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The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion


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58 minutes ago, Calm said:

People who have always been mostly healthy can have a very hard time understanding the experience of being chronically ill and are often rotten caregivers. The best caregivers are often the ones suffering the same things. 

This is because language is simply unable to convey EXPERIENCE!

We cannot get beyond words to experience, it is William James speaking about the words "Juicy New York Steak with Onions" on a menu vs the steamy slab of deliciousness that arrives before us.

So the "correspondence" theory of truth doesn't work.  What IS "delicious"? What IS THAT EXPERIENCE? That's why so many theologians also have to be into cognitive science today.

So what is "the spirit"? The only way you can explain it to an atheist is "conscience".  But there is so much more in spiritual experience than they can know.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I do think when resurrected, our ability to communicate will be so much expanded that sharing our experiences will be very close, maybe even identical to actually living them if that is the level of communication we desired. I believe this for a couple of reasons; some are it explains to me how we can become one, an eternity will allow us to get very good at body language as well as other cues, and we can develop a very sophisticated and precise language if we have eons to learn it. 

As we learn in scripture it is said that God takes us up and we "see" worlds without end, etc.

We CAN communicate in experience!  I believe 

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13 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I don't see everybody ever getting to the point where everybody has had the same experiences, or agrees with each other.  I don't think that is even possible.

The Father and the Son agree with each other.  Christ has asked us to be one like He and the Father are one.  Just like them.  I don't think He would ask us to do that unless we could (eventually).

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On 6/11/2022 at 10:11 PM, Obeone said:

The Fall of Adam, an Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

I think these three are closely linked.

How?

The Fall of Adam was caused by an ancient lie.

What lie?

That “there was no other way” for him in the garden but to transgress.

Why is that a lie?

Proof:

  1. God does not give impossible commandments (1 Nephi 3:7)
  2. God commanded Adam and Eve to have children AND not to partake of the forbidden fruit. Which means:
  3. They COULD do it. See point (1).

End of proof.

Ok. And redemption of Zion?

Zion cannot be redeemed from the fall while believing the very lie that caused its fall in the first place.

It makes a lot of sense to me that when Adam visits the Church in Adam-ondi-Ahman, he will end this lie that has been with us for too long. Then Zion will be redeemed and New Jerusalem built.

 

What are your thoughts guys?

Now I see why you went off track. You’ve made the same doctrinal error I’ve seen others make by misunderstanding what the terms telestial and terrestrial really mean. The mistake is made when an assumption is made that these terms have uniform and consistent meanings across the board when they actually don’t.

For example, because the world in which we now live is at times referred to as a “telestial world” some make the mistaken assumption that the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory will be much like it is now on this fallen planet, but this is incorrect. This present telestial world is characterized by sin, all having fallen mortal natures, physical death, and it’s presently a habitation of devils

On the other hand, the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory will be characterized by obedience to God’s post-resurrection telestial law of righteousness, the fallen mortal nature will be replaced by a state of relative righteousness that will enable its inhabitants to enjoy the ministry of the Holy Spirit and angelic messengers, and physical death will be overcome with a glorious resurrection. In addition, the inhabitants of the telestial kingdom of glory will be redeemed from the devil and his angels, with the hosts of Satan being cast into outer darkness at the time of the final judgement So as you can see, just because our present dwelling place is called a  telestial world doesn’t mean it has very much in common with the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory, which we are told is a realm that’s so sublime that it’s glory is beyond present human comprehension.

The same holds true for the term terrestrial. For instance, just because the realm in which Adam and Eve lived prior to the fall is called a terrestrial world doesn’t mean it had much in common with what will be the post-resurrection terrestrial kingdom of glory. Consider that the pre-fall terrestrial world was characterized by an ignorance of the difference between good and evil, the result being that it could only provide an bland existence devoid meaning and joy. Meanwhile the terrestrial kingdom of post-resurrection glory will be inhabited by people who did come to know the effects of sin through their own experience wrestling with the fallen nature, and they will eventually be deemed worthy of enjoying the immediate presence of the Lord Jesus Christ who will minister great joy to their enlightened and redeem souls.

And also consider that the millennial terrestrial world will be a place where Satan and his hosts will be  loosed and where the final great battle between the forces of good and evil — the battle of Gog and Magog — will be fought. So even Christ’s 1000 year millennial reign on earth has virtually nothing in common with the dull and joyless world that existed before the fall.

The ability to discern nuance and subtlety is needed in order to correctly understand the word of God.

Edited by teddyaware
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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As we learn in scripture it is said that God takes us up and we "see" worlds without end, etc.

We CAN communicate in experience!  I believe 

Yep, I believe this too, there will be some way to link into perfect memories of other people when they want you to.  Maybe as a group.  I don’t want to label it telepathy because that makes it too small, I think it will be much more shattering of boundaries.

Edited by Calm
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13 minutes ago, Obehave said:

As a fan of Star Trek, or maybe not really a fan since I am not fanatic about it, my mind went to what is called a mind meld, which most Vulcans are pretty good at.  So now I'm thinking of something like that except maybe being able to do it without touching.

Walk down the streets of gold with me later and BAM! maybe I will able to read your mind and maybe without you saying a word.

I think mind meld too simple…something closer maybe to what happened to Picard when a probe downloaded someone’s entire life (maybe just most of their adult life) into his brain and when he woke up, he had that shared experience, an added dimension to his own life, he had grown from it (as hinted at by his interest in playing the same musical instrument).

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(episode)

But really, I don’t think we have a clue what it will be like. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Obehave said:

Do you mean by experiencing the same experience some other person experiences?   How do you think would we know if we had? 

Near-death experiencers sometimes report a life review wherein they re-experience the effects of their actions from the other person's perspective.  Here's one, from 17:49 to about 18:48:

https://youtu.be/lDSDP1tGfJ0?t=1069

And here a near-death researcher describes this aspect of the life review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tiKsKy7lFw

Less common (but not unheard of) are reports of sharing one's experiences with others, described here as "downloading information", from 6:27 to about 8:44:

https://youtu.be/s8lQs1MccoU?t=387

2 hours ago, Obehave said:

And why would it be important to know if we had?

"All these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good", taken to a new level.

And perhaps really knowing what it's like for other people is part of the path of becoming like Christ:

"And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people.

"And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

"Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me."  (Alma 7:11-13)

Edited by manol
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28 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I think maybe you mean for those who choose to experience that, if it is possible to experience something like that. 

No, I don’t. I mean that the little golden book picture version of being one we have in the eternities is nothing like the reality, which is currently unimaginable for people whose brains/minds are as limited as we are.  I don’t see a “mind meld” as even close.  I see a life sharing download into each other’s brains as maybe a possible preschool version of it. But again think more like clueless. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Calm said:

But really, I don’t think we have a clue what it will be like. 

The whole point here is that we CANNOT imagine- now- what it would be like.   We are limited by language.

This is not mfb talking,it is thousands of students of the phlosophy of language and even many physicists - nearly all- who understand that what WE understand is not at all about "reality" but about what our mind is capable of creating.

Same as Rorty quote below.   We have to create language but don't have the words or the way to do it.

Religion IS creating the language

Edited by mfbukowski
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For what it's worth, I tried to consolidate my posts in this thread for any interested in how we might address the question of "no other way":

I found Abraham 3:19 helpful in showing that none but Christ had the wherewithal (intelligence and keys) to keep the command to multiply and replenish the earth while already possessing the knowledge of good and evil. My working model involves three parts of the hosts of heaven: the followers of Lucifer (the “third part” from scripture), the followers of Christ (the “second part” – my extrapolation), and Christ with His Father and the other gods with whom They dwell (the “first part” – also my extrapolation). Having the keys, He controlled access to the ability to multiply and to know good and evil.

Multiplying and replenishing the earth requires knowledge of good and evil because in its most basic form, the light of Christ in the form of instinct prompts human beings in this world to procreate. In its highest form, the perfect knowledge of God enables exalted beings the continuation of the seeds forever. But perfect knowledge cannot arise, except developmentally, from instinct. Adam and Eve came into Eden with neither. After they partook of the forbidden fruit, first gaining instinct and later moral sense, the Lord gave them the way to live in righteousness so as to eventually multiply and replenish worlds without end.

Adam and Eve lacked this instinct to multiply and replenish the earth until they partook of the forbidden fruit. Until then, they acted in a morally neutral way, just following instructions, having nothing else with which to compare their options. Adam’s reticence to not partake of the forbidden fruit was not a moral decision, but based on remembering his orders; Eve’s inclination to partake was not immoral, but based on inexperience tracking her orders (hence the need for writing!).

God waited for them to partake on their own, contrary to His prohibition, to demonstrate to them, by contrast, their spiritual and physical limitations and their need to rely upon the Him to maximize the gift of procreation through eternal increase. This was known by all in the first estate as spirits, but had to be realized anew in the second estate with a body. On our own, the “second part” could never multiply and replenish the earth beyond an instinctive and mortal level. With Christ, we progress from these most base but fundamental and essential levels or building blocks. Given the limited capacity of the "second part", there is no other way for us to begin or end, and Christ is central to both.

The forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge catalyzed their instinctive ability to multiply and replenish the earth, just as physically consumed substances can induce our mental states, one of which is the reproductive instinct. Thus, this knowledge of good and evil, developing from instinct, could come by no other way.

P.S. this can be taken either figuratively or literally!

Edited by CV75
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2 hours ago, Obehave said:

I believe our Savior has felt every emotion every one of us can possibly feel, but I don't believe he has had all of the same experiences every one of us has had. If you're suggesting the latter, while also saying we can possibly do that too, then no thank you.

What if you had the chance to be love incarnate throughout all of creation?

I don't really expect an answer to that... the point I'm trying to make is, try to keep an open mind that we may not yet have a complete picture of Christ nor of our relationship to him.

Edited by manol
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