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LDS Ordinances Outside of Chapel or Temple


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5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Here is a great picture of a Catholic mass during WWII with a jeep hood serving as the altar:

thumbRNSWWIIEXHIBITS5.jpg

While mass should be celebrated in a church with a consecrated altar, contingencies do arise that allow for situations such as this.

Is there something comparable with LDS ordinances? I'm guessing sacrament and baptism can occur outside of the chapel. Could temple ceremonies if there is an emergency? What about in the early days when the only temples were in Utah -- what did LDS in other countries do? And for that matter, what do LDS do in places today where they cannot access a temple?

 

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Because temple work can be done after someone dies and is not time sensitive, I'm not sure what an emergency that involved temple ordinances would even look like.

But baptisms for the dead used to be done outside of the temple, before one was completed.  And temple ordinances were done in the endowment house in SLC before the SLC temple was finished.  It was a dedicated space though so served as a temple during that time.  I'm not sure if that occurred anywhere else or at any other time.

Ensign Peak, a knob-shaped prominence north of Capitol Hill in Salt Lake City, was used briefly for bestowing the endowment on departing missionaries very soon after the Pioneers settled the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, before either the temple or the Endowment House could be constructed. 

 

I had a memorable experience with my son last year after he received his mission call to Córdoba, Argentina. We took him to the Draper Utah Temple for him to receive his endowment. Then, about a week later, he and I hiked up to Ensign Peak (there is a nice nature trail, information markers and, at the top, a monument and an overlook on the valley below). 

I told him it was significant because inside of a week, he had received his endowment at the Draper Temple in the mountains on the extreme southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, and we had visited Ensign Peak in the mountains on the extreme northern end of the valley, where the early missionaries in the Utah period of Church history had received THEIR endowments. 
 

 

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58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Ensign Peak, a knob-shaped prominence north of Capitol Hill in Salt Lake City, was used briefly for bestowing the endowment on departing missionaries very soon after the Pioneers settled the Salt Lake Valley in 1847, before either the temple or the Endowment House could be constructed. 

 

I had a memorable experience with my son last year after he received his mission call to Córdoba, Argentina. We took him to the Draper Utah Temple for him to receive his endowment. Then, about a week later, he and I hiked up to Ensign Peak (there is a nice nature trail, information markers and, at the top, a monument and an overlook on the valley below). 

I told him it was significant because inside of a week, he had received his endowment at the Draper Temple in the mountains on the extreme southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, and we had visited Ensign Peak in the mountains on the extreme northern end of the valley, where the early missionaries in the Utah period of Church history had received THEIR endowments. 
 

 

I've hiked that peak as well.  It's beautiful up there.

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3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I like how this link pretty much answers my question about historical sealings outside of the temple. I'm glad to know my question wasn't dumb ;) 

It was a good question and the catalyst for some good responses and information. Thank you for posing it. 

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5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Baptism and sacrament can be performed anywhere if there is a need and it's authorized by those presiding.
Baptisms for the dead were performed in the Mississippi until a font was made available.
Endowments were performed on mountain tops, in endowment houses, in offices, etc before temples were finished.
Prayer Circles and Mother's Blessings (anointings) were performed in chapels for decades.
Marriage sealings were frequently performed outside of temples when none were available.

The work continues and the Lord accepts ordinances outside of chapels and temples if there is not a reasonable alternative.  Better than no ordinance work at all.

According to Anglican Bishop Tom Wright, the Garden of Eden itself was a temple -- and we all know what takes place there.

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11 hours ago, smac97 said:

Same here.  During the COVID lockdown we were allowed - for the first time in my life - to bless the Sacrament at home.  The instructions were fairly specific.

There are further regular "contingencies" that we deal with as well.  Members of a ward who are homebound can ask for and receive the Sacrament at their home.  It is usually performed by the young men, though elders can do it as well.  

Latter-day Saints in the Armed Forces also can receive permission to administer the Sacrament.  When I was in the Utah National Guard, those who wanted to could use part of their lunch break on Sunday to go to a room in the armory for a brief service, including the Sacrament.

I think the Church wants to keep these contingencies as such, as exceptions to the rule.  It appears that the Sacrament is generally supposed to be administered in a consecrated building.  From D&C 59:

There is, I think, an ongoing need for us to meet together.  It's part and parcel of maintaining cohesion as a community of faith.

Yes.  Baptisms in the ocean are the norm in Polynesia.  My sister and her family currently live in Vanuatu, and a few months ago our extended family logged on to Zoom to watch her daughter's baptismal service.  The meeting was in the fale-style chapel, but for the baptism they walked across the street and her father baptized her in the ocean.  It was a lovely thing to see.  My oldest brother was likewise baptized in the ocean when we were living in Hawaii. 

The temple ceremonies were performed for many years (1855-1889) in the "Endowment House" in Salt Lake City prior to the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple.  There was also an "Endowment House" in Spring City, Utah, but I'm not sure if it was ever consecrated and used for temple ordinances.

A mountain peak north of Salt Lake City, Ensign Peak, was consecrated as a temple for a single day so that a missionary, Addison Pratt, could receive his endowment there.

They save up and travel to one.  This is becoming less and less an issue these days.  Some time ago I heard a statistic along the lines of a very high percentage of the members of the Church live within 100 miles of a temple.  I suspect this issue - proximity - is one of the motivating factors behind the substantial numbers of smaller temples being built around the world.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks for providing the link to the article about Ensign Peak. It was my privilege, through my journalistic writing, to provide some of the contemporary sourcing for some of the later (1990s) history of Ensign Peak (see the footnotes to the article). 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

According to Anglican Bishop Tom Wright, the Garden of Eden itself was a temple -- and we all know what takes place there.

What we call Genesis/Moses is actually a record of Moses receiving his endowment on the Mount.  Not him recording oral history/myth as many assume.

Likewise the Abraham creation account.

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10 hours ago, rongo said:

Prayer circles were also allowed to be done in stake centers until the early 1980s (stake presidency and high council). This was discontinued and limited only to temples. 

Which has doctrinal repercussions in my opinion.  It completely defeats one purpose of the endowment.  🤷

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16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which has doctrinal repercussions in my opinion.  It completely defeats one purpose of the endowment.  🤷

There are a lot of doctrinal repercussions with many of these "a change in presentation, not a change in doctrine" changes. There is a very big one in particular with respect to prayer circles with the most recent changes (he that hath ears to hear, let him hear). I expect there to be more content removed from the endowment that change what is taught (doctrine) and the story. :( 

My endowment cannot be taken away, though, and I can transmit what I know and believe (including insights from previous iterations) to my children and grandchildren --- keep blowing on the coals within my sphere of influence. 

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On 5/20/2022 at 9:31 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Here is a great picture of a Catholic mass during WWII with a jeep hood serving as the altar:

thumbRNSWWIIEXHIBITS5.jpg

While mass should be celebrated in a church with a consecrated altar, contingencies do arise that allow for situations such as this.

Is there something comparable with LDS ordinances? I'm guessing sacrament and baptism can occur outside of the chapel. Could temple ceremonies if there is an emergency? What about in the early days when the only temples were in Utah -- what did LDS in other countries do? And for that matter, what do LDS do in places today where they cannot access a temple?

This may have said already been said but it is believed that Peter James and John were to be the first presidency and it is said that they were endowed by Jesus on the feast of tabernacles and that they were told to "tell the vision to no man" until after his death.  The Old Testament patriarchs including Moses were endowed on mountain tops as well.  

And of course the endowment liturgy goes back to the Jewish tabernacle and temple. 

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 5/20/2022 at 7:54 PM, JLHPROF said:

What we call Genesis/Moses is actually a record of Moses receiving his endowment on the Mount.  Not him recording oral history/myth as many assume.

Likewise the Abraham creation account.

Yes, I  believe that is clear to most  scholars.

The creation account is a temple play, an allegorical presentation.

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14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, I  believe that is clear to most  scholars.

The creation account is a temple play, an allegorical presentation.

While I agree with you, many members would label you a heretic for saying such a thing.

 A few years ago, I was in a conversation w a life-long member whose head exploded at me suggesting that the earth wasn’t created in 6 days (I.e. 6, 24 hr time periods).  He did relent a little saying that maybe it was accomplished in 6000 years.  I was completely shocked.  Oh well.
 

 

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On 5/20/2022 at 9:31 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Here is a great picture of a Catholic mass during WWII with a jeep hood serving as the altar:

thumbRNSWWIIEXHIBITS5.jpg

While mass should be celebrated in a church with a consecrated altar, contingencies do arise that allow for situations such as this.

Is there something comparable with LDS ordinances? I'm guessing sacrament and baptism can occur outside of the chapel. Could temple ceremonies if there is an emergency? What about in the early days when the only temples were in Utah -- what did LDS in other countries do? And for that matter, what do LDS do in places today where they cannot access a temple?

This is a beautiful and touching photo.

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On 5/20/2022 at 1:18 PM, jkwilliams said:

And I’ve taken the sacrament high in the Sierra Nevada on a backpacking trip. 

On 5/20/2022 at 1:22 PM, jkwilliams said:

When I was a teenager I knew some boys who blessed the sacrament while high. True story. 

You knew some boys huh?  Hmmm...interesting. 

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On 5/20/2022 at 6:15 PM, Scott Lloyd said:
On 5/20/2022 at 2:39 PM, MiserereNobis said:

I like how this link pretty much answers my question about historical sealings outside of the temple. I'm glad to know my question wasn't dumb ;) 

It was a good question and the catalyst for some good responses and information. Thank you for posing it. 

There are no dumb questions, only dumb people who don't ask the dumb questions and that is why they are dumb.🙂

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15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, I  believe that is clear to most  scholars.

The creation account is a temple play, an allegorical presentation.

 

54 minutes ago, Durangout said:

While I agree with you, many members would label you a heretic for saying such a thing.

 A few years ago, I was in a conversation w a life-long member whose head exploded at me suggesting that the earth wasn’t created in 6 days (I.e. 6, 24 hr time periods).  He did relent a little saying that maybe it was accomplished in 6000 years.  I was completely shocked.  Oh well.
 

 

It can be both an allegorical temple play AND a representation of the historical events.
There's definitely a bit of both in the creation accounts.  The allegory is probably why they differ a bit on some details.

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5 hours ago, Durangout said:

While I agree with you, many members would label you a heretic for saying such a thing.

Oh, I know!

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On 5/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, smac97 said:

Same here.  During the COVID lockdown we were allowed - for the first time in my life - to bless the Sacrament at home.  The instructions were fairly specific.

There are further regular "contingencies" that we deal with as well.  Members of a ward who are homebound can ask for and receive the Sacrament at their home.  It is usually performed by the young men, though elders can do it as well.  

Latter-day Saints in the Armed Forces also can receive permission to administer the Sacrament.  When I was in the Utah National Guard, those who wanted to could use part of their lunch break on Sunday to go to a room in the armory for a brief service, including the Sacrament.

I think the Church wants to keep these contingencies as such, as exceptions to the rule.  It appears that the Sacrament is generally supposed to be administered in a consecrated building.  From D&C 59:

There is, I think, an ongoing need for us to meet together.  It's part and parcel of maintaining cohesion as a community of faith.

Yes.  Baptisms in the ocean are the norm in Polynesia.  My sister and her family currently live in Vanuatu, and a few months ago our extended family logged on to Zoom to watch her daughter's baptismal service.  The meeting was in the fale-style chapel, but for the baptism they walked across the street and her father baptized her in the ocean.  It was a lovely thing to see.  My oldest brother was likewise baptized in the ocean when we were living in Hawaii. 

It would be interesting to see if they know the same people my husband does.  My in-laws served their mission there 20 years ago.  Soon after my mother-in-law died and my father-in-law made several trips back taking one of his children each time.  My husband loved the people be met and was even able to go to New Zealand with my father-in-law when one of the families were sealed. My husband still occasionally emails people from there though at least one of them has to do it from work as I think he still does not have electricity or running water at home.

On 5/20/2022 at 9:16 AM, smac97 said:

The temple ceremonies were performed for many years (1855-1889) in the "Endowment House" in Salt Lake City prior to the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple.  There was also an "Endowment House" in Spring City, Utah, but I'm not sure if it was ever consecrated and used for temple ordinances.

A mountain peak north of Salt Lake City, Ensign Peak, was consecrated as a temple for a single day so that a missionary, Addison Pratt, could receive his endowment there.

They save up and travel to one.  This is becoming less and less an issue these days.  Some time ago I heard a statistic along the lines of a very high percentage of the members of the Church live within 100 miles of a temple.  I suspect this issue - proximity - is one of the motivating factors behind the substantial numbers of smaller temples being built around the world.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

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