can leak between the universes and that the existence of parallel universes can be confirmed through measurements or experiments.... parallel universes are not wispy, physics-free spiritual entities; according to many mainstream physicists, they are just non-obvious companions of the material universe in which we happen to live."

Just as discoveries on the quantum scale did not "dislodge" normal-scale theories but DID limit their scope, perhaps future discoveries about this hypothetical third (NDE-accessed) environment will not "dislodge" our belief in our current scientific theories, but rather will limit their scope. 

(There may be some correspondences between how things work here and how they work "there".  For instance, some near-death experiencers report that thought is creative "there" - that you can think of something with intention and it "materializes".  Thought can arguably ALSO be creative here, but it takes a lot of time and effort to go from thought/intention to completion of the creation process.  In my day job I'm working on developing a new product, and it takes a lot of time and effort for my initial THOUGHT to eventually "materialize" as this object, with every single step of that physical-world creation process being subject to the laws described by "normal-scale" scientific theories.  If thought literally can be creative "there", I assume there would be "there-applicable" "physical" laws in play, which could presumably be described by "there-applicable" scientific theories.)   

Edited by manol
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1 hour ago, Chum said:

I'm fairly sure whatever I see, I'll interpret thru the lenses I have.

It sounds like you recognize that your confirmation bias is strong, and imo that's a good thing to be aware of.  I'm sure I tend to overlook mine!

However just in case your faith in your lenses wavers just a little bit, here is the post I was referring to so that you don't even have to scroll up to find it:

21 hours ago, manol said:

Thank you for taking the time to provide scholarly opinions supporting your position.  Reasoning things out is very good and often serves us well, but conducting actual analytic studies of a given phenomenon is even better.  I hope you don't mind a few quotes citing actual studies which contradict the reasoning-based conclusions of the scholars cited in your post:

"A common characteristic of near-death experiences is an out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience (OBE) is the apparent separation of consciousness from the body. About 45% of near-death experiencers report OBEs which involves them seeing and often hearing ongoing earthly events from a perspective that is apart, and usually above, their physical bodies. Following cardiac arrest, NDErs may see, and later accurately describe, their own resuscitation.

"The first prospective study of the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences was by Dr. Michael Sabom. This study investigated a group of patients who had cardiac arrests with NDEs that included OBEs, and compared them with a control group of patients who experienced cardiac crises but did not have NDEs. Both groups of patients were asked to describe their own resuscitation as best they could. Sabom found that the group of NDE patients were much more accurate than the control group in describing their own resuscitations." - Jeffrey Long MD, Journal of the Missouri State Medical Association, Volume 111(5)

Here's a link to the paper:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/

"Two large retrospective studies investigated the accuracy of out-of-body observations during near-death experiences. The first was by Dr. Janice Holden. Dr. Holden reviewed NDEs with OBEs in all previously published scholarly articles and books, and found 89 case reports. Of the case reports reviewed, 92% were considered to be completely accurate with no inaccuracy whatsoever when the OBE observations were later investigated.

"Another large retrospective investigation of near-death experiences that included out-of-body observations was recently published. This study was a review of 617 NDEs that were sequentially shared on the NDERF website. Of these NDEs, there were 287 NDEs that had OBEs with sufficient information to allow objective determination of the reality of their descriptions of their observations during the OBEs. Review of the 287 OBEs found that 280 (97.6%) of the OBE descriptions were entirely realistic and lacked any content that seemed unreal...

"The high percentage of accurate out-of-body observations during near-death experiences does not seem explainable by any possible physical brain function as it is currently known." - Jeffrey Long MD, same paper (emphasis mine)

"There have been a few case reports of near-death experiences in the blind. The largest study of this was by Dr. Kenneth Ring...  There were 14 individuals who were blind from birth in this study, and nine of them described vision during their experiences. This investigation presented case reports of those born totally blind that described NDEs that were highly visual with content consistent with typical NDEs."  Jeffrey Long MD, same paper

I'm not expecting you to accept the studies cited in Dr. Long's paper as "proof", but I am asking you to not reach a conclusion based on reasoning alone which ignores multiple actual analyses of the available relevant data. 

Edited by manol
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3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Nonetheless, the spirit material will exist in reality, space, and time. We can't exclude the idea of extra dimensions. We can, however, exclude the idea of spirit matter just being a different frequency and/or energy state. That doesn't work on many levels.

There are quite a few puzzles to work out. One is the relationship between our mind and memory. It seems that all my earthly experience is recorded in my brain and yet, when I lose access to that brain (e.g. through death) I still have the memories. Is it that the memories are simply copied to the spirit body's brain? Maybe, but it also seems somewhat inefficient. A curious alternative has been proposed where the brain is more of a "connection" to our mind which is... elsewhere. The idea dovetails nicely with most interpretations of LDS theology, but there are still lots of questions that remain.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/your-brain-is-not-a-computer-it-is-a-transducer

Fun thread…

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On 6/23/2022 at 2:58 PM, strappinglad said:

"The Big Book of near death experiences , by p.m.h.Atwater" , reviews experiences of many types and also looks at several alternative theories about how they happen

The part I bolded is something I want to learn about... do you recall more or less what she had to say?  I just ordered the book, but I'm interested in whatever stood out to you.

Thanks!

Edited by manol
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9 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

It's been a while since I read it. I will check it out and get back to you. 

I'm NOT trying to give you homework!  If there was something that stood out in your memory that's one thing, but I'm not asking you to dig up the book and research it for me!  Like I said, I have a copy on order.  So THANK YOU VERY MUCH, but please don't use your time for that. 

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