Dallas Jenkins Walking a Tightrope

[smac97]

Here: ‘The Chosen’ creator Dallas Jenkins clarifies his ‘Mormons are Christians’ comments

Quote

Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, “The Chosen,” said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians.

Hmm.  He kinda . . . doesn't "set the record straight."  But I'm rather okay with what he says.

Quote

Throughout the years, Jenkins has mentioned that he has friends who belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS church), among them being the brothers who launched Angel Studios, the streaming platform behind “The Chosen." However, Jenkins, the son of Jerry B. Jenkins, the writer behind the bestselling Left Behind franchise, has repeatedly said the studio owners' beliefs have nothing to do with the content in the series. 

In a video posted on YouTube Thursday, Jenkins addressed various rumors about his views concerning Mormonism and its connection to “The Chosen,” a popular multi-season series about the life of Jesus Christ that has been viewed nearly 400 million times worldwide.

Those "rumors" are apparently that The Chosen is "produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."  This probably arose from the series using the Church's "Jerusalem" set in Goshen, Utah.

Here is where Dallas gets to the point (particularly the last paragraph) :

Quote

“I probably need to add a little clarification to the LDS question when it comes to ‘The Chosen,’” Jenkins said at the top of his video. “The reason that I want to give this statement, or this comment, and have it be my final comment on the matter is because I've given dozens and dozens of comments about it that seemed to be unfortunately ignored by several people.”

The filmmaker then shared questions he's been asked to respond to based on news articles that claimed such things as, "Dallas Jenkins says Mormons, LDS and Evangelicals love the same Jesus" and "LDS are Christians.” 

"Is it true that I said that? The answer is no, I did not,” Jenkins said, adding that some of his past comments on this topic need more nuance and could have been misinterpreted.

"I think we can agree that words matter, nuance matters, and I probably could have given more context and clarity,” he said. “I've done hundreds and hundreds of interviews and written thousands of things about my faith and about the faith of others, and I try very hard to be nuanced. I try very hard to be cautious and wise and clarify every word that I use, but I don't always succeed. I think it's fair to say that this is one where I don't take back what I said, but I could have given it a little bit more clarity.”

"I think it's also true that it would be a problem if I actually said those words definitively,” Jenkins added. “That would be a problem, and here's why: Not because there aren't LDS folks who aren't Christians and not because there aren't LDS and Evangelicals who love the same Jesus, but because it would be wrong of me to ever say that any one group believes any one thing altogether. That is just a level of arrogance that I don't have.” 

I think he's trying to distance himself from the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing by refusing to adjudicate the Christianness of the entirety of the Church and its members.

I think I'm pretty okay with that.  The "Do Mormons worship the same Jesus we do" seems to be mostly an issue for some segments of Evangelical Christianity.  My sense is that these folks want to both

(A) make the boundaries of being "Christian" very loosey-goosey (perhaps for ecumenical reasons, or because they subscribe to some sort of "all you need is to profess Jesus and you're saved"-style belief), 

-AND ALSO-

(B) make sure the Latter-day Saints are not within these loosey-goosey boundaries (perhaps because these segments of Evangelical Christianity aren't quite willing to take ecumenicalism that far).

Thus we get the "No True Scotsman"-style equivocation exercise inherent in the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing, summarized as follows:

• Jack: Anyone who professes belief in Jesus is a Christian, and is therefore saved.
• Jill: I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I profess belief in Jesus.
• Jack: Ah, no.  Anyone who professes belief in the real Jesus is a Christian.
• Jill: But . . . that's me.  I believe in Jesus.
• Jack: No, you believe in "another Jesus."  Just like what Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 11:4.  You preach "another Jesus."
• Jill: I "preach" the Jesus described in the Bible.  The one born of Mary, taken to Egypt as a child, later baptized in the River Jordan by John the Baptist, the Son of God, who walked on water, turned water to wine, multiplied the loaves and fishes, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught multitudes, and was in the end crucified for the sins of the world.  The whole nine yards.  That is the being whom I worship.
• Jack: You preach the "Jesus" of The Book of Mormon.
• Jill: And that Jesus is not numerically distinct from the Jesus described in the Bible.  The "Jesus" in the Bible is the same "Jesus" described in The Book of Mormon.
• Jack: No, that's not so.  You worship another.
• Jill: How is it you think you can ascertain whether I worship the Jesus of the Bible, as opposed to "another Jesus?"
• Jack:You're a Mormon.
• Jill: And as a "Mormon" I am telling you I worship the Jesus described in the Bible.
• Jack: No, you don't.
• Jill: Yes, I do.
• Jack: No, you don't.

And round and round we go...

Dallas Jenkins is more or less right.  It is presumptuous and arrogant for anyone to summarily adjudicate the Christianness of an entire group.

Quote

Jenkins assured that people who make blanket statements cause problems because of the labels that are assigned to groups overall.

"It would be just as dumb for me to say that all LDS are Christians as it would be to say that all Evangelicals are Christians or that all Catholics are Christians or any other faith tradition,” he continued. “It would also be dumb of me to say that none are! That's also a level of arrogance that I don't possess.”

I get what he's trying to say, but he sort of ends up stepping into the No True Scotsman thing again when he says ""It would be just as dumb for me to say that all LDS are Christians..."

The Latter-day Saints are Christians.  The worship the Jesus of the Bible.  

Quote

"When I've talked about my brothers and sisters in Christ, and when I talked about those LDS folks that I know who loved the same Jesus I do, I'm referring to some of the friends that I have who identify as LDS who I've gotten to know very deeply over the last few years, in particular. And I've had hundreds of hours of conversations with [them], and I stand by the statement that those friends of mine that I'm referring to absolutely love the same Jesus that I do,” he said.

I think Dallas is tacitly equivocating a bit here by shifting the definition of "Christian" a bit.  Is he seriously suggesting that some Latter-day Saints "love the same Jesus" he does, but that other Latter-day Saints worship someone else?  "Another Jesus" numerically distinct from the one described in the New Testament?  If so, what does he think is the biography of this numerically distinct fellow?  Where was he born?  When?  To whom?  Where did he grow up?  What did he do that was particularly miraculous or noteworthy?

Quote

"You may still go, 'Well, that can't be true,' and that's your right to think that,” Jenkins added. “But it's not fair to say, 'Oh, then you are now speaking about everybody.' I know plenty of Evangelicals who I would say don't know the same Jesus that I do and don't love the same Jesus that I do.”

Oi.  He's equivocating with his fellow Evangelicals too.  

The "Mormons worship a different Jesus" trope just doesn't work (nor does the apparent "Evangelicals who don't think sufficiently like I do worship a different Jesus" thing he's presenting above).  It is incoherent and untenable.

This next part is good:

Quote

The series writer and creator maintained that he has Mormon friends who believe in “Jesus of Nazareth, the Jesus of the Gospels, the Jesus that I’m portraying in the show, and I do believe and do stand by that statement.”

Would that he had just said this and left it there.

Quote

Jenkins further stressed that he alone is responsible for the content in “The Chosen” and is inspired by the Bible. 

"I've said many times the content of the show has zero influence or input from any form of faith tradition or church. None,” he added.

Jenkins continued: "I'm a conservative Evangelical. I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. I believe in the supremacy of God's Word. I believe in the Holy Trinity. I believe in God the Father, the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, and believe that Jesus is the Son of God and all of the core tenants of Scripture.” 

Hmm.  Here it sounds like Dallas feels that his Christianness is being questioned/disputed.  I suspect that questioning is due in part to his rubbing shoulders with, and acknowledging the Christianness of, his Latter-day Saint friends.

Anyway, thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 22, 2022 by smac97

[rpn]

However he may feel personally, the fact is that his enterprise is oriented to Christians who have long declared that members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ  aren't Christian because we don't accept the Nicene Creed.  His use of the set in Goshen and UTAH references have no doubt been troublesome for many of the Chosen supporters who are in that camp (which likely is why he couldn't keep using the Goshen site and left for TX, even if the they could have stayed (it was described from the first as temporary and having to do with what is at the set in terms of buildings.  Jesus didn't spend a whole lot of time in Jerusalem (at least in the Biblical record), after all.)

.

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here: ‘The Chosen’ creator Dallas Jenkins clarifies his ‘Mormons are Christians’ comments

Hmm.  He kinda . . . doesn't "set the record straight."  But I'm rather okay with what he says.

Those "rumors" are apparently that The Chosen is "produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."  This probably arose from the series using the Church's "Jerusalem" set in Goshen, Utah.

Here is where Dallas gets to the point (particularly the last paragraph) :

I think he's trying to distance himself from the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing by refusing to adjudicate the Christianness of the entirety of the Church and its members.

I think I'm pretty okay with that.  The "Do Mormons worship the same Jesus we do" seems to be mostly an issue for some segments of Evangelical Christianity.  My sense is that these folks want to both

(A) make the boundaries of being "Christian" very loosey-goosey (perhaps for ecumenical reasons, or because they subscribe to some sort of "all you need is to profess Jesus and you're saved"-style belief), 

-AND ALSO-

(B) make sure the Latter-day Saints are not within these loosey-goosey boundaries (perhaps because these segments of Evangelical Christianity aren't quite willing to take ecumenicalism that far).

Thus we get the "No True Scotsman"-style equivocation exercise inherent in the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing, summarized as follows:

• Jack: Anyone who professes belief in Jesus is a Christian, and is therefore saved.
• Jill: I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I profess belief in Jesus.
• Jack: Ah, no.  Anyone who professes belief in the real Jesus is a Christian.
• Jill: But . . . that's me.  I believe in Jesus.
• Jack: No, you believe in "another Jesus."  Just like what Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 11:4.  You preach "another Jesus."
• Jill: I "preach" the Jesus described in the Bible.  The one born of Mary, taken to Egypt as a child, later baptized in the River Jordan by John the Baptist, the Son of God, who walked on water, turned water to wine, multiplied the loaves and fishes, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught multitudes, and was in the end crucified for the sins of the world.  The whole nine yards.  That is the being whom I worship.
• Jack: You preach the "Jesus" of The Book of Mormon.
• Jill: And that Jesus is not numerically distinct from the Jesus described in the Bible.  The "Jesus" in the Bible is the same "Jesus" described in The Book of Mormon.
• Jack: No, that's not so.  You worship another.
• Jill: How is it you think you can ascertain whether I worship the Jesus of the Bible, as opposed to "another Jesus?"
• Jack:You're a Mormon.
• Jill: And as a "Mormon" I am telling you I worship the Jesus described in the Bible.
• Jack: No, you don't.
• Jill: Yes, I do.
• Jack: No, you don't.

And round and round we go...

Dallas Jenkins is more or less right.  It is presumptuous and arrogant for anyone to summarily adjudicate the Christianness of an entire group.

I get what he's trying to say, but he sort of ends up stepping into the No True Scotsman thing again when he says ""It would be just as dumb for me to say that all LDS are Christians..."

The Latter-day Saints are Christians.  The worship the Jesus of the Bible.  

I think Dallas is tacitly equivocating a bit here by shifting the definition of "Christian" a bit.  Is he seriously suggesting that some Latter-day Saints "love the same Jesus" he does, but that other Latter-day Saints worship someone else?  "Another Jesus" numerically distinct from the one described in the New Testament?  If so, what does he think is the biography of this numerically distinct fellow?  Where was he born?  When?  To whom?  Where did he grow up?  What did he do that was particularly miraculous or noteworthy?

Oi.  He's equivocating with his fellow Evangelicals too.  

The "Mormons worship a different Jesus" trope just doesn't work (nor does the apparent "Evangelicals who don't think sufficiently like I do worship a different Jesus" thing he's presenting above).  It is incoherent and untenable.

This next part is good:

Would that he had just said this and left it there.

Hmm.  Here it sounds like Dallas feels that his Christianness is being questioned/disputed.  I suspect that questioning is due in part to his rubbing shoulders with, and acknowledging the Christianness of, his Latter-day Saint friends.

Anyway, thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I think he's making the same point that Stephen Robinson made in his Ensign article decades ago about who belongs to the church of the devil--

"Individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records."

I think that Dallas is saying that he's not going to suggest that everyone in a religion belongs to either Jesus or the Devil (is either Christian or not, worships the right Jesus, or a false one), because that depends on where the person's heart is, not on which church they belong to.

And if that's what he's saying, then I think that makes a lot of sense and is both coherent and tenable.  

[Fether]

 Protestantism can either be extremely accepting or atrociously cliquish. He will never make his own people happy.

[LoudmouthMormon]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

friends that I have who identify as LDS

Gotta love the subtle shifting in language that has impacted all of us.  Every day that goes by is another ten thousand humans who don't know how fresh the whole "identify as" notion is to culture.

[LoudmouthMormon]

I remember a few years back, posting in the now-defunct Catholic Answers Forum, 'non-Catholic religions' subforum.   About 70% talking about me and mine.   I posted about the Vatican's archive digitization project, and how part of the project involved a digital archiving project run by Mormons out of BYU.  Folks wondered aloud if we weren't going to "insert mormon lies" into the Vatican archives.  

Later, I posted that iconic picture of president Nelson meeting the Pope.  Never saw so much Pope hate in a Catholic forum in my life (except for the forums run by Catholic conservatives.)

We just seem to make life hard for mainstream branches of Christianity, by our very existence. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

His dad is a terrible writer.

[pogi]

@Navidad would have set the record straight for his fellow Evangelicals without equivocation.  Then his inbox would have been flooded with both hate mail and appreciation.

[OGHoosier]

Honestly, I can't blame the guy. The Chosen was only possible because it was crowdfunded. Jenkins is pioneering a new media model here, and I think America badly needs some more decentralized media like it. The downside, however, is that he has to be more careful about ticking off his base than most politicians. 

Given the state of public opinion in America right now, I'll apply the Savior's words in Mark 9:40: "whoever is not against us is for us." 

One way or another I anticipate the Evangelicals as a group will realize that.

Edited May 22, 2022 by OGHoosier

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Honestly, I can't blame the guy. The Chosen was only possible because it was crowdfunded. Jenkins is pioneering a new media model here, and I think America badly needs some more decentralized media like it. The downside, however, is that he has to be more careful about ticking off his base than most politicians. 

Given the state of public opinion in America right now, I'll apply the Savior's words in Mark 9:40: "whoever is not against us is for us." 

One way or another I anticipate the Evangelicals as a group will realize that.

Unless they win. Then they will look around and realize:

[CV75]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here: ‘The Chosen’ creator Dallas Jenkins clarifies his ‘Mormons are Christians’ comments

Hmm.  He kinda . . . doesn't "set the record straight."  But I'm rather okay with what he says.

Those "rumors" are apparently that The Chosen is "produced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."  This probably arose from the series using the Church's "Jerusalem" set in Goshen, Utah.

Here is where Dallas gets to the point (particularly the last paragraph) :

I think he's trying to distance himself from the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing by refusing to adjudicate the Christianness of the entirety of the Church and its members.

I think I'm pretty okay with that.  The "Do Mormons worship the same Jesus we do" seems to be mostly an issue for some segments of Evangelical Christianity.  My sense is that these folks want to both

(A) make the boundaries of being "Christian" very loosey-goosey (perhaps for ecumenical reasons, or because they subscribe to some sort of "all you need is to profess Jesus and you're saved"-style belief), 

-AND ALSO-

(B) make sure the Latter-day Saints are not within these loosey-goosey boundaries (perhaps because these segments of Evangelical Christianity aren't quite willing to take ecumenicalism that far).

Thus we get the "No True Scotsman"-style equivocation exercise inherent in the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing, summarized as follows:

• Jack: Anyone who professes belief in Jesus is a Christian, and is therefore saved.
• Jill: I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I profess belief in Jesus.
• Jack: Ah, no.  Anyone who professes belief in the real Jesus is a Christian.
• Jill: But . . . that's me.  I believe in Jesus.
• Jack: No, you believe in "another Jesus."  Just like what Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 11:4.  You preach "another Jesus."
• Jill: I "preach" the Jesus described in the Bible.  The one born of Mary, taken to Egypt as a child, later baptized in the River Jordan by John the Baptist, the Son of God, who walked on water, turned water to wine, multiplied the loaves and fishes, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught multitudes, and was in the end crucified for the sins of the world.  The whole nine yards.  That is the being whom I worship.
• Jack: You preach the "Jesus" of The Book of Mormon.
• Jill: And that Jesus is not numerically distinct from the Jesus described in the Bible.  The "Jesus" in the Bible is the same "Jesus" described in The Book of Mormon.
• Jack: No, that's not so.  You worship another.
• Jill: How is it you think you can ascertain whether I worship the Jesus of the Bible, as opposed to "another Jesus?"
• Jack:You're a Mormon.
• Jill: And as a "Mormon" I am telling you I worship the Jesus described in the Bible.
• Jack: No, you don't.
• Jill: Yes, I do.
• Jack: No, you don't.

And round and round we go...

Dallas Jenkins is more or less right.  It is presumptuous and arrogant for anyone to summarily adjudicate the Christianness of an entire group.

I get what he's trying to say, but he sort of ends up stepping into the No True Scotsman thing again when he says ""It would be just as dumb for me to say that all LDS are Christians..."

The Latter-day Saints are Christians.  The worship the Jesus of the Bible.  

I think Dallas is tacitly equivocating a bit here by shifting the definition of "Christian" a bit.  Is he seriously suggesting that some Latter-day Saints "love the same Jesus" he does, but that other Latter-day Saints worship someone else?  "Another Jesus" numerically distinct from the one described in the New Testament?  If so, what does he think is the biography of this numerically distinct fellow?  Where was he born?  When?  To whom?  Where did he grow up?  What did he do that was particularly miraculous or noteworthy?

Oi.  He's equivocating with his fellow Evangelicals too.  

The "Mormons worship a different Jesus" trope just doesn't work (nor does the apparent "Evangelicals who don't think sufficiently like I do worship a different Jesus" thing he's presenting above).  It is incoherent and untenable.

This next part is good:

Would that he had just said this and left it there.

Hmm.  Here it sounds like Dallas feels that his Christianness is being questioned/disputed.  I suspect that questioning is due in part to his rubbing shoulders with, and acknowledging the Christianness of, his Latter-day Saint friends.

Anyway, thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I think we pay a different kind of tithe, though.

[Navidad]

Wow, now you all are on my turf. My comments are as follows:

1. You wont understand his (Jenkins') replies unless you understand his Evangelical perspective that only individuals are or can be Christians. Someone else who you all know and love (not) has been saying the same thing on this forum for years. You will often hear that Christ didn't die for groups, churches, institutions, or companies in an Evangelical sermon. For several years I was on a tour speaking to "Christian" companies. I strongly disagreed even while doing so that a company could be Christian. It would be completely contrary to Evangelical theology to posit that all members of any group are Christians. That has very little if anything to do with the group itself. Evangelicals are very strong in our belief that people come to Christ and His atonement one person at a time at a point it time. Being a Christian is not now, nor ever has been a group thing. It is, for an Evangelical a one person at a time thing. It is also not an ordinance thing. For Evangelicals, ordinances are not salvific. They are testimonial of an apriori salvation experience. Babies are often "dedicated" just as LDS babies are "blessed." I see very little difference in that ordinance as I have observed it in both groups.

2. I know of no Evangelical (of the 20th or 21st century) who believes or has ever taught that someone is not a Christian because they do not believe in or confess the Nicene Creed, or any other creed for that matter. I find that to be a rather prevalent and mistaken LDS myth. I do not confess or believe in the Nicene Creed or any other Creed. A significant majority of Protestants, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, and Fundamentalist Christians are not creedalists. A Nicene Creed confessionalist would have to agree that baptism is salvific. Very few in the preceding list believe that. There might be some in the Anglican Evangelical community who are creedalists, but I don't know any who are. I have never been given any grief or denied to speak in a pulpit because I am not a creedalist.

3. Jerry Jenkins is exactly my age and has a Fundamentalist turned Evangelical background. He is the father of the guy (who is a bit too self-promoting for me) who is the guru behind the Chosen series. The folks in our ward really like the Chosen series. I hear them talking about it all the time. Jerry Jenkins was a dispensationalist most of his life and was quite connected to the Moody Press and Bible Institute/College.  Dwight Moody was a 19th century evangelist who twice preached in the big Tabernacle in SLC. Rick Turley is an authority on Dwight Moody and his relationship with Brigham Young and his preaching in a packed-out tabernacle. Most dispensationalists were in the Fundamentalist groups. Some of them were anti-LDS. If it helps they were also often anti-Evangelical as well.

4. When I speak to non-LDS Christian groups about Mormonism, I strongly assure them that I believe that many if not most Mormons are Christians. When I speak or lecture to groups about religion here in Mexico they are often groups that are predominantly Catholic or those who would profess they are of no particular faith, but have to come to my class as a requirement for the licentiatura credential. The last group was three Saturdays ago, before I fell and got a concussion. After I was all done, the moderator of the group asked me to take an additional fifteen minutes to explain "Mormons" and "Mennonites" to the group. There is a great fascination with both groups in northern and central Mexico. I told this particular group of folks that I couldn't explain my own faith in fifteen minutes! Then I proceeded to go on for another thirty minutes! No one on this forum would be surprised by my wordiness! Ha! I find a generalized concept that both are Anglo or "North American" faiths. I keep several PowerPoint slides handy to dispel that.

5. In summary, please try and remove your own filters and understand that salvation is an individual and aorist (point-in-time) experience for Evangelicals, Pentecostals (most), Fundamentalists, Anabaptists, and many main-line Protestants. Sanctification is the process that then may or may not take place in and over the lifetime of the believer. Sanctification is continual growth in the Spirit which we expect to continue into the eternities. Sanctification is not salvific; it presupposes salvation (aorist - point in time).

Our friend @pogi is right. I won't equivocate to any group that I absolutely affirm that most LDS folks are Christians. The unique thing is that my criteria for such a claim might be a bit different from your own. I would however use language that my Evangelical friends could understand. I once was told by a nice lady that she was surprised that I could pray in Mormon! I prefer however to preach to Evangelicals in Evangelicalese! Best to all.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, CV75 said:

Thus we get the "No True Scotsman"-style equivocation exercise inherent in the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing, summarized as follows:

• Jack: Anyone who professes belief in Jesus is a Christian, and is therefore saved.
• Jill: I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I profess belief in Jesus.
• Jack: Ah, no.  Anyone who professes belief in the real Jesus is a Christian.
• Jill: But . . . that's me.  I believe in Jesus.
• Jack: No, you believe in "another Jesus."  Just like what Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 11:4.  You preach "another Jesus."
• Jill: I "preach" the Jesus described in the Bible.  The one born of Mary, taken to Egypt as a child, later baptized in the River Jordan by John the Baptist, the Son of God, who walked on water, turned water to wine, multiplied the loaves and fishes, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught multitudes, and was in the end crucified for the sins of the world.  The whole nine yards.  That is the being whom I worship.
• Jack: You preach the "Jesus" of The Book of Mormon.
• Jill: And that Jesus is not numerically distinct from the Jesus described in the Bible.  The "Jesus" in the Bible is the same "Jesus" described in The Book of Mormon.
• Jack: No, that's not so.  You worship another.
• Jill: How is it you think you can ascertain whether I worship the Jesus of the Bible, as opposed to "another Jesus?"
• Jack:You're a Mormon.
• Jill: And as a "Mormon" I am telling you I worship the Jesus described in the Bible.
• Jack: No, you don't.
• Jill: Yes, I do.
• Jack: No, you don't.

And round and round we go...

Sorry my friend. I don't agree with you that the normalization contained in your exercise is "inherent" in the "Mormons aren't Christian thing. I think you may be stuck in the fifties and sixties/twentieth century-Walter Martin/Fundamentalist era of discussions. Methinks you will find the majority of twenty-first Evangelicalism very different than what you are describing. Even back in the late fifties, early Evangelicals were openly and negatively critiquing the manner and method of Martin and others like them. I know I have said this before, but you all will add much more credibility to your apologetics if you can begin to see the distinctions between Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Dallas Jenkins in a mainstream Evangelical. His dad, Jerry started out as a Fundamentalist dispensationalist and migrated to Evangelicalism (probably still dispensational - I don't really know) just like many of the rest of us did. I haven't seen anything new from him in terms of writing for several years.  Oh, and how is the LDS tithe different?

Edited May 23, 2022 by Navidad

[CV75]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Sorry my friend. I don't agree with you that your exercise is "inherent" in the "Mormons aren't Christian thing. I think you may be stuck in the fifties and sixties/twentieth century-Walter Martin/Fundamentalist era of discussions. Methinks you will find the majority of twenty-first Evangelicalism very different than what you are describing. Even back in the late fifties, early Evangelicals were openly and negatively critiquing the manner and method of Martin and others like them. I know I have said this before, but you all will add much more credibility to your apologetics if you can begin to see the distinctions between Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Dallas Jenkins in a mainstream Evangelical. His dad, Jerry started out as a Fundamentalist dispensationalist and migrated to Evangelicalism (probably still dispensational - I don't really know) just like many of the rest of us did. I haven't seen anything new from him in terms of writing for several years.  Oh, and how is the LDS tithe different?

Hi Navidad. I think the bulk of your remarks are best directed to @smac97 so I'm bringing this to his attention. I take responsibility for the tithing remark, just a non-sequitur in an attempt at humor. 

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

Our friend @pogi is right. I won't equivocate to any group that I absolutely affirm that most LDS folks are Christians. The unique thing is that my criteria for such a claim might be a bit different from your own. I would however use language that my Evangelical friends could understand. I once was told by a nice lady that she was surprised that I could pray in Mormon! I prefer however to preach to Evangelicals in Evangelicalese! Best to all.

Would it be correct to say that the word "Christian" in Evangelicalese is used similar to how "Church of the First Born" is used in Mormonism, as @bluebell notes?  It is not a matter of membership of any earthly church, but personal loyalty or commitment to Jesus?  Or is it more a matter of belief - that you have to believe in certain attributes of Jesus to be considered a Christian?  

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

Sorry my friend. I don't agree with you that the normalization contained in your exercise is "inherent" in the "Mormons aren't Christian thing. I think you may be stuck in the fifties and sixties/twentieth century-Walter Martin/Fundamentalist era of discussions. Methinks you will find the majority of twenty-first Evangelicalism very different than what you are describing. 

You may be right that the "majority" of 21st century Evangelicals are not that way, but the fact that Dallas Jenkins has had to repeatedly clarify his comments to questioning Evangelicals is pretty telling that it really is not that uncommon among Evangelicals to question the Christianity of Latter-day Saints.   He said he felt compelled to give this clarification because after dozens of comments he continues to be hounded by people about his position.  There were even news articles made about his comments.  It doesn't seem to be so lost in the fifties and sixties, after all.  It still seems to be fairly controversial in his religious world.   

Even though he stated that he doesn't even claim that all Evangelicals are Christians, I don't think it would have been received with the same controversial and negative response had he done so. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by pogi

[JAHS]

The bigotry represented in the comments after that article is so thick you couldn't cut it wit a chainsaw. Apparently we are all going to Hell for sure.

[Navidad]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The bigotry represented in the comments after that article is so thick you couldn't cut it wit a chainsaw. Apparently we are all going to Hell for sure.

Could you please clarify which comments you are referring to and the nature of the bigotry as you see it? I am trying to understand what you are saying. Thanks.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The bigotry represented in the comments after that article is so thick you couldn't cut it wit a chainsaw. Apparently we are all going to Hell for sure.

Most of them don't know what they don't know, and they've never had to defend their interpretations of scriptures except in echo-chambers that support those interpretations.  Thank goodness, it doesn't matter what they think about us.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Could you please clarify which comments you are referring to and the nature of the bigotry as you see it? I am trying to understand what you are saying. Thanks.

The comments are full of people explaining why all "mormons" are going to hell because they believe in a different Jesus.  You can click on the article and scroll down to the bottom where the comments are and read them for yourself.

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Could you please clarify which comments you are referring to and the nature of the bigotry as you see it? I am trying to understand what you are saying. Thanks.

it's mostly a general sense I get from the attitude of those commenting. Like this one: 

"if these Mormons are not children of God, hell is where they will be going. Their founder is not the sinless Son of God, the Lord Jesus, but the sinner Mr J. Smith Esquire. That's not a good start to start with as it's leaving lots of doubt about the validity of their religion. The Mormon god is not the same GOD and the Mormon jesus is not the same JESUS either.  Therefore, if all this Mormon religion is a counterfeit, they have no chance as they are not true believers in the real JESUS."

[smac97]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow, now you all are on my turf. My comments are as follows:

1. You wont understand his (Jenkins') replies unless you understand his Evangelical perspective that only individuals are or can be Christians.

I value your perspective.

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Someone else who you all know and love (not) has been saying the same thing on this forum for years. You will often hear that Christ didn't die for groups, churches, institutions, or companies in an Evangelical sermon.

Hmm.  I wonder what they think of Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it."

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

For several years I was on a tour speaking to "Christian" companies. I strongly disagreed even while doing so that a company could be Christian.

In character, yes.  Collectively, yes.  

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

It would be completely contrary to Evangelical theology to posit that all members of any group are Christians. That has very little if anything to do with the group itself. Evangelicals are very strong in our belief that people come to Christ and His atonement one person at a time at a point it time. Being a Christian is not now, nor ever has been a group thing. It is, for an Evangelical a one person at a time thing. It is also not an ordinance thing. For Evangelicals, ordinances are not salvific. They are testimonial of an apriori salvation experience. Babies are often "dedicated" just as LDS babies are "blessed." I see very little difference in that ordinance as I have observed it in both groups.

Thank you for this.  it does help.  Latter-day Saints also beleive that devotion to Christ is a "one person at a time" thing.  The individual must make the choice.  I guess we diverge is that the "choice" is.  For us, it is obedience to God, which entails "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." (AofF 1:3.)  That would, for us, include baptism, becoming part of the "body of Christ" (Eph. 4:12).  As Christ described it, "my church."  (Matt. 16:18.)

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Sorry my friend. I don't agree with you that your exercise is "inherent" in the "Mormons aren't Christian thing.

I'm not sure what you mean.  The "exercise" I was referring to was the oft-repeated claims that the Latter-day Saints are categorically excluded from the definition of "Christian," which is built on a "No True Scotsman"-style equivocation exercise.   My thinking on this issue has been heavily influenced by Daniel Peterson's and Stephen Robinson's Offenders for a Word, which delves deeply into it:

• Introduction (Link)
• Is Mormonism Christian? An Investigation of Definitions, part 1 (Link)
• Is Mormonism Christian? An Investigation of Definitions, part 2 (Link)
• Is Mormonism Christian? An Investigation of Definitions, part 3 (Link)
• Mormonism as "Cult": The Limits of Lexical Polemics (Link)
• Bibliography (Link)

From part 3:

Quote

There is, after all, something rather peculiar about the assertion that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not Christian. This is not a self-evident truth, and would even seem to contradict obvious fact. (This is presumably why it is so frequently announced with an air of breathless discovery.) Mormons declare themselves Christian, and are astonished to be told they are not. They belong to a Church in which every prayer is uttered, every sermon is given, and every ordinance is performed literally in the name of Jesus Christ. Their hymns—the devotional heart of their Sunday worship—sing of Christ and his atonement. At Christmas and Easter, they join with hundreds of millions of Christians around the world in a celebration of his life. In baptism and in the weekly communion they know as “the sacrament,” they testify that they are willing to take upon themselves his name (D&C 20:37, 77). Their 􀃗rst Article of Faith announces their belief in “God the Eternal Father, and in His son, Jesus Christ.” The Book of Mormon closes with an exhortation to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him” (Moroni 10:32). One of the high points of the Doctrine and Covenants is a stirring testimony of Jesus (D&C 76:22 —24). Their story begins with the claim of a young boy to have seen the Father and the Son. That young boy later claimed to be a prophet, de􀃗ning “the spirit of prophecy” as “the testimony of Jesus.”615 His successors, likewise regarded as prophets, are assisted by a presiding quorum of “Twelve Apostles, or special witnesses of the name of Christ in all the world” (D&C 107:23).

Is it plausible to describe such people as “non-Christian”? It would hardly seem so, unless one is prepared to follow the idiosyncratic usage of the term that permits statements like, “I have been an active and committed Lutheran since my earliest youth; I became a Christian last July.” But language is a social construct, and meaning must be shared to be intelligible. To use terms in extraordinary ways, almost solipsistically, without alerting an audience, is confusing at best, as it is in the dialogue—if it can be called that!—between Humpty Dumpty and Alice. As illustrated by the case of certain Islamic zealots—who, when they accuse a woman of being a prostitute, really mean that she goes out in public without a veil—it can be distinctly dangerous. Yet most (if not all) of the arguments that claim to demonstrate that Mormonism is not Christian have, as we have seen, relied on private understandings of common words. Indeed, the denial that Mormons are Christians is, in and of itself, a massive instance of the elementary fallacy of equivocation, using—as it does—a very common word in a very peculiar sense.

(Emphasis added.)

The authors go on to state: "Needless to say, if the current flood of anti-Mormon radio and television programs, films, pamphlets, casettes, and books were merely an inexhaustible source of quaint specimens for a class in practical reasoning, there would be no cause for concern."

Offenders for a Word was published in 1992, which explains why the foregoing recitation ("anti-Mormon radio and television programs, films, pamphlets, casettes, and books") is outdated.  There is no reference to websites, YouTube videos. message boards, podcasts, etc.  But I think the underlying point - that there are folks going around using "the elementary fallacy of equivocation" to declare that Latter-day Saints are not "Christian" - continues today.

As it turns out, I'm not even the first one to invoke the No True Scotsman comparison.  Richard Packham, perhaps one of the most prominent and influential anti-mormons in the last thirty years (and who therefore can't be accused of carrying water for the Church) has made the same observation: Are Mormons Christian?

Quote

Well, the answer is:   yes and no.   It all depends.   The question usually does not appear as a question, but as an assertion:   "Mormons aren't Christian!"

The question "Are Mormons Christian?" is a meaningless query until you define precisely what you mean by "Christian."

My professional training is in linguistics and law.   Both are areas where words and their meanings are crucial.

The word "Christian" is a label, and thus it has all the advantages and disadvantages of any label.   The fundamental problem with labels - although they are very convenient - is that we humans tend to think (quite unjustifiably) that if we can find the proper label for something, the label brings an understanding of that thing's essence.   This is not true.   Labels have no such power and contain no such knowledge or information.   Inferences drawn from labels may be correct, but just as likely may not be correct.   That is, we "read into" the thing characteristics that belong to our definition of the label, but not necessarily to the thing we are labeling.
...
Ultimately, I think one should ask, before trying to convince the Mormons that they are not "Christian":   What am I trying to accomplish here?   If you want to convince the Mormon to rethink his beliefs and examine them, then telling him that he is not a Christian accomplishes nothing but cause resentment.   He already knows that he doesn't believe exactly the same as you or the traditional Christian churches.   That is the whole point of Mormonism.   In fact, the Mormons think that they (the Mormons) are the only "true Christians."

The whole problem is an example of what logicians sometimes call "The Fallacy of the True Scotsman":

MacDougal was arguing with MacDuff, claiming that "no true Scotsman puts sugar on his oatmeal!"   MacDuff reminded MacDougal that Angus MacGregor, the Lord Mayor of Edinburgh, head of the MacGregor clan, whose ancestors had fought at Bannockburn, does, indeed, put sugar on his oatmeal.   "Which shows, " said MacDougal triumphantly, "that MacGregor is no true Scotsman!" (See http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#scots )

A few years ago a man who claimed to be Christian told me in all seriousness that Pope John Paul was not a Christian, since Catholicism is not the true Christianity.   That strikes me as absurd.

(Emphasis added.)

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think you may be stuck in the fifties and sixties/twentieth century-Walter Martin/Fundamentalist era of discussions.

I dunno.  It seems like the "Mormons aren't Christian" think is alive and kicking.

January 2022 article on godlovesmormons.com: DEFENDING OUR CLAIM: MORMONS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS

Quote

Is the LDS Church’s claim that they’re Christian accurate? We say no – and in this video we respond to the first Gospel Topics Essay that claims Mormons ARE Christian, “Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians.”

In our previous podcast episode on this topic (https://youtu.be/vFXFB-eXJ4o) we explained WHY Christians don’t consider Latter-day Saints to be Christian. We evaluated Mormon vs Christian beliefs and doctrine, and demonstrated BIBLICALLY why we thought that Mormons don’t fit the label “Christian.” In THIS video, we walk through the Gospel Topics Essay and respond point-by-point to show that the LDS Church’s response to this claim does not accurately address the specific issues Christians bring to bear in conversations with Mormons.

Here are the three points this essay brings up:

• Latter-day Saints do not accept the creeds, confessions, and formulations of post–New Testament Christianity.

• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend through the historical line of traditional Christianity. That is, Latter-day Saints are not Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

• Latter-day Saints do not believe scripture consists of the Holy Bible alone but have an expanded canon of scripture that includes the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Undated Q&A on Catholic.com: Are Mormons Christian?

Quote

Question: I’ve heard Mormons say they worship the same Jesus we do and so they are Christians. After all, their church is “the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Answer: Just because someone says he’s a Christian doesn’t make him a Christian, because a Christian must be validly baptized and believe in the God of Christianity. The Catholic Church holds Mormon baptisms invalid because, even though the baptismal formula they use is correct, the meaning of the words “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” are so alien to Christian belief that they essentially belong to another religion.

2021 Podcast: Are Mormons Christian?

2021 Reddit thread:

Quote

Why do some people say Mormons aren’t Christians?

As an atheist I like to learn about ALL the religions but I’ve been seeing this come up a lot recently. I thought if a group believed in Jesus, then they are Christians? What am I missing here?

2018 Article: Mormonism Isn’t Christian / Definition of Christianity

Quote

It’s a question of intellectual honesty. Mormonism is not Christian, by any stretch of the imagination, and in no conceivable, rational sense of what the word means, historically and confessionally and biblically. It just isn’t. We can’t pretend that it is by playing games. I detest the intellectual dishonesty of granting that it is Christian simply because Mormonism pretends that it is, in order to gain cultural and theological legitimacy. This only breeds more confusion and harms more souls who are ignorant of the truth of the matter and don’t know any better. And that’s not good.

2012 Article: Mormons: Christians or not?

Quote

In a November Pew Research Center survey, about half of the white evangelical Christians polled said Mormonism is not a Christian religion.

Jan Shipps, a noted scholar of Mormon history and professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis, said that evangelicals have been taught to treat Mormons as "heretics."

The tension between evangelicals and Mormons owes partly to the fact that, for years, "they were tilling the same fields," as they sought converts in American suburbia, she said.

When evangelicals realized that Mormons were winning converts, the "development of the evangelical argument that Mormons aren't Christian was emphasized very strongly," said Shipps, who is a United Methodist.

But there are stark theological differences, too, between traditional Christians and members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And evangelicals are not the only Christians who believe these theological differences place Mormons outside the realm of Christianity.

While Mormons embrace the Bible, they also believe in an additional book: the Book of Mormon.

2012 Article: Are Mormons Christian? It's complicated

Quote

Ask Mormons if they are Christian, and their answer often starts with a sigh.

Look at our name, they'll say, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Read The Book of Mormon's subtitle, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Examine our Articles of Faith, "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved..."

"When we read in the press that some religious person who should know better refers to us as non-Christian, it is baffling to us," said Michael Otterson, the church's head of public affairs. "To suggest that we don't embrace Christ and his sacrifice for all of us is insulting."

Yet nearly a quarter of Americans remain unconvinced, according to a recent poll conducted by The Salt Lake Tribune. The Vatican and several Protestant churches do not accept Mormon baptisms as legitimate (neither do Mormons recognize theirs), and some conservative evangelicals call Mormonism a "cult." Mormons, meanwhile, believe they belong to the one true Christian church.

2011 Article: Poll: Three in four pastors say Mormons aren’t Christian

Quote

As a prominent evangelical pastor and supporter of Texas Gov. Rick Perry is taking heat for calling Mormonism a “cult,” a newly released poll says most Protestant pastors in U.S. agree that Mormons are not Christians.

Three out of four pastors surveyed by Southern Baptist-affiliated LifeWay Research said they disagreed with the statement that Mormons are Christians. The poll was conducted in October 2010 but was not released until Sunday (Oct. 9).
...
Reponses to the poll differed somewhat by denomination, with two-thirds (67 percent) of evangelicals strongly disagreeing that Mormons are Christians, compared to only 48 percent of mainline Protestants.

2011 Blog Entry: "Mormons Aren't Christians" Is Not an Epithet

2010 Article: Is Mormonism Christian? (by Albert Mohler, Jr., president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) :

Quote

Are Mormons "Christians" as defined by traditional Christian orthodoxy?

The answer to that question is easy and straightforward, and it is "no." Nevertheless, even as the question is clear, the answer requires some explanation.

The issue is clearly framed in this case. Christianity is rightly defined in terms of "traditional Christian orthodoxy." Thus, we have an objective standard by which to define what is and is not Christianity.

2008 Article: Yet Again, Are Mormons Christians? Shedding Light on a Hot Topic

2008 Article: Evangelical guide: Romney 'acknowledged' Mormons aren't Christian

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Methinks you will find the majority of twenty-first Evangelicalism very different than what you are describing.

The the above articles: "Three out of four pastors surveyed by Southern Baptist-affiliated LifeWay Research said they disagreed with the statement that Mormons are Christians."

And here: "Yet nearly a quarter of Americans remain unconvinced {that Latter-day Saints are Christian}, according to a recent poll conducted by The Salt Lake Tribune."

You may be right about "the majority," But 3 out of 4 pastors, and 1 out of 4 laymen, still seem like significant numbers.

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Oh, and how is the LDS tithe different?

Different from what?  Could you clarify?

Being labeled "Christian" is important in a sense, but far more important is being a disciple of Christ, through faith, through word and deed.  From Matthew 7:

Quote

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Also Luke 3:8: "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Chum]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The comments are full of people explaining why all "mormons" are going to hell because they believe in a different Jesus.  You can click on the article and scroll down to the bottom where the comments are and read them for yourself.

I am eagerly awaiting @Navidad's response on this. A bit because he once (reasonably) downplayed my assertions of Evangelical bigotry.

[Rivers]

Based on other interviews I’ve seen him do, he seems to believe that a Christian is any person with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. So he’s divorcing affiliation with a religious group from  being an individual disciple of Christ. That’s how I see it.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Would it be correct to say that the words "Christian" in Evangelicalese is used similar to how "Church of the First Born" is used in Mormonism, as @bluebell notes.  It is not a matter of membership, but loyalty or commitment to Jesus?  Or is it more a matter of belief - that you have to believe in certain attributes of Jesus to be considered a Christian?  

You may be right that the "majority" of 21st century Evangelicals are not that way, but the fact that Dallas Jenkins has had to repeatedly clarify his comments to questioning Evangelicals is pretty telling that this it really is not that uncommon among Evangelicals to question the Christianity of Latter-day Saints.   He said he felt compelled to give this clarification because after dozens of comments he continues to be hounded by people about his position.  There were even news articles made about his comments.  It doesn't seem to be so lost in the fifties and sixties, after all.  It still seems to be fairly controversial in his religious world.   

Even though he stated that he doesn't even claim that all Evangelicals are Christians, I don't think it would have been received with the same controversial and negative response had he done so. 

Pogi: With all due respect you are reading his comments and the events that have occurred through your own filters that have been finely honed since primary. I think you would be rather irritated with ole Navidad if I insisted I understand the responses, mindset, and actions of LDS Christians better than you do. It is a given among Evangelicals that not all Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, are Christians. It doesn't need to be said; it is a given and would be accepted as such.

Because the attitudes toward members of the LDS church are changing so rapidly, there is great need for understanding, communication, and clarification. Isn't that a core part of change management? Thank goodness for the change. My worry is that my LDS friends won't embrace the change, but will remain frozen (to use Kurt Lewin's term) in their past experiences, including those of their ancestors. I see it all the time with the creedal comments. The LDS have a strong identity that, like Mennonites includes a history of persecution that in some ways affirms their uniqueness and specialness. My concern is that Evangelicals will accept the change more quickly than will members of the LDS church. In a sociological sense, the LDS have more to lose in becoming part of the group than remaining the out-group. I think great LDS sociologists like Mauss and the Shepherd brothers would confirm this thesis.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

it's mostly a general sense I get from the attitude of those commenting. Like this one: 

"if these Mormons are not children of God, hell is where they will be going. Their founder is not the sinless Son of God, the Lord Jesus, but the sinner Mr J. Smith Esquire. That's not a good start to start with as it's leaving lots of doubt about the validity of their religion. The Mormon god is not the same GOD and the Mormon jesus is not the same JESUS either.  Therefore, if all this Mormon religion is a counterfeit, they have no chance as they are not true believers in the real JESUS."

I understand now. I am sure you understand the dangers and inaccuracies involved in normalizing - making the fringe elements of any group the norm, don't you? It is an old trope used to dismiss the other group as a whole. My progressive friends have done that with the religious right for decades. Fundamentalists (including Mormon Fundamentalists) do it with everyone who isn't them.