california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Rivers said: And that was done for comedic purposes. The kiss in Lightyear is done for the purpose of normalization. There is an agenda behind it. Whether you agree or disagree with that agenda is up to you. Do you believe gay people actually exist? Do you believe they actually kiss? Is that not normal for a gay person? Maybe the agenda is simply that gay people are part of this world too. They are human. They hold hands. They kiss. They are attracted to each other. They kiss. wow how crazy is that? Is that such a scary thought for you? If you have a problem with that, then that is solely your problem. Forcing your personal religious beliefs on others isn't really an option you have. Pretending it is not normal doesn't make it abnormal. So yeah. I hate to break it to you, but two gay people kissing is already normalized. 3 Link to comment
california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: I was hugged by a gay person. Does this mean I have had gay hugs? I have also kissed gay people. Are those all gay kisses? So many questions. yeah. Evidently that is all it takes to make you gay in some peoples minds. If I kiss a woman, does that make me straight? As strange as that idea sounds, it is a teaching the Church used to believe in. Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Obehave said: These "people" are animated characters, though, right? What gives you the idea that those characters are gay? I don't know, maybe these days some animated characters are gay, I just don't know how you would be so sure. Watch the scene https://youtu.be/A9KNkkOhs30 Edited June 21, 2022 by Fether 2 Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: I was hugged by a gay person. Does this mean I have had gay hugs? I have also kissed gay people. Are those all gay kisses? So many questions. Nobody is confused by this. Any showing of romantic affection to someone of the same sex is a homosexual act (or a “gay” act if you must). Link to comment
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, Fether said: Watch the scene https://youtu.be/A9KNkkOhs30 That’s got to be one of the most innocuous kisses I’ve ever seen! 2 Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Obehave said: Eh, maybe gay, maybe not gay. I've learned not to assume that when 2 women kiss and hug each other like that it doesn't necessarily mean they are gay. Could be, though. And if they are then Eeeewwww!!! I don’t know why you are fighting this. This is am open fact people of all political leanings and beliefs are talking about. https://variety.com/2022/film/news/pixar-lightyear-same-sex-kiss-1235209179/amp/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/comics/2022/06/17/lightyear-same-sex-couple-kiss/ https://fortune.com/2022/06/16/disney-lightyear-gay-kiss-banned-uae-bob-chapek/amp/ I can find 1,000 more links like these to send you. Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: That’s got to be one of the most innocuous kisses I’ve ever seen! Innocuous???? More like obscene, horrifying, and grossly pornographic Link to comment
SeekingUnderstanding Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, Fether said: Innocuous???? More like obscene, horrifying, and grossly pornographic I think you are joking, but tone is hard in text. So I’m going to assume you are joking. 1 Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, Obehave said: My perspective is based on my own experiences including some experiences seeing some people of the same sex kiss and hug each other like (in your Lightyear snippet) while not being gay. I did allow for the possibility. And if they are I still say it is Eeeewwww!!! (and if they are I suppose it would need to be backed up by some amount of actual proof that they are) This is Chris Evans, the person that voices Buzz Lightyear, and his opinion on the whole thing https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1536986869728038912?s=20&t=dbUVdQHiDMG0RQDu4NBUCw 1 Link to comment
Fether Posted June 21, 2022 Author Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: I think you are joking, but tone is hard in text. So I’m going to assume you are joking. I am x) 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 34 minutes ago, Obehave said: Eh, maybe gay, maybe not gay. I've learned not to assume that when 2 women kiss and hug each other like that it doesn't necessarily mean they are gay. Could be, though. And if they are then Eeeewwww!!! Oh dear. 🥺 Link to comment
bluebell Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Perhaps a definitional issue? Per wiki: “Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender.” Emphasis mine. My parents have racist attitudes. My mom once described someone’s black adopted child as “the best they could get”. And yet they have black friends. They even took a blank woman on a multi-week trip with them. Do they hate black people? No. Do they have some racist attitudes? Yes! It could be a definitional issue, but then we have the problem of everyone defining words in unique ways and none of us able to actually communicate with each other. And while theoretically "homophobic" probably has a lot of nuanced interpretations and definitions, when someone accuses another person of being homophobic in social media, I don't think they typically mean it in a nuanced "you aren't homophobic but you have homophobic attitudes" kind of way. They usually mean it as a moral judgment that equates not supporting everything and anything connected to lgtbq 100% = bad person. No nuance required. Speaking to the specific conversation at hand, I agree that there is nuance in homophobia and homophobic attitudes (and probably lots of different shades of gray), but again, we are talking about someone labeling another person as homophobic because they don't want to present SS relationships in an equal light to heterosexual ones to their young children. There really isn't any nuance in them choosing to use the label "homophobic". My friend on social media (who prompted my original question) stated that if you won't watch Lightyear because of a gay kiss then you are homophobic. Full stop. No other information about you required. Quote I see we are talking past each other on a definitional issue (for which I apologize). I love my siblings and their families, but I am definitely strongly anti dogmatic religion and I think that it’s influence is negatively impacting their children. Despite this we try to have the closest relationship we can. That doesn’t mean that I don’t have a bias against organized religion though. Of course, and hopefully they don't label you on social media as the religious equivalent of "homophobic" because of your beliefs and biases. Equating anti-religious beliefs alone to prejudice against and dislike of all religious people makes no rational sense to me. I see the homophobic if you don't support everything lgtbq the same way. 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 33 minutes ago, Obehave said: I did allow for the possibility. And if they are I still say it is Eeeewwww!!! (and if they are I suppose it would need to be backed up by some amount of actual proof that they are) I know what you mean. When I see a man and a woman kiss, I am so grossed out. Eeeeewwwww!!!!! even more than you are. (see the extra !!!! as proof). How can normal people put something like a man and a woman kissing right in front of everyone on the big screen for all to see. They obviously can not love the person of the opposite sex like I love my partner. Link to comment
california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: My friend on social media (who prompted my original question) stated that if you won't watch Lightyear because of a gay kiss then you are homophobic. Full stop. No other information about you required. I am going to throw my two cents in here. I think for a lot of people if you can not even acknowledge that a gay couple could love their companion every bit as much as you love your husband then you are being homophobic. Because you are denying something that is really a reality. Most people should be able to accept that gay people can love someone just as much as straight people and be willing to accept that they show that love through a kiss. Denying that gay people should ever kiss is homophobic. Feeling that it is against their religious beliefs is a totally different issue and should fall in the same classification as you seeing a non-member drink a cup of coffee or smoke a cigarette. You don't boycott films or prohibit your children from watching a film that have a person having a cup of coffee. You shouldn't prohibit your children from seeing a gay couple kiss. Perhaps there needs to be a discussion with them about it being against your religious beliefs. But sending a message that gay couples that don't share your religious beliefs should never kiss is homophobic. That is at least how I see the difference between being homophobic and someone just not sharing the same religious belief. Part of religion should be accepting that not everyone shares the same religious beliefs. Teaching children that not everyone shares the same religious beliefs should be a part of teaching children in my opinion. Edited June 21, 2022 by california boy 1 Link to comment
MustardSeed Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Definition of homophobia is not the same as arachnophobia. Maybe getting on the same page with definitions would help. 1 Link to comment
california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Obehave said: You seem to have a different idea of what it means to be homophobic than I do. I think of a phobia as a fear, and I do not fear homosexual people or what homosexual people may do with each other. I simply don't approve of that type of sexual behavior, and I'm not afraid to share what I think about it. Homophobia is not a fear of gay people. Here is the definition. Quote Homophobia Definitions Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more noun dislike of or prejudice against gay people. So maybe bigotry is a better word to use. Quote Definitions Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more noun obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. "the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry" If you have a problem with gay people being shown in any romantic way, then yeah you are homophobic and a bigot. If you simply have a religious belief that prevents you from entering into that kind of relationship, then you are neither. Edited June 21, 2022 by california boy Link to comment
bluebell Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, california boy said: I am going to throw my two cents in here. I think for a lot of people if you can not even acknowledge that a gay couple could love their companion every bit as much as you love your husband then you are being homophobic. That's probably a reasonable assertion. But it requires a lot of ignorant assumptions to equate someone's decision not to present SS relationships to small children with that person not being able to recognize the bolded above. There could be multiple reasons they've made that choice and none of them HAVE to involve the bolded. Quote Because you are denying something that is really a reality. Most people should be able to accept that gay people can love someone just as much as straight people and be willing to accept that they show that love through a kiss. Denying that gay people should ever kiss is homophobic. This is where we part ways. Because, in my opinion, not wanting to present certain things to small children does not--in and of itself--deny the reality of those things. I don't present premarital sex to my small children, though I know it exists. I don't present sex at all to my kids actually, though I know it exists and I even believe it can be very much God-given, healthy, and important. I wouldn't let my small kids watch someone give birth (like, actually see the baby come out of the vagina) even though I obviously find birth amazing and believe in it's reality. I wouldn't let my small kids watch a Disney movie that presented drinking or smoking in a positive light because of my personal beliefs, even though I go out of my way to teach them that people who drink and smoke are not bad people and that their family members that do those things are still amazing and we love them--and God loves them--just as much as we would if they didn't. Quote Feeling that it is against their religious beliefs is a totally different issue and should fall in the same classification as you seeing a non-member drink a cup of coffee or smoke a cigarette. You don't boycott films or prohibit your children from watching a film that have a person having a cup of coffee. Honestly--and completely ignoring your personal requirements of what I should do as a parent--it depends. As I said above, I wouldn't let my small kids watch a Disney movie that portrayed drinking alcohol in a positive light. Coffee and tea, it probably wouldn't be a problem because the kids wouldn't even know what was being drunk. Now, if the Disney movie had an agenda to teach my kids that anyone who didn't believe that God wants you to drink coffee and tea is wrong, then you bet I wouldn't let them watch that when they were little. The agenda of the movie makes a huge difference in how parents are going to respond to what's in it. Quote You shouldn't prohibit your children from seeing a gay couple kiss. I know there are a lot of people who believe this (as I said previously, I don't really have a problem with it), but who are you (or anyone else) to say what another parent should do? I would guess that there are a lot of things that YOU do (or did) as a parent that I would not agree with and would believe you shouldn't do/have done. Does that matter to you? Does that give you even a millisecond of pause on whether or not you were/are a good parent? I'm guessing it doesn't (and it shouldn't). My opinion on your parenting matters as much as your opinion of mine does. Quote Perhaps there needs to be a discussion with them about it being against your religious beliefs. But sending a message that gay couples that don't share your religious beliefs should never kiss is homophobic. Ok. I think that automatically assuming that this is the message a parent is sending is problematic. It's based on conjecture. Quote That is at least how I see the difference between being homophobic and someone just not sharing the same religious belief. Part of religion should be accepting that not everyone shares the same religious beliefs. Teaching children that not everyone shares the same religious beliefs should be a part of teaching children in my opinion. On this we completely agree with each other. Edited June 21, 2022 by bluebell 2 Link to comment
filovirus Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 36 minutes ago, california boy said: Feeling that it is against their religious beliefs is a totally different issue and should fall in the same classification as you seeing a non-member drink a cup of coffee or smoke a cigarette. You don't boycott films or prohibit your children from watching a film that have a person having a cup of coffee. You shouldn't prohibit your children from seeing a gay couple kiss. Perhaps there needs to be a discussion with them about it being against your religious beliefs. But sending a message that gay couples that don't share your religious beliefs should never kiss is homophobic. I don't let my children watch R rated movies. Is this considered a boycott in your opinion? The reasons for not wanting them to watch R rated movies varies, but often times it is because of sexual situations portrayed in the film. Having someone drink a cup of coffee is drastically different than the sexual scenes depicted. Link to comment
longview Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 The use of the term "homophobia" was weaponized for the purpose of shaming people that express their reluctance to celebrate the lifestyle. @california boyuse of the oxford definition feels more like propaganda than a legitimate description of a segment of the population that are less than enthusiastic about various aspects of the lifestyle. As some would say, people can love the sinner but hate the sin. It is NOT always about hate. Joining "homo" with "phobia" has the effect of labeling people as being extremely irrational. This is outrageously unfair to people who have different perspectives. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Obehave said: It doesn't measure up to what someone can have with an opposite sex sexual partner. Based on my experiences with both I disrespectfully disagree. Link to comment
california boy Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Obehave said: Bigotry is an obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. I know that because I just looked up the definition of bigotry so I could copy and paste the definition for you. And no that does not apply to why I am attached to my belief, opinion, or faction on this, because I am not being obstinate or unreasonable on this issue. Loving someone of the same sex is all fine and dandy, and good, but having sexual relationships with same sex representatives is not good or for a good purpose. It may be pleasurable to both or more participants in the sexual act, but the fact that something feels good to the natural body doesn't make that thing a good thing. No children can ever come from it and if that same sex couple is committed to each other and nobody else sexually then none of those same sex sexual participants will ever commit to someone of the opposite sex that they could create their own children with. And that means they will never have their own family with children, even if somehow they are able to continue their relationship with each other forever. So that's why I think it is bad, and evil. It doesn't measure up to what someone can have with an opposite sex sexual partner. You do realize your statement is TOTALLY based on your membership to a particular group (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). And it is an unreasonable attachment to a belief that gay people should not love someone of their own sex. Whether they can have children or not sexually is irrelevant. Lots of couples can't have children sexually. If you think gay couples are bad and evil because they can't have children sexually, but don't think that straight couples are bad and evil for not being able to have children, then it is an unreasonable prejudice. Tell me again why that doesn't fit the definition that you provided of a bigot? Seems like you tick every box the definition provides. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, filovirus said: I don't let my children watch R rated movies. Is this considered a boycott in your opinion? The reasons for not wanting them to watch R rated movies varies, but often times it is because of sexual situations portrayed in the film. Having someone drink a cup of coffee is drastically different than the sexual scenes depicted. If Disney were depicting animated gay sex I think the comparison here would have more merit. It is a kiss. If seeing a kiss is bad many parents are depraved exhibitionists in front of their kids all the time and we need to look into that. Edited June 21, 2022 by The Nehor Link to comment
Calm Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Obehave said: Eh, maybe gay, maybe not gay. I've learned not to assume that when 2 women kiss and hug each other like that it doesn't necessarily mean they are gay. Could be, though. And if they are then Eeeewwww!!! Are you serious about “eeewww” or just joking? Assuming the latter, but if the first would be useful to know for context. With Americans the body language in the clip where there is a slight leaning into and a cradling with the arm around the back does suggest Romance, but I was watching a French show the other day with two women who knew each other for years, best friends and the body language at times yelled romance to me, but there is nothing of that in the actual relationship. Interpretation is very culturally determined. Edited June 22, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
california boy Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 1 hour ago, bluebell said: That's probably a reasonable assertion. But it requires a lot of ignorant assumptions to equate someone's decision not to present SS relationships to small children with that person not being able to recognize the bolded above. There could be multiple reasons they've made that choice and none of them HAVE to involve the bolded. This is where we part ways. Because, in my opinion, not wanting to present certain things to small children does not--in and of itself--deny the reality of those things. I don't present premarital sex to my small children, though I know it exists. I don't present sex at all to my kids actually, though I know it exists and I even believe it can be very much God-given, healthy, and important. I wouldn't let my small kids watch someone give birth (like, actually see the baby come out of the vagina) even though I obviously find birth amazing and believe in it's reality. I wouldn't let my small kids watch a Disney movie that presented drinking or smoking in a positive light because of my personal beliefs, even though I go out of my way to teach them that people who drink and smoke are not bad people and that their family members that do those things are still amazing and we love them--and God loves them--just as much as we would if they didn't. Honestly--and completely ignoring your personal requirements of what I should do as a parent--it depends. As I said above, I wouldn't let my small kids watch a Disney movie that portrayed drinking alcohol in a positive light. Coffee and tea, it probably wouldn't be a problem because the kids wouldn't even know what was being drunk. Now, if the Disney movie had an agenda to teach my kids that anyone who didn't believe that God wants you to drink coffee and tea is wrong, then you bet I wouldn't let them watch that when they were little. The agenda of the movie makes a huge difference in how parents are going to respond to what's in it. I know there are a lot of people who believe this (as I said previously, I don't really have a problem with it), but who are you (or anyone else) to say what another parent should do? I would guess that there are a lot of things that YOU do (or did) as a parent that I would not agree with and would believe you shouldn't do/have done. Does that matter to you? Does that give you even a millisecond of pause on whether or not you were/are a good parent? I'm guessing it doesn't (and it shouldn't). My opinion on your parenting matters as much as your opinion of mine does. Ok. I think that automatically assuming that this is the message a parent is sending is problematic. It's based on conjecture. On this we completely agree with each other. I agree that I should not tell you how to raise your children. That of course is totally up to you. And I apologize if I came off that way. I was talking more in the general sense than you specifically. Of course age appropriate viewing is something parents weigh. But I didn't police every single thing my children watched on tv, in the movies, on the streets, at their schools etc. (They grew up when daily news programs discussed the oral sex of Bill Clinton.). I couldn't. No parent can. I am not going to tell you how to raise your children. But I would ask you to seriously consider whether shielding children from a kiss by a same sex couple in a cartoon movie that if you blink you would miss it is all that important. That kind of helicoptering rarely turns out well. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Definition of homophobia is not the same as arachnophobia. Maybe getting on the same page with definitions would help. Which really bugs me. Wish there was a different word for homophobia, but I suspect many people (not all or even most) who use it like that it has the history of labeling a mental disorder (phobias are anxiety disorders) as it adds an extra layer of insult even if this is the one phobia that isn’t technically a phobia now because it has entered general use as labeling a prejudice instead. Edited June 22, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
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