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Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey


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54 minutes ago, Calm said:

Warren Jeffs did not become a degenerate pervert because of persecution.  The isolation and the resulting control of Jeff’s was highly contributed to by persecution, but it was Jeff’s and others’ choices that took it to rape, etc, not the Church’s or the government.

Warren Jeffs did not become a degenerate pervert because of persecution, agreed.  That's entirely on him.  I am blaming nobody for the kind of man he is.

Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon had free reign and power to make those choices because the government and Church persecution led to the community being so completely isolated for over 50 years.
I am not putting Jeffs behavior at the foot of the Church or government at all.  I am putting the isolation of the community that allowed it at the foot of the government and Church - they sent that entire group into hiding and fear of the outside world.

In my opinion if Short Creek had been left alone to live their religion in the 1950s, perhaps a live and let live relationship with nearby communities like St. George, they may have become less of an isolated hotbed of abuse.

Edited by JLHPROF
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8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Warren Jeffs did not become a degenerate pervert because of persecution, agreed.  That's entirely on him.  I am blaming nobody for the kind of man he is.

Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon had free reign and power to make those choices because the government and Church persecution led to the community being so completely isolated for over 50 years.
I am not putting Jeffs behavior at the foot of the Church or government at all.  I am putting the isolation of the community that allowed it at the foot of the government and Church - they sent that entire group into hiding and fear of the outside world.

In my opinion if Short Creek had been left alone to live their religion in the 1950s, perhaps a live and let live relationship with nearby communities like St. George, they may have become less of an isolated hotbed of abuse.

It sounds like, before Warren, that the community wasn't as isolated as it became after he took power.

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6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:


The result was a completely withdrawn and isolated community that allowed evil like Jeffs free reign to implement restrictive policies and more abuse.
Imagine what might have happened if they'd have left them alone in the 1950s - they  might look a little more like the family on Sister Wives.

 

They were already headed in that direction pre-raid and they were less isolated and more disperse pre-warren...which is why it's hard to know how much less isolated they would have been and how much their practices would have stayed less extreme in what was already an extreme assertion (the spiritually essential nature of polygamy). The website @webbles gave several practices within the FLDS that increased the likelihood that a Warren Jeffs type man could move in. It created a structure over time that hyper-monopolized power within the sect...to the point that the church decided your family. And by church, it was really one man. This came about with massive shifts in their church structure....which likely made other changes and failed prophecies easier to swallow IMHO. If they were less separated, maybe there would have been more who peeled away from the church. But I doubt it. And some of their beliefs would inevitably lead to at least some cruel practices. For example, the being worthy of the highest degree of the CK is when you have 3 wives. That practice inevitably pushes the age of marriage for women down and the number of single men up. The dynamic of major age gaps would reinforce sexist power dynamics. Since higher authorities had lowkey harems this was even more to cause unstable social practices. Polygamy in just about every society that's ever practiced it has to remain a small subsection of the population at any given moment for the simple factor of numbers. There's a near equal amount of men to women most of the time.  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited by BlueDreams
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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I do know this LDS/FLDS history and regardless of their [the Church's] motivation,

I think the motivation is super important here. Compare the Church's motivation (survival) with the motivation of 1950s Evangelicals wanting to persecute the Church (animosity). I can understand the former, while the latter is just hostility worship.

Edited by Chum
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  • 4 weeks later...

Those interested in the subject may find this video worthwhile.  Craig Foster is a FAIR member who has studied Mormon Fundamentalists extensively including a number of interviews of FLDS and former FLDS members.  Brian Hales of course has those three volumes on Joseph Smith’s polygamy.  Craig compares LDS to FLDS and Joseph Smith to Jeffs.

 

Edited by Calm
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On 6/20/2022 at 8:17 AM, Chum said:

Where I've seen youth groups heavy with bad behavior is where the circle of adults/youth mostly associated with themselves. Their church/school/sports/recreation contact was largely limited to each other. One instance was a ward in our stake and another was at a charter school that was tightly tied to a local evangelical church.

I can't stress enough how important it is for wards/youth to mix it up with their communities. Insularity eventually becomes poison.

Not to mention how the whole polygamy thing came from us.  It wouldn’t exist at all if it weren’t for that bit.  

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