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Why Satan had access to the Garden of Eden


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17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What if we fell before we were born?

It makes sense to me that we are here (on THIS earth, which apparently is a fairly "dense" place, no pun intended) because of choices WE EACH made before we were born. 

By some interpretations of the story of the Fall they were good choices, and by some they were bad choices.  Either way I'm hoping all of these things will give us experience, and will ultimately work together for our good.  

Maybe it's a bit like Thomas Edison and the light bulb:  His multitude of failures don't matter in the long run, and he arguably benefited from them, and by extension so do we all.   

Edited by manol
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18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What if we fell before we were born?

In the sense that we fell by choosing to come here, we certainly fell before we were born. 

Or are you suggesting that we entered a sort of intermediary premortal state where we weren't yet born but still weren't in the presence of God in the same way as before? I don't see any reason why not, but I don't know of any evidence for it.

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3 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Or are you suggesting that we entered a sort of intermediary premortal state where we weren't yet born but still weren't in the presence of God in the same way as before? I don't see any reason why not, but I don't know of any evidence for it.

Is that like Pregatory?  (I don't think our Catholics friends have thought of that one yet).  :) 

Edited by InCognitus
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4 hours ago, Obehave said:

What do you think it means to fall?  I think the fall of Adam and Eve refers to them becoming mortal.  So if we fell before we were born that would mean, to me, that we became mortal before we were born.  Like while inside our Mother's womb.

Nothing really odd about that idea, to me.  I think I've always thought we became mortal before we were born while we were still inside our Mother's womb.

 

4 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

In the sense that we fell by choosing to come here, we certainly fell before we were born. 

Or are you suggesting that we entered a sort of intermediary premortal state where we weren't yet born but still weren't in the presence of God in the same way as before? I don't see any reason why not, but I don't know of any evidence for it.

No, I mean fell in the same way Satan and the fallen spirits fell. That during the conflict with Satan they sinned and fell. Then some of them repented and fought on God’s side but they weren’t able to be put in Terrestrial bodies. They were Telestial now. So if Adam and Eve did not transgress and progressed and eventually had children those who did not fall could be born. Three parts of the hosts of heaven? Those who were whole still to be born in the Millenium, those who were fallen and did not repent to follow Lucifer and then the in-between ones whose progression was halted due to their own sins and could not be born in a Millenial world. Maybe Lucifer is some kind of anomaly and this had never happened before? Or maybe those destined for other worlds who fell now come here?

Then Jesus, Adam, and Eve make a plan to hack the world with the Father’s consent. He cannot command it but He can allow it. Eve is the first key and she sees or remembers enough to know they agreed to fall and provide bodies for those who could get one no other way and gives up her earned and deserved rule over the world . Adam follows because he loves her and is willing to give up his lordship over the world as well in an insane rescue mission. Jesus is the most important pillar as he renews the whole world through his suffering and sacrifice and his atonement cleanses those the fallen spirits as they are born and will heal them in time.

The biggest gap here is the idea that they could never have children but maybe it is more that they could not have these children here now. It explains why so many are born without the gospel. If the choice is to be a fallen spirit which scripture hints always eventually become devils or a resurrected Telestial being then the choice is obvious. “A light to the Gentiles”

Then again I might be wrong and kind of hope I am. I do think it explains A LOT.

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11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

No, I mean fell in the same way Satan and the fallen spirits fell. That during the conflict with Satan they sinned and fell. Then some of them repented and fought on God’s side but they weren’t able to be put in Terrestrial bodies. They were Telestial now. So if Adam and Eve did not transgress and progressed and eventually had children those who did not fall could be born. Three parts of the hosts of heaven? Those who were whole still to be born in the Millenium, those who were fallen and did not repent to follow Lucifer and then the in-between ones whose progression was halted due to their own sins and could not be born in a Millenial world. Maybe Lucifer is some kind of anomaly and this had never happened before? Or maybe those destined for other worlds who fell now come here?

Then Jesus, Adam, and Eve make a plan to hack the world with the Father’s consent. He cannot command it but He can allow it. Eve is the first key and she sees or remembers enough to know they agreed to fall and provide bodies for those who could get one no other way and gives up her earned and deserved rule over the world . Adam follows because he loves her and is willing to give up his lordship over the world as well in an insane rescue mission. Jesus is the most important pillar as he renews the whole world through his suffering and sacrifice and his atonement cleanses those the fallen spirits as they are born and will heal them in time.

The biggest gap here is the idea that they could never have children but maybe it is more that they could not have these children here now. It explains why so many are born without the gospel. If the choice is to be a fallen spirit which scripture hints always eventually become devils or a resurrected Telestial being then the choice is obvious. “A light to the Gentiles”

Then again I might be wrong and kind of hope I am. I do think it explains A LOT.

I think Abraham 3:19 might explain things and allow you to sustain your hope in being wrong :) 

Rather than premortal disobedience and fall disqualifying some spirits from a paradisiacal creation, there are degrees of intelligence from the least of these to Christ. The 3 parts: the followers of Lucifer, the followers of Christ, and Christ with His Father and the other gods with whom the Father dwells. The followers of Christ, being so much less intelligent than He, could not manage anything but the least glorified of physical kingdoms until they are perfected in Christ. So Adam and Eve, materially created in a kingdom of terrestrial glory (Eden), would eventually fail at maintaining it (both commands) by virtue of their relatively lower intelligence to Christ's. They could not be first placed in a telestial world like ours because the veil of forgetfulness, as part of the test, required them to experience first-hand the limitations of their intelligence relative to Christ's. Christ is the one who gives up his exalted ("earned and deserved") position, condescends and descends below all things to enable the rest of us to eventually advance as far as we are willing.

Regarding the gap, they could not have children in Eden (or in a lesser kingdom, or in a greater kingdom for that matter -- no children at all) without a / some knowledge of good and evil. They could only have children as mortals because unlike Christ, this environment represented the extent of their intellectual faculty, since  it doesn't take much conscience, the least manifestation of which is instinct, to have children in a mortal world.

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16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The biggest gap here is the idea that they could never have children but maybe it is more that they could not have these children here now. It explains why so many are born without the gospel. If the choice is to be a fallen spirit which scripture hints always eventually become devils or a resurrected Telestial being then the choice is obvious. “A light to the Gentiles”

Then again I might be wrong and kind of hope I am. I do think it explains A LOT.

If I understand you, you believe sacrifices were made by Adam and Eve and the Saviour and likely others so the Telestial beings, who had chosen Satan first, but then repented could still have a place that they could tolerate and flourish in and progress to a Telestial glory eventually. So some portion of humanity was destined from birth to only make it to the Telestial?  And the rest came along to make it a working model.  Is that correct?  I think it is correct because the similar idea that a world was needed for then Telestial fit souls who would be able to use this world experience and what comes next to progress not only to the Telestial glory, but Terrestial and Celestial as well isn’t that different from the idea we have now and if it didn’t matter where you started but only where you ended, why be troubled by the idea?  So it seems to me if you are bothered by it, your idea must limit progression in your mind somehow for many of the souls on earth.

Edited by Calm
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On 6/14/2022 at 7:35 AM, Nofear said:

They transgressed because they partook prematurely when it was forbidden. Adam and Eve could have chosen to leave the Garden at some future time when God did not forbid it because they had been taught, prepared, and were ready to Fall.

There are more of us who believe this than I thought!

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On 6/14/2022 at 12:14 PM, Pyreaux said:

There have been many LDS and Christian thoughts that believe the Fall... or specifically the obtainment of the knowledge of good and evil was clearly necessary, but it could have come about in alternate ways, ideally by waiting for the guided hand and instruction of God. They jump-started a process they would have eventually been instructed to do.

We are agreed on this point.  I am genuinely surprised to see so many who view it this way on here. 

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On 6/14/2022 at 8:13 PM, Calm said:

I thought we used slides to get from heaven to earth…

I think I saw it in a cartoon years ago.

Yes, Shoots and Ladders is actually an ancient religious ritual that outlines the plan of salvation. 

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1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

It’s a story, a fable, told over thousands of years…it is symbolism…

I don't think that makes these questions any less relevant.  What is the symbolism in the different elements of the story?  Symbolism or not, these questions lead to understanding. 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can’t see what would be that troubling if Telestial souls were able to use this world experience and what comes next to progress not only to the Telestial glory, but Terrestial and Celestial as well. If it didn’t matter where you started but only where you ended, why be troubled by the idea?

The bolded part could be interpreted as a suggestion of possible progression between kingdoms after "this world experience".  Is it?  

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20 minutes ago, manol said:

The bolded part could be interpreted as a suggestion of possible progression between kingdoms after "this world experience".  Is it?  

Not really needed but it could be that way.  But it is not needed in my view because of the Atonement; just because at the starting point of birth one is Telestial material unable to tolerate more purified realms, why couldn’t they learn, repent, be purified and justified like the rest and progress to higher glories while living and then be even Celestial, exalted candidates at death or at least by preressurrection due to additional growth in the Spirit World if certain events needed for terrestrial and celestial growth can’t be available in a Telestial world?  If we truly believe that repentance can be infinite and that baptism can open our soul to a complete cleansing through the Atonement…as if our sin never even occurred, why would anyone be locked in at Telestial?

Edited by Calm
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On 6/14/2022 at 5:40 PM, OGHoosier said:

I adore the Book of Job, its sheer poetic beauty is nonpareil and it confronts some of the hardest issues we face. 

Are you familiar with Mack Stirling's chapter on Job as a temple text?

I haven’t read his work so thanks for the tip.  I’ll give it a look.  From my own studies, there is no doubt that that is exactly what Job is and intended to be studied as such.

Edited by Durangout
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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don't think that makes these questions any less relevant.  What is the symbolism in the different elements of the story?  Symbolism or not, these questions lead to understanding. 

This should help you:

image.jpeg.054457409ed79ac568878a665ab49a61.jpeg

 

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On 6/14/2022 at 8:10 AM, JLHPROF said:

2 Nephi 2:11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

Could we, being imperfect humans, provide sufficient opposition without the help of devils?  Maybe just the kind where we get snippy with each other but don't murder and rape and rob and all that?

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On 6/14/2022 at 8:54 AM, Metis_LDS said:

Was this a test for Satan to see what he would really do,  we talk but actions speak louder.

So giving Satan freedom in the Garden was perhaps meant to show his true hostility.  Interesting that as beings created together we are tied together until a greater division than the rebellion in Heaven.

Here is one possible narrative:


Long long ago in a galaxy far far away…
There was a high ranking angel named Lucifer.  He wanted more:

>“And he saw the glory of him that moveth the heavens, and he thought to set his seat above the clouds of heaven and desired to be like unto the Most High.” (from Interrogatio Johannis)

God, out of love for his children, couldn’t give the universe to a usurper, but is also very gentle and didn’t want to destroy the rebelling angel, and so gave him an opportunity to repent of his pride through a loyalty test: To be placed under a lower angel (Adam) to shepherd an earth and its people through progression.

Lucifer was enraged by this:
>“And he, a being of great pride, drew himself up in a shameless manner, and said, “It is meet that this [man Adam] should come and worship me, for I existed before he came into being.””

And so the mutiny was on.  Lucifer and those that followed him hijacked this earth and took captive those Adam and Eve were charged with watching over. And this earth fell from a terrestrial state, where we can grow in a safe place into a world of depravity.  It was cut off from the heavens so that the rebellion could not spread to other worlds. Adam and Eve “eating fruit” is a way of obfuscating how they willingly crossed over into this world to save the creation.

But why are things so depraved and why doesn’t god put down the rebellion?
The rebellion continues because many here can be convinced to lay down their enmity toward god and come back to Him.  And this is why things are so bad here—The devils want your loyalty.  How do they get it?  By convincing you that *God is the bad guy*. They want to frame God for their own bad deeds. 

 

This is, of course, different from the standard teachings, so take how you will.  Also, the Book of Enoch and Interrogatio Johannis are worth your time.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

If I understand you, you believe sacrifices were made by Adam and Eve and the Saviour and likely others so the Telestial beings, who had chosen Satan first, but then repented could still have a place that they could tolerate and flourish in and progress to a Telestial glory eventually. So some portion of humanity was destined from birth to only make it to the Telestial?  And the rest came along to make it a working model.  Is that correct?  I think it is correct because the similar idea that a world was needed for then Telestial fit souls who would be able to use this world experience and what comes next to progress not only to the Telestial glory, but Terrestial and Celestial as well isn’t that different from the idea we have now and if it didn’t matter where you started but only where you ended, why be troubled by the idea?  So it seems to me if you are bothered by it, your idea must limit progression in your mind somehow for many of the souls on earth.

Not destined to Telestial. All have the path to exaltation open to them. Just that getting to the Telestial is a massive improvement for all. It seems less of an improvement if the starting location is the presence of God.

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6 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think Abraham 3:19 might explain things and allow you to sustain your hope in being wrong :) 

Rather than premortal disobedience and fall disqualifying some spirits from a paradisiacal creation, there are degrees of intelligence from the least of these to Christ. The 3 parts: the followers of Lucifer, the followers of Christ, and Christ with His Father and the other gods with whom the Father dwells. The followers of Christ, being so much less intelligent than He, could not manage anything but the least glorified of physical kingdoms until they are perfected in Christ. So Adam and Eve, materially created in a kingdom of terrestrial glory (Eden), would eventually fail at maintaining it (both commands) by virtue of their relatively lower intelligence to Christ's. They could not be first placed in a telestial world like ours because the veil of forgetfulness, as part of the test, required them to experience first-hand the limitations of their intelligence relative to Christ's. Christ is the one who gives up his exalted ("earned and deserved") position, condescends and descends below all things to enable the rest of us to eventually advance as far as we are willing.

Regarding the gap, they could not have children in Eden (or in a lesser kingdom, or in a greater kingdom for that matter -- no children at all) without a / some knowledge of good and evil. They could only have children as mortals because unlike Christ, this environment represented the extent of their intellectual faculty, since  it doesn't take much conscience, the least manifestation of which is instinct, to have children in a mortal world.

That is still God setting Adam and Eve up to fail. I don’t think it explains why the Garden was needed. Why go through the song and dance?

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18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

The biggest gap here is the idea that they could never have children but maybe it is more that they could not have these children here now. 

 

Here's one way to think about it: 

  • Adam and Eve had stewardship over a world and the spirits thereon (This may be the kernel of truth behind the dumber Adam-God theories)
  • Lucifer was demoted under Adam's stewardship after his initial rebellion and given an opportunity to prove their loyalty to God. (And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon;) this was the first estate
  • Then the full mutiny begins (See Book of Enoch).  Adam and Eve's children, innocent beings, young spirits, are more or less lured into a van with "Free Candy" painted on the side and are held hostage here by the devils.
  • To prevent the rebellion from spreading to other worlds, this world is cut off, quarantined, and fallen
  • Adam and Eve now have a choice: they can walk away from their posterity, never having their children, or they can cross over (transgress) into the fallen world and attempt to rescue the captive children.  They choose to fall and enter a much darker world.
  • Others are invited to join the rescue 
    • Though the plan from first to last is entirely God’s own, He discusses it with others, “consulting the souls of the righteous before deciding to create the world,” not because He needs their advice, but because the plan concerns them and requires their maximum participation in it. The discussion was a lively one; apart from those rebellious angels who rejected it entirely, there was a general protest that the plan would be too painful for some parties and too risky for all; it was the generous voluntary offering of the Son of God that settled the question. (Nibley, Treasures in the Heavens, Old Testament and Related Studies)

This is obviously different from the stories we grew up with.  Take it how you will.

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9 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Here's one way to think about it: 

  • Adam and Eve had stewardship over a world and the spirits thereon (This may be the kernel of truth behind the dumber Adam-God theories)
  • Lucifer was demoted under Adam's stewardship after his initial rebellion and given an opportunity to prove their loyalty to God. (And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon;) this was the first estate
  • Then the full mutiny begins (See Book of Enoch).  Adam and Eve's children, innocent beings, young spirits, are more or less lured into a van with "Free Candy" painted on the side and are held hostage here by the devils.
  • To prevent the rebellion from spreading to other worlds, this world is cut off, quarantined, and fallen
  • Adam and Eve now have a choice: they can walk away from their posterity, never having their children, or they can cross over (transgress) into the fallen world and attempt to rescue the captive children.  They choose to fall and enter a much darker world.
  • Others are invited to join the rescue 
    • Though the plan from first to last is entirely God’s own, He discusses it with others, “consulting the souls of the righteous before deciding to create the world,” not because He needs their advice, but because the plan concerns them and requires their maximum participation in it. The discussion was a lively one; apart from those rebellious angels who rejected it entirely, there was a general protest that the plan would be too painful for some parties and too risky for all; it was the generous voluntary offering of the Son of God that settled the question. (Nibley, Treasures in the Heavens, Old Testament and Related Studies)

This is obviously different from the stories we grew up with.  Take it how you will.

There are elements of some of that in what I posited.

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52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not destined to Telestial. All have the path to exaltation open to them. Just that getting to the Telestial is a massive improvement for all. It seems less of an improvement if the starting location is the presence of God.

Why is it troubling to you then?

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51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is still God setting Adam and Eve up to fail. I don’t think it explains why the Garden was needed. Why go through the song and dance?

He was not setting up anything that was not previously mutually understood and agreed-upon or inevitable. Given their status and intelligence, Adam and Eve could not possibly do that which only God and the rest of the "first part" of the host of Heaven could do, and had been doing for who-knows-how-long (which is to have perfect knowledge of good and evil and multiply and replenish their worlds with eternal increase).

The Garden was needed to bring the "second part" of the host of Heaven into mortality in a way that would help the first parents realize, by developing functional agency (knowledge of good and evil) and contrasting the physical and spiritual experiences between Eden and mortality in order to appreciate their limitations and rely on Christ to accomplish what they could not possibly do, become like Him, and pass that on to their posterity (the reminder of the "second part"). This is how the children of God learn how to coordinate the two trees.

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54 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why is it troubling to you then?

I for one don't feel flattered by the idea that I was one of the Telestial folks, but my vanity has no claim on truth. 

I agree that @The Nehor's speculation has some explanatory value and possibly could be useful in a theodicy, but I don't see it as evidenced by anything more than speculation.

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