Ben Spackman’s thoughts on Sunday School

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Agreed.  Listening to someone talk about someone else's talk just doesn't do it form me.

Some of the best sacrament meeting talks I've heard in the past couple years have been when we were in lockdown and my family would put on a talk from a past conference.

Kind of reminds me of a time my in laws rented a houseboat on Lake Powell several years ago and it fell on a Sunday and my brother in law was in charge of the talk. We got permission to have the Sacrament as well. And the talk was the simplest talk and I felt the spirit probably more than most, haha. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

I wonder if an appropriate solution would be to double the amount of time we spend with each book of scripture.  Two years each in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C.  Maybe mix it up a little, so we don't go so long between books, so that Year One is the first half of the OT, Year Two is the Gospels, etc, Year Five is the second half of the OT, Year Six is Acts and the Epistles, etc.

Might make it harder to mirror seminary and Come Follow Me, but it could allow for deeper dives into the scriptures.

In my last SS class (not yesterday, but the last time I taught before that), we covered the Book of Numbers.  The WHOLE book in a single 45 minute lesson.  And then we had an off-week, a fifth Sunday, a Stake conference, and then another off week, and then we meet again (yesterday) and we're already deep inside 1 Samuel.  So much scriptural territory that we just skipped over, that I didn't even get a chance to give a mediocre lesson for.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I wonder if an appropriate solution would be to double the amount of time we spend with each book of scripture.  Two years each in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C.  Maybe mix it up a little, so we don't go so long between books, so that Year One is the first half of the OT, Year Two is the Gospels, etc, Year Five is the second half of the OT, Year Six is Acts and the Epistles, etc.

Might make it harder to mirror seminary and Come Follow Me, but it could allow for deeper dives into the scriptures.

In my last SS class (not yesterday, but the last time I taught before that), we covered the Book of Numbers.  The WHOLE book in a single 45 minute lesson.  And then we had an off-week, a fifth Sunday, a Stake conference, and then another off week, and then we meet again (yesterday) and we're already deep inside 1 Samuel.  So much scriptural territory that we just skipped over, that I didn't even get a chance to give a mediocre lesson for.

It probably would be different if LDS only studied the Bible each year, and not the D&C and BoM. So there's that.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Mormons really seem to have a blind spot when it comes to reading the audience, many of whom didn't receive that kind of love or miracle. As in, when you have members who have lost close family, do not...do NOT get up and talk about how you were miraculously saved because God decided to watch over you.]

I understand because my experience was earth shaking for me, and I see that in their eyes if I tell it.

But I want folks to know it DOES happen. I was/am the world 's biggest skeptic. So where is the compromise?

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Didn't that happen before though?  It seems  like in several wards in my stake people would hang out in the chapel during Sunday school, but then attend RS/EQ.

You need more wards in your building.  No place to hide!

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I wonder if an appropriate solution would be to double the amount of time we spend with each book of scripture.  Two years each in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C.  Maybe mix it up a little, so we don't go so long between books, so that Year One is the first half of the OT, Year Two is the Gospels, etc, Year Five is the second half of the OT, Year Six is Acts and the Epistles, etc.

Might make it harder to mirror seminary and Come Follow Me, but it could allow for deeper dives into the scriptures.

In my last SS class (not yesterday, but the last time I taught before that), we covered the Book of Numbers.  The WHOLE book in a single 45 minute lesson.  And then we had an off-week, a fifth Sunday, a Stake conference, and then another off week, and then we meet again (yesterday) and we're already deep inside 1 Samuel.  So much scriptural territory that we just skipped over, that I didn't even get a chance to give a mediocre lesson for.

There is a BYU talk that shares the experience of 2 men who asked a rabbi to help them study the OT.  The first one wanted to study Genesis for 8 weeks. His rabbi thought that was much too fast.  They ended up just studying the first 3 chapters, but the rabbi felt rushed.  The other man ended up spending a month with his rabbi learning about only the first verse.

 

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Rain said:

There is a BYU talk that shares the experience of 2 men who asked a rabbi to help them study the OT.  The first one wanted to study Genesis for 8 weeks. His rabbi thought that was much too fast.  They ended up just studying the first 3 chapters, but the rabbi felt rushed.  The other man ended up spending a month with his rabbi learning about only the first verse.

 

This is the other side.

How many folks would go to class with this scenario?

[Hamba Tuhan]

51 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This is the other side.

How many folks would go to class with this scenario?

Or walk out with the strength/inspiration they need to face the week's challenges for themselves, their families, and those they minister to. There is an assumption of 'luxury' running through this thread that just isn't the reality for the vast majority of Latter-day Saints, in my opinion.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

Perhaps we could go to a format where the lessons are based on a gospel principle and supported by sources from all standard works and conference talks.
 

This is from the March, 1912, Improvement Era. Seems like there is nothing new under the sun🙂.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

How many folks would go to class with this scenario?

Me.  

In the non-LDS Bible study I participated in for nearly 12 years, we covered one chapter every week in a one hour and 45 minute period of time.  Sometimes that wasn't enough time for one chapter, so we continued on the chapter the next week.  It was awesome, especially in getting viewpoints from other members of the group.

If we only had more time in our lives. 

Reminds me of Teyve in Fiddler on the Roof, and how things would be if only he were a rich man:

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack to sit in the synagogue and pray
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day
And that would be the sweetest thing of all

[Peacefully]

Y’all are really missing out if you aren’t teaching primary. We have cool videos for each story along with an activity. It’s hard to get it all in in the 30 min we have so I usually pick one story like David and Goliath to focus on, although I made sure to talk about both Ruth and Hannah since there are so few stories about women in the Bible. Two of my class members are the bishop’s kids so they can usually tell the stories better than I can. You can tell they study CFM as a family. I don’t miss adult Sunday school, sorry to say. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Peacefully

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Me.  

In the non-LDS Bible study I participated in for nearly 12 years, we covered one chapter every week in a one hour and 45 minute period of time.  Sometimes that wasn't enough time for one chapter, so we continued on the chapter the next week.  It was awesome, especially in getting viewpoints from other members of the group.

If we only had more time in our lives. 

Reminds me of Teyve in Fiddler on the Roof, and how things would be if only he were a rich man:

If I were rich, I'd have the time that I lack to sit in the synagogue and pray
And maybe have a seat by the Eastern wall
And I'd discuss the holy books with the learned men, several hours every day
And that would be the sweetest thing of all

I agree. But all the standard works would take a little while.

But once in a lifetime?

There are worse things than devoting a lifetime to scripture study AND be a working stiff like most of us.   Yep.

There could be worse things.  But could you remember that quote in Moroni from 20 years ago when it paralleled something in the OT?

Tough call imo.

Edited June 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[rongo]

On 6/21/2022 at 12:16 AM, mfbukowski said:

I agree. But all the standard works would take a little while.

But once in a lifetime?

There are worse things than devoting a lifetime to scripture study AND be a working stiff like most of us.   Yep.

There could be worse things.  But could you remember that quote in Moroni from 20 years ago when it paralleled something in the OT?

Tough call imo.

When I was first called as a bishop in 2007, my executive secretary gave me the Interpreter's Bible. It is a twelve volume set, with each volume being more than a thousand pages. A few months into my calling, my wife was hospitalized for months and had several major surgeries. Our kids were really young at the time, and when they were down for the night, I started reading and taking notes. I visited her daily, but also had a lot of alone time outside of the little kids, church, etc. (I exhausted my paid leave and then was on FMLA for a few months). I finished it in 2018, so it took me about 11 years. Now, I'm working on putting those notes into an index I can use. It was helpful when I did three radio shows on Mormonism (the "no other gods beside me" passages from Isaiah figured prominently in one of the episodes), and there is a lot of good exegesis in those twelve volumes. One of my favorite parts is the sermon notes, which have observations, insights, and stories (including some neat historical stories from around the world) that apply to the verses at hand. It's not uncommon for there to only be two or three verses on a page (KJV and RSV side-by-side, because the rest of the page has exegesis and sermon notes). There is a lot of really good talk material in there, but it can be hard to locate until I've fine-tuned my index. 

But, it's not a race. It took me about 12 years to read and compile my Journal of Discourses index, and that's also about 10,000 pages. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

It took me about 12 years to read and compile my Journal of Discourses index, and that's also about 10,000 pages. 

Have you made this publicly available anywhere? I'd love access!

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Have you made this publicly available anywhere? I'd love access!

What I call my "raw notes" is in a pidgin shorthand that I understand. At least it's searchable (yes, honorary Boomer that I am, I was Johnny-come-lately to the fact that Word docs are searchable. That was an amazing discovery!  ).

I sold out at a FAIR conference of my self-published batch of what was going to be volume 1 of a series of books on JoD topics (that one dealt with fallibility, blood atonement, debt, preparedness, and affliction). Volume 2 was going to have the First Vision, Adam-God, Zion society, and missionary work; but, there is really no market for it. People don't really read any more, and if/when they do, it's not old Church "history of thought" pieces. It was well worth it to me for the experience and for me and my posterity, anyway. 

Here's the introduction to volume 1:

---

 

 “Starting Right”[1]

Getting our Bearings on Journal of Discourses

 

Journal of Discourses is a 26 volume work of nearly 10,000 pages that contains material from Mormon Church leaders from 1851 to 1886 (with some earlier material from Joseph Smith). Although it has a certain mystique among interested Mormons and non-Mormons (those who refer to or quote from it), almost nobody has ever read any significant portions of it. Almost all knowledge or use of it is derivative; people quote from it based on others’ quotations from it, not from their own firsthand reading or experience with it. People’s perceptions about Journal of Discourses are accurately parodied (many a true word is spoken in jest) by some of Orson Scott Card’s entries in his Saintspeak: The Mormon Dictionary[2]:

 

Journal of Discourses --- A mammoth collection of speeches by General Authorities in the nineteenth century, containing many doctrines that were never taught in the Church . . . Today, however, there is no fear of ill effects from publishing the Journal of Discourses, for only Fundamentalists, anti-Mormons, and historians ever read it.

              

Blood atonement --- A doctrine that was never taught in the Church, especially by Brigham Young, Jedediah Grant, and Heber C. Kimball.

 

The overriding impression is that there are a lot of strange and contradictory things in Journal of Discourses that are a boon to critics of the Church and hard or impossible to explain (or explain away) by Church members.

 

The purpose of this series of books is much larger than simply dispelling these impressions, although that is one of the inevitable effects of looking at the total picture of the content of Journal of Discourses. A detailed look at the total contents in context uncovers an immense and untapped treasure trove of insightful observations, humor, useful explanations, original parables and allegories, and other material that is invaluable for preparing talks, serving in the Church, defending the Church, and simply widening one’s background knowledge of the Brethren during the first decades in Utah Territory. Despite the high quality of the material, most of it is almost completely unknown, even to people who are reasonably well-read in Church history. Much of the material is superior to the shop-worn and recycled quotes and anecdotes that have become mainstays in Church manuals and materials.

 

My grandfather gave me his mother’s well-marked set of Journal of Discourses in 2000 to look things up as I corresponded for about six months with an anti-Mormon in Webster, New York (John Farkas). When I discovered how effective using the full text and context with cherry-picked anti-Mormon proof-texts was, I decided to carefully read all 26 volumes and take detailed notes on anything of significance. My increasingly expansive involvement in LDS apologetics gave me a good perspective on things that are useful or important, but my service in the Church and what I was dealing with in Church callings during that time also made me aware of other important applications. During the time I read, compiled and organized my notes, I served as a ward mission leader (twice), elders quorum president (twice), and bishopric member (three times; currently serving as bishop). Once I had what I call my “raw notes” (a large three-ring binder with page numbers and pidgin shorthand notes by volume), I grouped the references into around 100 separate topical categories (e.g., missionary work, Adam-God statements, preparedness, polygamy, priesthood, blood atonement, marriage and parenting, etc.).

 

Other topics, while interesting, are too small to build major book sections around. For example, I noticed a recurring thread that convinces me that Sandra and Gerald Tanner got the idea for their book title Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? directly from Journal of Discourses. It’s simply too unique of a phrase, in my view, for them to have independently come up with it without being influenced by it.[3]

 

Have they knowledge? Go after it, and you will find an aching void, a shadow instead of substance, words which are wind, instead of realities.[4]

 

No doubt many of you have had your portraits penciled upon the canvas by the artist, and after he had drawn the outlines, without filling up or embellishing at all, you looked at it and said, "That is not myself, it does not look like me, it belongs to someone else." But when it came to be filled up and embellished, perhaps you were ready to own it. We have the shadows of things that are, and not the real things themselves, in many respects.[5]

 

What do men and women who turn away from the faith, as they occasionally do, turn to? To an empty sound, from a reality to a shadow.[6]

 

The religions of the day, independent of their moral worth, are nothing but a myth, a shadow; there is no reality in them . . . Take the other road, and you get a shadow for the time being, and you may think you have the substance, but sooner or later you are left as a feather floating in the air, or worse than a ship upon the ocean, without compass or rudder.[7]

 

We have got this kingdom to build up; and it is not a phantom, but a reality.[8]

 

In a similar vein, President Hinckley’s oft-repeated statement that the gospel makes bad men good and good men better seems to have been influenced by Journal of Discourses. There are other indications that President Hinckley was well-read in Church history, including some of the more arcane items, like Journal of Discourses, but note how closely this expression parallels items like these:

 

What are the fruits of this Gospel when it is received into the heart of an individual? It will make a bad man good, and a good man better.[9]

 

There is not a word or doctrine, of admonition, of instruction within its lids, but what agrees in sentiment and veracity with those of Christ and His Apostles, as contained in the Bible. Neither is there a word of counsel, of admonition or reproof within its lids, but what is calculated to make a bad man a good man, and a good man a better man, if he will hearken to it.[10]

 

Most topics are more “major” than such “smaller” ones. After identifying major topics, I then determined subtopics within each topic in order to organize the topic for commentary. I then drew upon my notes, files, and research to provide commentary and correlation for the subtopics and quotes.

 

While the apologetic applications are obvious, I find the Church leadership and devotional material to be much more important, applicable, and useful. I hope that this book series will make these obscure and unknown insights, explanations, and observations accessible and usable to interested people.

 

Journal of Discourses statistics

 

Journal of Discourses contains 1417 items, covering 9,776 pages. This total includes seven dedicatory prayers (Salt Lake Temple cornerstones, the Tabernacle, and the St. George and Logan temples), two court transcripts, nine 4th of July orations, eight 24th of July orations, two school opening orations, and a Christmas address to public works employees. 38 of the talks are funeral addresses, and 356 of the talks (25%) are General Conference addresses (including General Conference held in May for a few years and in venues other than Salt Lake City, such as Coalville, Logan, and Provo). [11]

 

There are 53 individuals who appear in Journal of Discourses, including 22 who appear only once, and another 16 who gave less than 15 talks. This makes roughly 90% of the material in Journal of Discourses the work of the “Big 15.” Among the “Big 15,” it’s interesting to compare the number of talks with the number of pages each covered:[12]

 

                                             Number of talks               Number of pages

1. Brigham Young                           387 (27%)                           2285 (23%)

2. John Taylor                                  166 (12%)                           1325 (14%)

3. Orson Pratt                                  124 (9%)                             1298 (13%)

4. George Q. Cannon                      111 (8%)                               924 (9%)

5. Heber C. Kimball                         110 (8%)                               517 (5%)

6. George A. Smith                            78 (6%)                               422 (4%)

7. Wilford Woodruff                        67 (5%)                               422 (4%)

8. Orson Hyde                                    49 (3%)                               272 (3%)

9. Erastus Snow                                 47 (3%)                               264 (3%)

10. Daniel H. Wells                           38 (3%)                               243 (2%)

11. Charles Penrose                          29 (2%)                               222 (2%)

12. Joseph F. Smith                           24 (2%)                               188 (2%)

13. Lorenzo Snow                             21 (2%)                               152 (1%)

14. Franklin D. Richards                   20 (1%)                               130 (1%)

15. Parley P. Pratt                             15 (1%)                               125 (1%)

 

The talks were recorded, with few exceptions[13], by trained stenographers who accurately reported what was said. Sometimes people are tempted, when dealing with criticisms using Journal of Discourses proof-texts, to explain away statements as possibly being recorded or published incorrectly. This is not only not the case, in my view, it is completely unnecessary to ever explain away anything in Journal of Discourses on the grounds that it was inaccurately recorded or reported.

 

George D. Watt, a British convert (and the first person baptized in the British mission) was the primary stenographer, and he began the project of publishing collected sermons in volumes in the Church’s publishing center in Liverpool, England.[14] Here is a breakdown of the stenographers and how many talks they were responsible for:

 

1. George D. Watt            544

2. David Evans                  264

3. George F. Gibbs            177

4. John Irvine                     135

5. J. V. Long                       108

6. E. L. Sloan                        18

7. John Grimshaw                 8

8. James Taylor                     7

9. John Q. Cannon                4

10. Rudger Clawson            4

11. James Hart                      3

12. Julia Young                      2

13. Leo Hawkins                   2

14. William Thurbood         1

15. J.B. Milner                       1

16. James D. Stirling            1

17. Masters Feramorz         1

18. C. G. Ferguson                1

19. Josiah Rogerson            1

20. John C. Graham             1

 

133 talks cannot be linked to a specific stenographer, and Joseph Smith’s King Follett Discourse was listed as reported by Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, William Clayton, and Wilford Woodruff.

 

Talk venues ranged across the spectrum. While most occurred in various locations in Salt Lake City (various ward meetinghouses, the Bowery, the Old Tablernacle [adobe], the New Tabernacle, the Assembly Hall, Big Cottonwood Canyon, temple cornerstones, Heber C. Kimball’s home, Church historian’s office, the public square, the new theater, the council house, the social hall, Utah Territory District Court, and the Young Men’s Literary Association hall), locations in Illinois (Commerce and Nauvoo for Joseph Smith talks), Idaho (Cache Valley, Paris, and Rexburg), and even England (Sheffield; a church conference) are included. Within Utah, locations outside of Salt Lake City appear as venues for talks in Journal of Discourses:  American Fork, Bear Lake, Beaver, Bountiful, Box Elder, Brigham City, Coalville, Ephraim, Farmington, Franklin, Grantsville, Hooperville, Hyde Park, Hyrum, Kaysville, Lehi, Logan, Manti, Mill Creek, Mount Pleasant, Nephi, Ogden, Paradise, Parowan, Payson, Provo, Richfield, Richmond, Springville, St. George, Tooele, Wellsville, and Willow Creek.               

 

Make-up of the volumes in this series

 

Because I want this work to be as accessible and usable as possible, I chose to divide the commentaries into multiple, smaller volumes. This reduces the printing cost and sales price for each volume, which hopefully will encourage people to decide to buy ones that capture their interest. I also chose to combine two or three major apologetic topics with several doctrinal, historical, devotional, and Church-related topics to give each volume variety in scope and range. This volume includes the topics of blood atonement, affliction, infallibility and blind obedience, temporal preparedness, and debt and credit. Other volumes will include such topics as (but not limited to):

 

---Adam-God statements              ---humor                                                           ---eternal progression

---marriage and parenting             ---nature of God                                             ---First Vision

---testimony and revelation          ---ministering of angels                                ---seeing God

---prayer                                            ---Civil War                                                      ---Stephen Douglas prophecies

---returning to Jackson County    ---Constitution hanging by a thread          ---politics

---missionary work                          ---blood of Israel                                            ---remnant of Lehi

---state of people without            ---Zion                                                               ---priesthood

    the gospel                                     ---blacks and the priesthood                       ---polygamy

---doctrine                                        ---background                                                 ---countercharges

---prophecies                                    ---Joseph Smith, occult, moneydigging    

 

Getting to know the Brethren

 

I look back on the years I spent reading, taking notes, organizing material, and sharing good insights or humorous comments with my wife with great fondness. If you read enough of a person’s written or spoken words, you get a good feel for their personality, temperament, and essence, and I feel that I have certain insights into the spirit and manner of both these men and their times and circumstances. I have come away from this project with a greater sense of appreciation for these men, the keys they held, and their unique and personal contributions to guiding the work of the Church in the decades between settling the Salt Lake Valley and the end of plural marriage. When I have shared quotes, stories, and insights from them with others in talks, trainings, counseling, and in personal conversation, people have expressed a desire for “more where those came from.” I think that people and the Church have much to gain by adding the largely untapped and unknown wisdom and insight of Journal of Discourses to their storehouse of reference material.

 

 

I hope you enjoy this book series as much I do, and I hope you find it as useful as I continue to find it.

 

[1] Joseph Smith famously noted in the King Follett Discourse: “If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong we may go wrong, and it will be a hard matter to get it right” (History of the Church 6:303). Having a proper grasp of the background and what Journal of Discourses is and isn’t is crucial in fully appreciating it and properly applying it.

[2] Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1981.

[3] While I have communicated with and received answers in the past from Sandra Tanner, I never received any response to the question of whether they had these quotes in mind when they chose the title.

[4] Brigham Young, May 26, 1872. Journal of Discourses 15:42

[5] Orson Hyde, January 19, 1873. Journal of Discourses 15:304

[6] Brigham Young, September 17, 1876. Journal of Discourses 18:232

[7] Brigham Young, June 17, 1877. Journal of Discourses 19:40

[8] John Taylor, August, 31, 1879. Journal of Discourses 21:8

[9] Brigham Young, July 11, 1869. Journal of Discourses 13:144

[10] Joseph F. Smith, April 6th, 1884. Journal of Discourses 25:100

[11] This was due to raids by federal marshals and many of the Brethren being in hiding.

[12] Page numbers were determined on a “winner-take-all” basis, with only one person being given credit for each page. This resulted in judgment calls in some instances when two people shared a page.

[13] The three talks by Joseph Smith are a notable exception. They were compiled using longhand notes by people present: Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton.

[14] B.H. Roberts made use of the fact that almost all Church materials were published outside of Utah Territory when an association of ministers published a written attack against a General Conference talk by President Joseph F. Smith in 1907. Among other things, the ministers claimed that “the Church deceitfully teaches one thing at home, and another abroad.” Roberts pointed out that all of the references in their review were published and disseminated outside of Utah: “Now where is the Millennial Star published? In Liverpool, England. Where were the Journal of Discourses published? In Liverpool, England. Where was The Seer published? In Washington, D.C. . . . So that your practical charge that we preach one set of doctrines and principles in Utah, and quite another in the world, and that we’re trying to play the double game of having one doctrine for home consumption and another for proclamation abroad, is as shallow as it is untrue” (B.H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints [Maasai: Provo, 2002], 553-554).