Obeone Posted June 15, 2022 Author Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, pogi said: There are several commandments that cannot be fulfilled in mortality - good thing that we are not limited by mortality to fulfill them. The infertile are promised children and the imperfect are promised perfection. "Be ye therefore perfect" - ya, not happening in this life. When people done all they can to fulfill the commandment: "it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings." (D&C 124:49) In other words, the commandment is revoked/suspended after they have done all they can. That clearly was not the case with Adam and Eve. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Obehave said: I consider going FROM having only a mortal body for our spirit (which is subject to death requiring a separation) TO having an immortal body for our spirit (in which a separation is not required) as a step in progression. Don't you? I am talking about going from Adam and Eve’s premortal immortal bodies to the post mortal immortal body. Where is the progression between those two states if the only difference is one was a situation where they were required to separate their spirit from body and the later one they don’t have to, but could if they wanted to. Edited June 15, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Obehave said: The body is one thing. The mind aka spirit is something else. Glory is all about intelligence, in my perspective. Acting intelligently and accepting intelligent thoughts and ideas from wherever or whoever we can get them from. That's where. The point I am making is being lost in the delay between reading the posts. It is all pure speculation at this part, so I am not starting over, but dropping it. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 minute ago, Obehave said: I understood the point you were making. Maybe I should have told you so you would know I got it. I just went on to add some more to that point. But yes, the immortal body with an immortal spirit in it would have been in the same state unless maybe they had learned something and gained some intelligence between one point and the other. Assertion with noting scriptural supporting it though. Pure speculation on your part. Which really doesn’t make sense as an efficient use of our time and experiences. Link to comment
ksfisher Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Obehave said: You are saying that my assertion was an assumption. I would not call it that if I were you. God may not have revealed what I assert to you but I can still know what God has revealed to me even if God hasn't told you yet. Maybe you should consider that a bit. If you are asserting personal revelation, then it is just that, personal. It has no application to others. If God would like to reveal more about the Adam and Eve and the garden to the members of the church then He would do so through His prophets. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Obeone said: I do need to mention the core of the idea of Adam’s, Eve’s, and Lehi’s statement is this: The value of lessons learned is always greater than the cost of the error through which the lesson came. This is why God allows error, transgression and sin to occur. Thus, the value of the lessons Adam and Eve learned because of the fall is greater than the cost of the fall. This said, all need to remember: that the righteous learn from the mistakes of others, and not righteous learn from their own mistakes. There was a better way for Adam in the Garden, but because of the Savior Adam could learn his lesson and progress. But by denying that there was a better way, had Adam listened to God, we nullify the very lesson that needed to be learned. Or, better yet, make it an allegory and NO ONE gets hurt. The prodigal son taught us all, and "he" did not even have to go through it. I think God is smart enough to know you don't need to hurt your children to teach them; you just teach a scary enough story, and they learn just as well. Jesus taught in parables, I see no need for any of this stuff to have "really happened" If you learn that one lesson you will see that the need for fake science apologetics disappears! No BOM historical issues, no flood/ 6 day creation issues, no BOA issues, no translation issues etc etc etc. God inspires parables his babies can understand. Time to put away childish ways Edited June 15, 2022 by mfbukowski 2 Link to comment
Obeone Posted June 15, 2022 Author Share Posted June 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, ksfisher said: If you are asserting personal revelation, then it is just that, personal. It has no application to others. If God would like to reveal more about the Adam and Eve and the garden to the members of the church then He would do so through His prophets. And He did. The scriptures fully support what I said. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) Never mind. Dumb idea. Edited June 15, 2022 by The Nehor Link to comment
ksfisher Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Just now, Obehave said: Isn't the whole point of having this message board to share our thoughts with each other? I don't expect others to assume that my word is as good as God's word. I believe only God's word is good enough to help us know what is true and good. And in this case when I say God I am referring to our Father, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. The word God in other contexts sometimes r3efers to only our Father, or any one of those 3, or even sometimes all of us. Thoughts are one thing, asserting revelation is another. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) @Obeone said "The value of lessons learned is always greater than the cost of the error through which the lesson came." I say, seeing things as ALLEGORICAL, that: The value of lessons learned is always greater than the cost of the error THAT NEVER HAD TO BE MADE The prodigal son never had to BE "prodigal" to teach us NOT to be. There. I fixed it for you. Edited June 15, 2022 by mfbukowski clarification Link to comment
ksfisher Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 21 minutes ago, Obeone said: And He did. The scriptures fully support what I said. My comments weren't directed at you, unless, that is, you and Obehave are the same person. 1 Link to comment
ksfisher Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, Obehave said: Yes, and asserting something is not revelation is another thing too. I'm not sure how that makes sense in context of the discussion. Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Obehave said: What do you think Adam and Eve did in the garden of Eden? I think they chose between good and evil. God told them one thing, with God representing all that is good, and Satan later told them that what God said was not right. Satan is evil that way.\ So how can you see yourself as an Adam or an Eve? You can see yourself as someone who chooses between what is good and what is evil. Every day of your life. Wherever you are and wherever you go. There you will be. As you. Forever. I am suggesting that if the popular interpretation is correct that there was no way to fulfill both commandments - then it is not a choice between good and evil, it is a choice between the lesser of two evils. No option for choice without transgression - so no I don't experience that every-day. In fact, never have I experienced it. There has always been an option to choose good. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 59 minutes ago, ksfisher said: My comments weren't directed at you, unless, that is, you and Obehave are the same person. Got 'em! It's the condescension that gives it away. You forgot Ahab. Now we have a trinity. Unless we include all the other sockpuppets. In that case, I say to the legion "O! Be gone!" 2 Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Or, better yet, make it an allegory and NO ONE gets hurt. The prodigal son taught us all, and "he" did not even have to go through it. I think God is smart enough to know you don't need to hurt your children to teach them; you just teach a scary enough story, and they learn just as well. Jesus taught in parables, I see no need for any of this stuff to have "really happened" If you learn that one lesson you will see that the need for fake science apologetics disappears! No BOM historical issues, no flood/ 6 day creation issues, no BOA issues, no translation issues etc etc etc. God inspires parables his babies can understand. Time to put away childish ways I too see the story as largely allegorical. But in the current popular interpretation of events, I fail to find any applicability in my personal life. If allegories are intended to be applied to ourselves, and we are each supposed to see ourselves as Adam and Eve, how does setting up a contradiction of commandment help me understand my mortal probation any better? Here is the allegory as I noted previously, and as the popular interpretation goes: 1) You must go through door A. 2) Don't go through door B. 3) The only way to door A is through door B. Good luck! By the way, if you go through door B, you're dead buddy! Even as an allegory, the traditional interpretation doesn't make sense and has no application in real life. I fail to see any parallel scenario or application of this interpretation in my life. It makes no sense. There is no equivalent scenario. I think there is greater pragmatic power and teaching in understanding not that obedience is impossible in some scenarios and the lord forces us to chose, but that the Lord prepares a way in the seemingly impossible, and if we fall, he will pick us up when we turn back to him. Not all is lost. Edited June 15, 2022 by pogi 1 Link to comment
halconero Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 22 hours ago, Calm said: Post of the month, man! You really need to hang out here more. Maybe some day. My wife and I are in the process of moving to the UK for doctoral studies, we just found out she is expecting, and I'm trying to get some work across the finish line for the war in Ukraine. To pogi et al. I'll try to respond to you some time today, but it may take a bit - life's obligations and all. 2 Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Obeone sent me a PM wanting me to inform everyone that he has been thread banned in case you were wondering why he is not responding. 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 3 hours ago, Obehave said: They chose whose word to accept, the word of God or the word of Satan. Good and evil were represented by God and Satan. They may not have known God was good and Satan was evil until after they ate the fruit from that tree, but God and Satan still represented good and evil and what God said was good and what Satan said was evil at the moment they said what they said. Why do you think the fruit from that tree was enticing to Eve? I think it was because she believed what Satan told her about it. No, you won't die when you eat that fruit, he said. So she believed Satan rather than what God had said. And the rest is history. This is not the same as choosing between what they knew to be morally good and what they knew to be morally evil. They simply did not have a knowledge of good and evil. This is how they were beguiled, and their obedience to God was no more informed than their beguilement by Satan. You said it yourself: “They may not have known God was good and Satan was evil until after they ate the fruit from that tree…” God and Satan represent good and evil to us, having the benefit of their experience, but they did not represent a moral conflict to them. Good and evil are subjective experiences. Eve observed that the fruit had enticing properties (Genesis 3:6 and 2 Nephi 2: 15, “the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise” and “the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.”). The serpent beguiled her to act on her observations. I think the real issue you need to address with regards to there being another way has to do with Abraham 3:19. Everything else is just dancing around the issue. 2 hours ago, Obehave said: To avoid becoming mortal all Adam and Eve had to do was avoid eating fruit from that one particular tree. And if they had had any children they would have needed to avoid eating it too otherwise they would have become mortal, That's all the intelligence any of them or us would have needed to have. And all that we would have needed for us to exercise our agency was to have 2 options to choose from, one good and the other evil. Oh well. It's all going to work out anyway now. Given that Jesus had the only level of intelligence to perfectly master the keys of both life and knowledge, Adam and Eve and the rest of us would always eventually fail at the attempt to do it. I think this is what has not been addressed with respect to this "Plan A". Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Obehave said: As usually presented, the idea is that Adam and Eve could not have known that what God told them was good, or that what Satan told them was evil, UNLESS they ate some fruit from that particular tree. They did not know good from evil until then. Obeone's premise, as I understand it, is that all they needed was to have God tell them something, with Satan telling them something opposed to what God told them, at which point they would choose whose counsel to act upon. Good vs evil. But how were they supposed to know who was the good guy and who was the bad guy based only on their own assertions? Supposedly they didn't know WHAT was good or evil, and I think not even WHO was good or evil. So I'm leaning toward the idea that opposing counsel was not enough to tell them what or who was evil. They had received opposing counsel BEFORE they ate some fruit from that tree, and yet it wasn't until they ate that fruit that their eyes were opened. We believe God placed some type of veil over our memories to prevent us from remembering what we knew before we came here. So who knows, maybe God lifted enough of that veil for them to discern between good and evil after they ate that fruit. Whatever type of tree and fruit it happened to be. Maybe an apple, maybe a fig. Who really knows? The tree of life is the representation of a being (and his love). What makes you think the tree of knowledge is not the same? 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 16 minutes ago, Obehave said: Could be. I did not think it was not. I just did not think it might be. Now that I've thought about it a bit, what we would have if that were the case would be a tree telling Adam and Eve to not eat its own fruit... actually forbidding them to eat it...because in the day they did eat from that tree they would die. Interesting idea. Don't eat my fruit or you will die! With Satan telling them, nah, you won't really die. You'll just be like him, knowing good and evil, if you eat him or his fruit. This is the nature of delegating keys. Christ holds them all, and delegates their use (and how) to certain individuals at certain times and places on his terms. Simon the sorcerer comes to mind as an object lesson. So, holding the key of knowledge, He sometimes lovingly and wisely allows others to act without full knowledge (as with Adam and Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit) and even contrary to His counsel and command (Joseph Smith's unfortunate experience loaning the manuscript to Martin Harris comes to mind). Some people conflate the naïve judgement of Adam and Eve with the naïve insistence of Joseph Smith, which is easy since naivety is a common factor in both. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, pogi said: No option for choice without transgression - so no I don't experience that every-day. In fact, never have I experienced it. There has always been an option to choose good. In one sense I make that choice every day, take a drug that poisons me and prevents me from participating fully in life or completely go dysfunctional from lack of sleep and my body going haywire. In no way can I look on this drug as a good thing. Edited June 15, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 25 minutes ago, Obehave said: Could be. I did not think it was not. I just did not think it might be. Now that I've thought about it a bit, what we would have if that were the case would be a tree telling Adam and Eve to not eat its own fruit... actually forbidding them to eat it...because in the day they did eat from that tree they would die. Interesting idea. Don't eat my fruit or you will die! With Satan telling them, nah, you won't really die. You'll just be like him, knowing good and evil, if you eat him or his fruit. It's not that strange. God often reserves, even forbids partaking of certain of his blessings until his children are properly prepared and covenanted (sex, baptism, Holly Ghost, sacrament, marriage, etc. etc. etc.). It is not the fruit that killed them, was is the transgression. This is a representation of my spirit, eat it and you will become like me, like the God's. Makes perfect sense actually. Link to comment
Lemuel Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Anyone here read Nibley's Treasures in the Heavens? Nibley_Treasures_in_the_Heavens.pdf Link to comment
pogi Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 22 minutes ago, Obehave said: I think it's a bit strange because on one hand we have God telling us (through Adam and Eve) to NOT eat of his body... if he is that tree... only because we would die if we did WHILE ON THE OTHER HAND he is telling us (through Jesus) to eat him. You lost me here. I'm not sure we are in sync. 23 minutes ago, Obehave said: Death is not much of a big deal so why would he let that stand in our way of becoming like him? Again, I don't think you are understanding me. The fruit didn't cause death - that is not why he forbade it. On the contrary, the fruit caused their eyes to be opened and to be like God. Death was the result of transgression. That is what the scriptures teach us. 24 minutes ago, Obehave said: I also think it's a bit strange to think of our Father as the source for our knowledge of evil. I think of Satan as the one who represents evil to us, while God represents everything good. Why is that strange? Actually, I think there is no one better than Jesus Christ to help us understand and decipher between both good and evil. The tree of knowledge of good and evil is the perfect symbol for Jesus Christ and the light of Christ (which bestows knowledge of good and evil. I have written previously: Quote Christ comprehended the darkest abyss and the depths of evil itself as he bent over in pain and bled drops of blood from every pore. Who could have a better knowledge of evil than he who took all evil upon himself as he partook of that bitter cup? On the other hand, who could have a better knowledge of good than he who was raised up and placed on the right hand of goodness himself, to become one with the source of all good - even God? Is it any wonder than that the light of him who has tasted of both the bitter and the sweet, is the same light that influences the conscience of man and makes it perfect, that we might know the good from the evil? “He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things (knowledge of good and evil), that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth; which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ.” (D&C 88:6-7) It is almost painfully obviously symbolic of Christ. The light of Christ is called the knowledge of good and evil and the spirit of our conscience in scripture. How much more black and white can it get? Link to comment
CV75 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 29 minutes ago, Obehave said: I think it's a bit strange because on one hand we have God telling us (through Adam and Eve) to NOT eat of his body... if he is that tree... only because we would die if we did WHILE ON THE OTHER HAND he is telling us (through Jesus) to eat him. Death is not much of a big deal so why would he let that stand in our way of becoming like him? I also think it's a bit strange to think of our Father as the source for our knowledge of evil. I think of Satan as the one who represents evil to us, while God represents everything good. Our knowledge of good and evil in the pre-existence came from our experience there and we acted accordingly. A third of the host of heaven avoided mortality. But Adam and Eve could not avoid it, and Jesus did not avoid it. The difference between thee three sets is that the first set of spirits chose avoidance out of rebellion. The second set chose mortality, first in the premortal estate out of humility, recognizing that only the Savior would redeem them and secondly by default in the physical creation, having relatively limited, veiled intelligence. Jesus made His choice out of fully perfect spiritual development and intelligence, having power over both the tree of life and the tree of knowledge, even as a spirit before and after the physical creation. Link to comment
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