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Can we talk about the mass shootings in America?


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10 hours ago, Calm said:

But guns are more likely to be used in impulsive killings than something that requires planning…and yes, a baseball bat can be grabbed in anger and kill someone, but it takes more effort, more time and they have to be within arm’s reach. Guns are harder to defend against when unprepared than a baseball bat, harder to get out of reach, more likely to cause collateral damage…a stray bullet goes a long way before it no longer harms, a stray swing from a baseball bat or knife, not so far.

Killings won’t stop, but they will become less frequent.

https://www.vox.com/2016/2/29/11120184/2016-gun-control-study-epidemiologic-reviews-deaths

It would appear that not only does reducing the presence of guns contribute to lowering gun homicides and suicides, they actually might be lowering the nongun homicides and suicides that you are positing if I understand you correctly would replace many of the gun deaths…so in your theory, these nongun deaths should be rising with gun restrictions…and yet it appears they are not.

It's hard to say. These studies-of-studies kinds of papers are not terribly useful. Once you start looking at multiple countries you run into all kinds of methodological problems which makes the data almost completely useless. 

For example, say a country passes strong gun laws and then somebody plows through a crowd at a parade with their pickup truck. Instead of reporting those fatalities as homicides the country will instead characterize them as 'domestic terrorism' and leave them off their homicide statistics - see, the policies work!

Seriously though, most of the proposals in that paper are already present here in America. Fully automatic weapons technically aren't illegal, but they are extremely rare, strictly regulated, and are never used in crimes (except for, quite literally, only one or two occasions in all of recorded history). We have background checks in place as well. Many states have waiting laws to try and reduce impulsive killings. I'm not sure how effective that practice is, but I'm not against it. Could more be done? Possibly. I'm open to suggestions.

Here's the reality though: in our country, guns are never going away. 

Like I mentioned earlier, alcohol causes way more deaths each year than guns. We tried banning alcohol before - it didn't work. In fact, it more than didn't work; it was a flippin' disaster. What makes anyone think that trying the same thing, only with taking away guns, is going to go any better?

 

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wouldn’t call that percentage particularly meangingful.

You don't think 50% of mass killings being stopped by civilians is a meaningful percentage? Okay. 

 

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It does show what I was saying though and that was that the 2nd Amendment wasn’t interpreted it as an individual right to own a firearm independent of the local militia until very recently.

I'm going on vacation, so I don't have time to get into it, but you're simply wrong on that particular case. It's more about the 1st and 14th amendments than the 2nd. 

 

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They are words. They mean what we choose them to mean. We changed our mind in the last few decades.

Agree to disagree. 

 

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Kingmen and freemen in the Book of Mormon both fought for freedom. It is the type of freedom that matters, not views on what is better.

Okay. Have a good weekend. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Amulek said:

But even people living in poverty make decisions based on what they think is in their best interest.

Sure. When income is 80% of basic bills, which of the following - electricity, water, housing, food, medicine, transportation - are in their best interest?

38 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And when push comes to shove, if they haven't moved (or aren't in the process of moving) then that means they value the benefits associated with their current circumstances more than the costs associated with staying where they are.

Not precisely. It more likely means they don't have the $4k cash (2019 est) on hand required to fund a move. This assumes they're fortunate enough to have found an affordable destination where all of their basic needs (transportation, employment, support, etc) exist in sufficient quantities.

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:
13 hours ago, Amulek said:

but the aggregate pattern seems to be that civilian self-defense takes place in a meaningful percentage of active shooter incidents. 

I wouldn’t call that percentage particularly meangingful.

Citizens acting to save others around them and taking out the active shooter thankfully happens more often than not.  This should be considered substantially significant!

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29 minutes ago, longview said:

Citizens acting to save others around them and taking out the active shooter thankfully happens more often than not.  This should be considered substantially significant!

do people like you thank children who lay down their lives so that the protection for others to bear arms still exists? Why are so you indifferent to slaughter of Americans? That's troubling

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On 5/26/2022 at 4:33 PM, rodheadlee said:

So what is the root causes of these mass shootings?

1) Easy gun access 

2)Single family home 

3)Information overload at too young of an age

4)Lack of God in family life 

5)Lack of God in public life 

6)Violent TV and video games available to youngsters 

Comments?

Man, I missed this somehow when scanning topics. 

I'm on 1.....though 1 is over simplified. It's access + amount of guns + lack of regulation of current gun owners etc. Honestly it seems somewhat dumb to pretend otherwise. Dumb's probably a strong word. But I find those who are most resistant to looking at the problem of gun ownership in the US are usually those who benefit or are strongly adjacent to gun cultural narratives that are propped up to maintain not really acknowledging the cost of said gun ownership as we currently maintain it. Of course a person could say the reverse to me. Though I'm not that far removed from gun owners (my parents are ones, as sibling is, and a few of my friends I believe, for example) I personally will never own a gun. 

 

The rest are not very distinctive from other countries. Other countries have far lower religious intonations in public or private life....and don't have the same degree of gun violence problems.

Other countries have violent video games....and don't have high gun violence

Other countries have similar percentages of single-parent households....and don't have high gun violence. 

No developed country, has this degree of gun violence. Some have greater access....but this access is still often more regulated. And none have as high of quantity of guns.  

 

Regulate guns/slow production and sales/re-sell to regulated 3rd parties, reduce gun ownership to those who can safely manage and store guns/have no current red flag issues (suicidal ideation, history of violence, recent criminal record etc), reduce or remove access to certain types of guns, and have a system in place that insists on renewal of permits to maintain gun ownership....and I'd be shocked if our current numbers today in homicide, suicide, and mass shootings stayed the same. 

 

With luv,

BD

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3 hours ago, Duncan said:

do people like you thank children who lay down their lives so that the protection for others to bear arms still exists? Why are so you indifferent to slaughter of Americans? That's troubling

Your response is incoherent and disjointed.  I know of no one that would thank the little ones for being caught in a mass killing.  Why would you even say that I am indifferent?  I think you are going way overboard.  Maybe Nehor can give you some therapy.

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32 minutes ago, longview said:

Your response is incoherent and disjointed.  I know of no one that would thank the little ones for being caught in a mass killing.  Why would you even say that I am indifferent?  I think you are going way overboard.  Maybe Nehor can give you some therapy.

I'm overboard and you don't care one whit about dead children? You're sick and with this attitude the slaughter of your young ones will continue. It's your country's continual funeral, not mine

Edited by Duncan
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5 hours ago, longview said:

Citizens acting to save others around them and taking out the active shooter thankfully happens more often than not.  This should be considered substantially significant!

There is no way to get 50% of mass shootings stopped by civilians out of that report. I have no idea where that statement came from.

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