Encouraging Apostasy?

[jkwilliams]

A young married couple in my family told me of their tentative decision to leave the church (the reason isn’t important to this thread). They asked me to keep it confidential, and I did. The only advice I offered them was 1) make sure you are both agreed in whatever decision you make, and 2) don’t let anyone else (including me) influence or pressure you in any way; the decision is between you and God. 

I did not say anything pro or con about the church. It struck me that, in my former active LDS days, I would have volunteered my services to help them resolve their issues. I would have tried hard to get them to stay. But now I feel it’s none of my business what they do, and it would be wrong to try and influence them. 

I’m wondering if, from the believing perspective, it’s better to stay out of it and let people make their own decisions. I think it probably is.

Incidentally, I think watching them go through so much pain and turmoil (particularly from one side of the family) and feeling powerless to help partly explains why I’ve been a bit quick-tempered here lately. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

A young married couple in my family told me of their tentative decision to leave the church (the reason isn’t important to this thread). They asked me to keep it confidential, and I did. The only advice I offered them was 1) make sure you are both agreed in whatever decision you make, and 2) don’t let anyone else (including me) influence or pressure you in any way; the decision is between you and God. 

I did not say anything pro or con about the church. It struck me that, in my former active LDS days, I would have volunteered my services to help them resolve their issues. I would have tried hard to get them to stay. But now I feel it’s none of my business what they do, and it would be wrong to try and influence them. 

I’m wondering if, from the believing perspective, it’s better to stay out of it and let people make their own decisions. I think it probably is.

Incidentally, I think watching them go through so much pain and turmoil (particularly from one side of the family) and feeling powerless to help partly explains why I’ve been a bit quick-tempered here lately. 

I usually stay out of it unless they want to talk.  I'd probably ask why they were thinking about leaving if I didn't know already, but I'd likely say the same thing that you did.  Take it to God.  And I'd let them know that I was their friend/loved them either way.

This comes from my experiences on here, where I've learned that there's not much use in trying to talk someone into or out of something.  It seems like people usually have an idea of what they want to do or what they are leaning towards believing and they tend to go with whatever supports that (sometimes subconsciously) decision and argue against anything that doesn't.

Edited May 20, 2022 by bluebell

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I usually stay out if unless they want to talk.  I'd probably ask why they were thinking about leaving if I didn't know already, but I'd likely say the same thing that you did.  Take it to God.  And I'd let them know that I was their friend/loved them either way.

Exactly. I told them I would love and support them whatever they decided. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

A young married couple in my family told me of their tentative decision to leave the church (the reason isn’t important to this thread). They asked me to keep it confidential, and I did. The only advice I offered them was 1) make sure you are both agreed in whatever decision you make, and 2) don’t let anyone else (including me) influence or pressure you in any way; the decision is between you and God. 

I did not say anything pro or con about the church. It struck me that, in my former active LDS days, I would have volunteered my services to help them resolve their issues. I would have tried hard to get them to stay. But now I feel it’s none of my business what they do, and it would be wrong to try and influence them. 

I’m wondering if, from the believing perspective, it’s better to stay out of it and let people make their own decisions. I think it probably is.

Incidentally, I think watching them go through so much pain and turmoil (particularly from one side of the family) and feeling powerless to help partly explains why I’ve been a bit quick-tempered here lately. 

I agree that it is probably not a good idea to interpose your pro or anti notions into such matters, even when it involves family (or maybe especially when it involves family).  It is usually best to continue with a loving family relationship regardless of religious views/church views, and that would be a good idea for any religion (or even political view).  Parents and siblings need to have and continue their tight bonds, and this should extend in some way to aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, grandchildren, etc.

Unless we are talking about the adoption of rank immorality or toxic, abusive relationships and actions, maintaining a friendly demeanor is tremendously important.

It is completely natural for some people to walk away from the socio-political-religious views they once had, and they should be allowed to do so without fanfare or backbiting.  I had a recent exchange with someone online (not here) in which he insisted on recounting the dire consequences of not adhering to his version of the covenant path -- to those young folks who decided to abandon the faith.  I thought his comments harsh and premature, and said so.  I thought he left out key provisions of the Gospel, such as grace, repentance, and the Atonement.  I also felt that he had condemned those young people to abrupt and short-sighted judgment because I know of cases where such apostates come back.  He did not want even to consider that possibility.  He seemed to want a final apocalyptic Judgment here and now.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Robert F. Smith

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I agree that it is probably not a good idea to interpose your pro or anti notions into such matters, even when it involves family (or maybe especially when it involves family).  It is usually best to continue with a loving family relationship regardless of religious views/church views, and that would be a good idea for any religion (or even political view).  Parents and siblings need to have and continue their tight bonds, and this should extend in some way to aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, grandchildren, etc.

Unless we are talking about the adoption or rank immorality or toxic, abusive relationships and actions, maintaining a friendly demeanor is tremendously important.

It is completely natural for some people to walk away from the socio-political-religious views they once had, and they should be allowed to do so without fanfare or backbiting.  I had a recent exchange with someone online (not here) in which he insisted on recounting the dire consequences of not adhering to his version of the covenant path -- to those young folks who decided to abandon the faith.  I thought his comments harsh and premature, and said so.  I thought he left out key provisions of the Gospel, such as grace, repentance, and the Atonement.  I also felt that he had condemned those young people to abrupt and short-sighted judgment because I know of cases where such apostates come back.  He did not want even to consider that possibility.  He seemed to want a final apocalyptic Judgment here and now.

Sometimes people just want to be right and want people who disagree with them to know they were right. And to regret being wrong and not listening. 

[Pyreaux]

Are they going inactive like a normal person or are they trying to get a clerical excommunication? You could probably say something positive, some advice, like make certain you are making the right choices. Make sure you aren't throwing out good with the bad. Like if they are doing this because they don't like their Mormon parents (a very common and biological cause), do not let other people 'alone' reflect on the Church as a whole too much. You don't have to be a believer to tell someone whose might be abandoning their faith that they do so cautiously and especially prayerfully.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Pyreaux

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Are they going inactive like a normal person or are they trying to get a clerical excommunication? You could probably say something positive, some advice, like make certain you are making the right choices. Make sure you aren't throwing out good with the bad. Like if they are doing this because they don't like their Mormon parents (a very common and biological cause), don't let not to let people 'alone' reflect on the Church as a whole too much. You don't have to be a believer to tell someone whose might be abandoning their faith that they do so cautiously and especially prayerfully.

I did tell them to proceed thoughtfully and prayerfully (I still believe in prayer). Beyond that, I have nothing to say. 

[ttribe]

45 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Are they going inactive like a normal person or are they trying to get a clerical excommunication? You could probably say something positive, some advice, like make certain you are making the right choices. Make sure you aren't throwing out good with the bad. Like if they are doing this because they don't like their Mormon parents (a very common and biological cause), don't let not to let people 'alone' reflect on the Church as a whole too much. You don't have to be a believer to tell someone whose might be abandoning their faith that they do so cautiously and especially prayerfully.

It's called a 'resignation.' 

[Robert F. Smith]

15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It's called a 'resignation.' 

Yes, and people have a right to walk away.

[Calm]

If they have questions they wanted answering that I could answer, I will happily share the info I have including my testimony if appropriate, but imo the essential part of the relationship is supporting someone trying to be the best they can to the best of their understanding, not for me to tell them what that is (this is in part based on what I have seen and what the Lord told me many years ago about my daughter…her path to take not mine and she would get to where she needed to be eventually).

Edited May 20, 2022 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

If they have questions they wanted answering that I could answer, I will happily share the info I have including my testimony if appropriate, but imo the essential part of the relationship is supporting someone trying to be the best they can to the best of their understanding, not for me to tell them what that is (this is in part based on what I have seen and what the Lord told me many years ago about my daughter…her path to take not mine and she would get to where she needed to be eventually).

They didn’t ask me any questions or for advice but I think just wanted some support. 

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m wondering if, from the believing perspective, it’s better to stay out of it and let people make their own decisions. I think it probably is.

I believe you did the right thing.  If we as LDS believe in our doctrine, then the doctrine of agency must be protected.  They are adults and they have to make their decisions.  When my son decided not to go to attend church anymore, I was disappointed but he has to make his decisions.  He is my son but not my property.  I believe he will come back in time.  As the world continues to deteriorate with disasters of all sorts and things slowly come apart around us, it will be harder for him to stay away.  The Lord will bring some of his wayward people back.  They can come willingly or be compelled.  It will follow the book of mormon cycle.  We have gone through a long period of prosperity and people have become comfortable.  I believe the gears are starting to change and a lot of people are going to become humble.  Not excited about how things are going but it has to happen.

[let’s roll]

I’ve been in this situation a number of times.  I’ve never been prompted to ask any questions about feelings, relationships or experiences with the Church.  I almost always feel good about making an invitation to share feelings about experiences and relationships with Deity and encouraging the building and growing those relationships, even when folks, at the time we speak, express anger or disappointment toward Deity.

[manol]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

They didn’t ask me any questions or for advice but I think just wanted some support. 

Perhaps they wanted to see whether you would be a "safe space" should they need such in the future, and apparently the answer is "yes".  Imo that is excellent.

[jkwilliams]

17 minutes ago, manol said:

Perhaps they wanted to see whether you would be a "safe space" should they need such in the future, and apparently the answer is "yes".  Imo that is excellent.

They know where I stand. 

[Fether]

My approach has always been to ask “what do you want?” And then do what I can to help provide that. 

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, manol said:

Perhaps they wanted to see whether you would be a "safe space" should they need such in the future, and apparently the answer is "yes".  Imo that is excellent.

This is a good point.  BYW, welcome to the forum.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and people have a right to walk away.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.

[manol]

12 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This is a good point.  BYW, welcome to the forum.

Thank you. 

[longview]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.

Or according to Joseph Smith, never return to neutral ground.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, longview said:

Or according to Joseph Smith, never return to neutral ground.

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before

[Snodgrassian]

On 5/20/2022 at 1:27 PM, Pyreaux said:

Are they going inactive like a normal person or are they trying to get a clerical excommunication? You could probably say something positive, some advice, like make certain you are making the right choices. Make sure you aren't throwing out good with the bad. Like if they are doing this because they don't like their Mormon parents (a very common and biological cause), do not let other people 'alone' reflect on the Church as a whole too much. You don't have to be a believer to tell someone whose might be abandoning their faith that they do so cautiously and especially prayerfully.

I say let people leave how they want. If they want to make noise, so be it. If they want to go quietly into the night, also okay. This isn't about leaving a church (especially if your born into it). This is leaving your people/tribe. it is much harder to disassociate yourself from your culture. Removing oneself from perceived "toxic" parents is not unique to the Church (warranted or not). Be careful not to get stuck in the stereotypical reasons of why people leave.

If someone is leaving and is not seeking advice/input, don't offer it, thats my rule. 

[Navidad]

On 5/25/2022 at 11:53 AM, Snodgrassian said:

I say let people leave how they want. If they want to make noise, so be it. If they want to go quietly into the night, also okay. This isn't about leaving a church (especially if your born into it). This is leaving your people/tribe. it is much harder to disassociate yourself from your culture. Removing oneself from perceived "toxic" parents is not unique to the Church (warranted or not). Be careful not to get stuck in the stereotypical reasons of why people leave.

If someone is leaving and is not seeking advice/input, don't offer it, thats my rule. 

I think your reply is powerful. In less than two sentences you have identified the LDS Church as a member's church, people, tribe, and culture. That is an awful lot of engagement and entanglement in one basket. No wonder leaving is such a challenge for so many. Leaving all of that is a lot of loss. I can't imagine that much investment and identity in any one organization. They are four completely separate things for me. Thanks for making me think!

Edited May 26, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

On 5/26/2022 at 11:22 AM, Navidad said:

I think your reply is powerful. In less than two sentences you have identified the LDS Church as a member's church, people, tribe, and culture. That is an awful lot of engagement and entanglement in one basket. No wonder leaving is such a challenge for so many. Leaving all of that is a lot of loss. I can't imagine that much investment and identity in any one organization. They are four completely separate things for me. Thanks for making me think!

What are the definable differences then between one's 

People

Tribe

Culture?

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What are the definable differences then between one's 

People

Tribe

Culture?

Good morning. I can only answer your question for myself. What is definable and distinct for me may not be for you. I hope that is ok with you.

My church is wherever I am worshiping and fellowshipping at a given time and place. That is much more a function of location than creed (used in a non-creedal generic sense). They have included independent Fundamentalist, Baptist (of three different kinds - Mainline, Evangelical, and Fundamentalist), Mennonite, LDS, Orthodox, and non-denominational. I have preached or lectured in probably more than thirty church groups and their affiliated colleges/universities. I have never "left" any of them. We just moved away and found another church home in our new location. My church life has been a migration - very happy and comfortable. It has been an adventure - learning lots of new things about faith and perspectives on how to live it. I have authority in several of those churches via my licensures and ordinations. The absence or presence of administrative authority at any one time in my life is not at all important to me. Being able to minister in the particular church context is very important to us. The only local church that has limited our ministry potential is the LDS church. Hence - some of my discomfort in that environment.

My culture is Evangelical. It narrows and defines the particular form of Christianity to which I personally aspire, regardless of my then church affiliation. It sets the boundaries in many cases for my own personal lifestyle, activities, limitations, priorities, and values. It is the primary source of my identity regardless of the church I attend at any given point in time. I have never not been able to be specifically and openly Evangelical in any church setting in which I have participated, including in our ward.

My tribe is my wife's and my families. This affiliation is nowhere as strong for us as it is for many. We have never in our fifty-some years of married life lived close to our families of origin. We have one son who still lives with us at 43 years of age. We pour much of our resources, time, and love into him. My wife has many cousins. I have three. We now have great-great nieces and nephews. I would like to get to know them better. Our affiliation with our families is rather loose and ill-defined, but they are our closest tribal relationship. I struggle to interpret and understand the amorphous concept of Eternal Families in the LDS church. It is not something I aspire to for eternity. We have had a recent bout of divorces in our ward and family members who have left the LDS church. For the life of me, I can't figure out how all that impacts the idea of Eternal Families. Not a big deal. I stand on the sidelines of all of that and try and figure it out, mostly to no avail. Tribe is probably my least important affiliation.

My people are those within whom I have found a significant relationship due to common personalities, temperaments, interests, vocations, curiosities, intellectual pursuits, and openness to learning and provisional certitude. These are mostly historians, those who study faith in its various manifestations, those who dig deep into things (like organizations) to understand them (often to the frustration of others! 😃), those with intense intellectual curiosities that cannot be easily quenched, but mostly those who are searchers, seekers, and learners - those not content with where they are spiritually, intellectually, or especially with easy-answers-to-challenging-questions. My people are those who see themselves as one of many. My people are those who are not comfortable with single stories, solutions, or truths. My people are those who struggle with reductionism to deal with issues that are multi-faceted like racism, school shootings, ranking, and the tendency of humans to de-humanize. Many of these people are very different from me in the first three categories, but we are bound together first and foremost by the fourth (people).

I hope this helps answer your question. It is my answer; I don't expect it is how you would answer the same question. My guess is that you and I have very different ideas of church, culture, tribe, and people. That is ok with me! I would love for you to fit into a fifth category - that of friend!



 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Navidad