Ben Spackman’s thoughts on Sunday School

[bsjkki]

Anyone agree with this? Had to read it word to word to my spouse because our Sunday School lessons have devolved into sharing feelings. Plus, the narcissists dominate discussions. An unpleasant experience all around.  But, I can read scriptures during class. So in that way I use the time for my own learning. 
 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

We did learn some stuff about Judges in our sunday school class, and I was grateful for that.

I hear what Spackman is saying though.  It's very easy for Sunday school to become "personal experiences" time.  Which I usually enjoy a lot in theory but when it's the same person--with kind of odd ideas--that's always talking, it can get old.  Also, as a church, we are very good at what Nephi calls "likening the scriptures unto ourselves", and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  In fact, I think it can be very helpful and useful.  But it can also be overdone.

The scriptures also exist apart from ourselves, and they have their own context that has nothing to do with our cultures and personal agendas.  I think we've fallen in to the habit of only likening the scriptures to ourselves and mostly fail miserably at actually studying the books of scriptures on their own merits.

We don't have let the scriptures speak for themselves because we are so busy getting them to speak for us.  But I think both kinds of study are important.

[Chum]

43 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone agree with this?

Sure. I peg it to cases where ward members rarely find themselves together and in a position to discuss ancillary stuff.

[strappinglad]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The scriptures also exist apart from ourselves, and they have their own context that has nothing to do with our cultures

This for sure ! When one reads the OT as it is, all kinds of disturbing questions arise about the ideas and behavior of the people in the time and culture. Maybe that is why so few scriptures are presented in SS. 

[filovirus]

I taught the Gospel Doctrine lesson today at church. I spent the first 20 minutes talking about the background of the Book of Judges before we got into any type of discussion. But..we were just asked to cover 21 chapters in 50 minutes of lesson time. Members really should be studying at home if they want an in depth commentary that covers more than the surface.

[Pyreaux]

There are a ton of fun stuff in Judges, like that it was written by a later Deuteronomic scribe after the captivity (Judg 18:30), so it seems to depict the pre-incarnate Jesus as the "Angel of the Lord" who is the Lord (Angel Theophanies), the angel with a "secret" name showing that his name is ineffable, these appearances leading to the founding of a half a dozen sanctuaries/temples. You can totally fortify our beliefs against critics that are against temple building, errant scriptures, name theology etc. if you know where the proof texts are.

Judges even has God accepting human "blood atonement" like Sampson and the virgin Selia. Jews and Christians don't like that history but as I see it, its fundamentally important. If God cannot accept human blood for atonement, then Christ's "fully human" blood would not have been accepted either, there is a whole Jewish argument surrounding that issue.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Pyreaux

[LoudmouthMormon]

My ward's sunday school teachers are a husband and wife team, he is a California Jew, and she's a Minnesota Catholic redhead.  Both fiery converts with a lot of knowledge.  He once fought the correlation committee who were trying to keep him from throwing a passover supper as a church activity - and he won.  

Yeah, no, I don't share Ben Spackman's opinion here.

[Rain]

I like what he says and I am currently reading a lot of his stuff and things he recommends.  I'm newly called as a gospel doctrine teacher at a time when in my life it will be harder for me than any other time would have been.  I am fascinated by the different things I am learning.

As a teacher I can say though that Come Follow Me gives me practically nothing to help me teach and some of what it does give me I don't really like.  So as a teacher I feel kind of stuck because I am certainly not an OT expert and so I am extremely limited on how I can teach.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Rain

[JustAnAustralian]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

I am certainly not an OT expert and so I am extremely limited on how I can teach.

The Come Follow Me Insights youtube series with Taylor and Tyler (run by book of mormon central), might give you some discussion ideas.

 

In terms of Ben's comments, I guess it comes down to whether it's run as a "what did you think about the last two weeks?" discussion, or as a guided discussion about key parts of the reading. That's really going to come down to how well the Sunday School President is keeping an eye on how the lessons are going (and providing training where necessary).

[Navidad]

When I pastored I preached verse by verse through biblical passages. Every week . . . every Sunday. If I were to preach through the book of Judges, I would schedule it for a year at least of teaching every Sunday morning for an hour. I am not a member, but I attend Sunday School every Sunday. I find it incredibly devotional and light weight.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Navidad

[Peacefully]

I think it’s more fun to discuss in primary:) 

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The Come Follow Me Insights youtube series with Taylor and Tyler (run by book of mormon central), might give you some discussion ideas.

 

In terms of Ben's comments, I guess it comes down to whether it's run as a "what did you think about the last two weeks?" discussion, or as a guided discussion about key parts of the reading. That's really going to come down to how well the Sunday School President is keeping an eye on how the lessons are going (and providing training where necessary).

We get a lot of "what did you learn from that passage of scripture/story" which fills the time (and you get some good comments), but you tend to learn very little about what the writer of Judges was trying to teach, mostly because few who comment know the context of the stories or the Hebrew culture well enough to actually know what the writer was getting at.

Plus, we skip every controversial part of the text or verse as if it was infected with covid.   

[CV75]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone agree with this? Had to read it word to word to my spouse because our Sunday School lessons have devolved into sharing feelings. Plus, the narcissists dominate discussions. An unpleasant experience all around.  But, I can read scriptures during class. So in that way I use the time for my own learning. 
 

 

I assume by "our" he means his ward (???) and maybe the one he visited today, in which case he could be speaking with those who can do something about it. If he means "our" to refer to the worldwide Church general, I would say our class is a shining exception! Virtually every lesson begins with an appeal to the Spirit to help us understand the *scripture*.

I would say scriptural illiteracy and naive approaches among regular SS attendees are relative and the Spirit will help anyone advance in these areas if they are willing.

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I think it’s more fun to discuss in primary:) 

Especially the part about Jael and her nail.  (It rhymes well too).

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Especially the part about Jael and her nail.  (It rhymes well too).

I don’t know, the gang rape that caused a civil war or Jephthah offering his daughter as a burnt offering would definitely entertain the children.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

When I pastored I preached verse by verse through biblical passages. Every week . . . every Sunday. If I were to preach through the book of Judges, I would schedule it for a year at least of teaching every Sunday morning for an hour. I am not a member, but I attend Sunday School every Sunday. I find it incredibly devotional and light weight.

I remember a BYU speaker talking about himself or someone else (can't remember). He asked to study the OT with a Jewish rabbi for a year.  The rabbi said there was far too much material for a year.  I can't remember what they settled on, but the rabbi basically said a year was a pretty good time frame for the first verse.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Especially the part about Jael and her nail.  (It rhymes well too).

So learning about how much poetry and even puns are in the bible I'm wondering if they rhyme in hebrew as well.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I can read scriptures (and commentaries) by myself at home (and I do!).

When I'm with other people, I want to hear what they have learnt from both studying and living/applying the scriptures under discussion.

That's exactly what happened in the Sunday school class in my ward yesterday. One of the focuses of our class discussion was how ancient Israel (both collectively and individually) may have succumbed to being assimilated into their surrounding cultures and therefore what that should mean for us as Latter-day Saints as the gulf between us and our surrounding cultures widens. It was very practical and, for me, at least, resulted in both introspection and inspiration.

Helping to create a situation where we can all individually be instructed by the Holy Ghost is the aim of any good 'teacher' in the Church, in my opinion.

ETA: When I taught university classes, I always explained to my students that, since the invention of movable type, lectures made no sense. Instead, I expected students to read the assigned texts thoroughly and thoughtfully on their own time and then come prepared to contribute to a robust class discussion in which we would synthesise (and even critique) the readings. I expect the same thing in Sunday school. We certainly read passages from Judges yesterday, but for the most part, people made comments that indicated they had been reading and thinking at home. Excellent!

Edited June 6, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Fether]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Anyone agree with this? Had to read it word to word to my spouse because our Sunday School lessons have devolved into sharing feelings. Plus, the narcissists dominate discussions. An unpleasant experience all around.  But, I can read scriptures during class. So in that way I use the time for my own learning. 
 

 

He talks as if the entirety of our scriptural knowledge must come from Sunday school. What we learn in Sunday school should only be a tiny fraction of what our scriptural knowledge comes from.

If we lack scriptural understanding, it is our own faults, not Sunday school’s. He may not read judges for four more years, but others will read it. The loss of faith he is talking about is self induced.

You know what you can get in Sunday school that you can’t in scripture? Individual’s opinions and personal experience. Sunday school seems like the perfect place for those types of conversations.

[Rain]

21 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The Come Follow Me Insights youtube series with Taylor and Tyler (run by book of mormon central), might give you some discussion ideas.

 

In terms of Ben's comments, I guess it comes down to whether it's run as a "what did you think about the last two weeks?" discussion, or as a guided discussion about key parts of the reading. That's really going to come down to how well the Sunday School President is keeping an eye on how the lessons are going (and providing training where necessary).

Thank you for that source.  

Fortunately have no problem coming up with discussion ideas. I've dived head first into this.  I've bought multiple versions of the bible that Ben reccomended, books on how the bible was put together, listened to podcasts and watched videos.  So getting things to stick in my head which are not facts from here or there is hard for me, but I truly am enjoying the studying I am doing.  

It is the Come Follow Me lessons that I struggle with.  They give little to no context (and boy have I learned about context lately outside of Come Follow Me).  They kind of hop around from here to there.  

What I am saying is that if you want to have classes like Ben wants you have to start with a better lesson base.  

Edited June 6, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

He talks as if the entirety of our scriptural knowledge must come from Sunday school. What we learn in Sunday school should only be a tiny fraction of what our scriptural knowledge comes from.

If we lack scriptural understanding, it is our own faults, not Sunday school’s.

Funny thing - he has a video on context.  He has also recommended a book called "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes."  One thing you learn is that there is so much there you can't understand because you don't even begin to know what you don't know. 

I don't count this as "your own fault".  Even when people know there is more to find they have to have the intellectual ability, money for resources, internet, time etc to read all those outsources. I'm not saying the church should be all where gospel knowledge is concerned. I'm just saying I'm not going to make the judgement that it's all individual fault because we all have different capacities.

 

1 hour ago, Fether said:

He may not read judges for four more years, but others will read it. The loss of faith he is talking about is self induced.

You know what you can get in Sunday school that you can’t in scripture? Individual’s opinions and personal experience. Sunday school seems like the perfect place for those types of conversations.

 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

He talks as if the entirety of our scriptural knowledge must come from Sunday school. What we learn in Sunday school should only be a tiny fraction of what our scriptural knowledge comes from.

If we lack scriptural understanding, it is our own faults, not Sunday school’s. He may not read judges for four more years, but others will read it. The loss of faith he is talking about is self induced.

You know what you can get in Sunday school that you can’t in scripture? Individual’s opinions and personal experience. Sunday school seems like the perfect place for those types of conversations.

And places like this forum when we don't get distraught with each other.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

My ward's sunday school teachers are a husband and wife team, he is a California Jew, and she's a Minnesota Catholic redhead.  Both fiery converts with a lot of knowledge.  He once fought the correlation committee who were trying to keep him from throwing a passover supper as a church activity - and he won.  

Yeah, no, I don't share Ben Spackman's opinion here.

Are you assuming this is a common approach in the Church, that most wards and branches have teachers that have a strong background of scriptural literacy? 

[Fether]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

Funny thing - he has a video on context.  He has also recommended a book called "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes."  One thing you learn is that there is so much there you can't understand because you don't even begin to know what you don't know. 

I don't count this as "your own fault".  Even when people know there is more to find they have to have the intellectual ability, money for resources, internet, time etc to read all those outsources. I'm not saying the church should be all where gospel knowledge is concerned. I'm just saying I'm not going to make the judgement that it's all individual fault because we all have different capacities.

 

 

Great insight. I agree completely. Scripture alone often is not enough to help us fully understand what is being taught. My point was that those in charge of what ends up being only a weekly 40ish minute discussion on scripture are not the ones responsible, in the least bit, for peoples lack of scriptural literacy.

[filovirus]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

Thank you for that source.  

Fortunately have no problem coming up with discussion ideas. I've dived head first into this.  I've bought multiple versions of the bible that Ben reccomended, books on how the bible was put together, listened to podcasts and watched videos.  So getting things to stick with are not facts from here or there is hard for me, but I truly am enjoying the studying I am doing.  

It is the Come Follow Me lessons that I struggle with.  They give little to no context (and boy have I learned about context lately outside of Come Follow Me).  They kind of hop around from here to there.  

What I am saying is that if you want to have classes like Ben wants you have to start with a better lesson base.  

The lessons for Sunday school are awful. But they are short, so a teacher can really tailor the lesson into anything that the spirit directs. This gives a ton of leeway when preparing a lesson. I like this method a lot better than the handholding that lesson plans from 20 years ago use to give. But it does put a lot more pressure on the teachers to know their stuff.