Jump to content

Kinderhook Plates Discovery damages BOA Missing Scroll and Catalyst Theories


Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, why me said:

What I am saying is that if he was a fraudster by claiming he translated the book of mormon from gold plates but in reality he didn't he would see this kinderhook fraud a mile away. That he attempted to do it showed that most likely he had that gold plate experience.

A very good point. While as pointed out by others that it's not entirely implausible that a person deeply immersed in cons wouldn't potentially show interest (if nothing else than to scope out competition), to me it's not a compelling argument. The authentic Joseph Smith with authentic golden plates makes more probable sense to me. But, I'm also biased by choosing an interpretation that is basically consistent with other pesonal evidences.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

I think looking at the physical artifacts involved in the translation (gold plates, interpreters, seer stones, etc.) as mere "props" to induce a "psychological placebo" effect is somewhat off the mark. The Book of Mormon provides what is, imo, a better explanation that is more in line with fundamental gospel principles. 

I think the Book of Mormon provides the traditional teachings in regards to these artifacts, but if we are talking about fundamental "gospel principles" like "faith" and "love", etc., I don't think that "physical artifacts" makes the list of fundamental gospel principles required for revelation from God.    

Here is the fundamental gospel principle which I believe explains these things:

Quote

 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

 I think it is sometimes easier to believe in the power of something outside of ourselves then it is to believe in our own capacity and divine power and potential to directly connect with the divine.  As mentioned in another thread, I also think there is some hesitancy/fear to directly connect with God and we therefore rely on intermediaries.  But I think that underlying and self-limiting beliefs in our own abilities and worthiness are the only barriers to direct experience with God without the need for buffering intermediaries.  I think the intermediaries and artifacts such as seer stones, olive oil, temples, etc. are necessary for spiritual development until we learn to believe in our own capacity, worthiness, and become unafraid to approach God without any buffer betwixt us in understand that we ourselves are temples, and can ourselves be the earthly abode of God.  I think that is the ultimate goal and the result of living gospel principles - it is a process that strips our minds and beliefs of these limiting factors and beliefs.  When our beliefs are pure and without corruption, then "all things are possible" with nothing more than pure "belief".  No need for artifacts when we can generate pure belief free of fear and doubt without them.     

 

Edited by pogi
Link to comment
12 hours ago, why me said:

What I am saying is that if he was a fraudster by claiming he translated the book of mormon from gold plates but in reality he didn't he would see this kinderhook fraud a mile away. That he attempted to do it showed that most likely he had that gold plate experience.

I have seen nothing from you over the years to indicate you have significant experience or insight with the psychology of fraudsters.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

 Faith, alone, apparently wasn't enough to activate the false seer stone that Martin swapped out for Joseph's genuine seer stone, even though Joseph believed, on a psychological level, that it would work. In many cases faith must be coupled with divinely prepared means in order to activate certain types of divine power. 

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that Joseph knew that the stone had been swapped.  It was a pretty unique stone.   It would have been nearly impossible to duplicate convincingly.  I don't know if there is any evidence that Joseph believed on a psychological level that the bogus stone was the genuine one.  

Link to comment
28 minutes ago, pogi said:
17 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

I think looking at the physical artifacts involved in the translation (gold plates, interpreters, seer stones, etc.) as mere "props" to induce a "psychological placebo" effect is somewhat off the mark. The Book of Mormon provides what is, imo, a better explanation that is more in line with fundamental gospel principles. 

I think the Book of Mormon provides the traditional teachings in regards to these artifacts, but if we are talking about fundamental "gospel principles" like "faith" and "love", etc., I don't think that "physical artifacts" makes the list of fundamental gospel principles required for revelation from God.    

Well, there are fundamental principles and then there are FUNDAMENTAL principles. My point was more in relation to the first (less absolute) category. The gospel theme or pattern involving the way that divine power correlates to physical objects and actions is pretty fundamental (i.e., pervasive and important), even if it isn't as fundmamental as, say, faith or love. 

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that Joseph knew that the stone had been swapped.  It was a pretty unique stone.   It would have been nearly impossible to duplicate convincingly.  I don't know if there is any evidence that Joseph believed on a psychological level that the bogus stone was the genuine one. 

I don't gamble, but if pressed I would bet in the opposite direction. Martin was there. He clearly believed Joseph didn't notice the swap and was confused as to why the translation wasn't working. And that perplexity only makes sense if Joseph indeed tried to translate as usual and couldn't. Which strongly suggests his cognitive state would have been in a believing mode. 

I think that the historical evidence on this point, while certainly not conclusive, definitely favors the idea that there was more to the stone than it merely being a "prop" for Joseph's faith. If someone is so sure that the stone itself didn't matter in the way I am suggesting (as an object that was prepared/consecrated/authorized by the Lord for a specific divine purpose), and that any old stone would have done the trick, and that Joseph was either pretending to be surprised or that the account is not reliable to begin with, that is certainly an option. I think it is the less reasonable option, and an unnecessary one considering that there is a perfectly good gospel explanation for why that specific stone may have had a unique ability to facilitate divine power, but your interpretation is still on the table. I'll just bet against it for now.

Really this issue probably depends on a complex network of assumptions about how/why God works in certain ways, and it is probably hard to untangle and trace down all the different types of evidence over the years that inform the differing assumptions that we bring to the table on this issue. Such disagreements make sense. It's pretty non-essential anyway. 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Ryan Dahle said:

I never said that faith/hope wasn't important to the activation of divine power. In fact I thought I made it clear that faith was necessary and that the physical objects help facilitate that process. My point was that faith was just one component. Your prior comment seemed to be missing or not emphasizing the other ingredient in the equation. Faith, alone, apparently wasn't enough to activate the false seer stone that Martin swapped out for Joseph's genuine seer stone, even though Joseph believed, on a psychological level, that it would work. In many cases faith must be coupled with divinely prepared means in order to activate certain types of divine power. 

The point about the Liahona was that it was clearly more than just a prop. Yes, it helped facilitate faith and was activated and operated by faith. But it had additional functionality and purpose beyond that. It wasn't just a "gizmo effect psychologically to have hope." It served a very practical purpose in their journey. It responded to their faith in a particular miraculous way. And embedded in its miraculous functionality was typological instruction with pedagogical value (which is also distinct from and in addition to its ability to generate or facilitate faith). So it wasn't just a prop that was necessary because people couldn't have enough faith or hope without it (even though it helped in that area as well).

It seems like I'm getting you. I'm not sure you're getting me, though. Which is okay. I'll probably sign off on this one. 

No don't do that- we agree on far more than what it appears to be.

Bottom line is that I am creating a paradigm to bring agnostics into the church, before they even know what the "Spirit" is- the first step to conversion was to know that experience comes before the explanation of "what happened"

I knew well "the Spirit" and called it the placebo effect even as an atheist- then learned what the Spirit really is when God saw fit to give me a whopper of a spiritual experience to know without a doubt that the "church is true"

Now I am trying to create an avenue in words which might draw someone in who is an agnostic who THEN has The Experience we have all had.   THEN we make up the words and explanations that fit our personal needs.

But I have a plumbing leak that needs attention- time to do a remodel-   :(- so I will be in and out to give you a better answer later- maybe tomorrow etc.

Don't give up on me- we are almost there!!    ;)

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

Well, there are fundamental principles and then there are FUNDAMENTAL principles. My point was more in relation to the first (less absolute) category. The gospel theme or pattern involving the way that divine power correlates to physical objects and actions is pretty fundamental (i.e., pervasive and important), even if it isn't as fundmamental as, say, faith or love. 

I agree that the correlation is pervasive and integral to our faith.  As I stated, I think these things serve as "necessary" intermediates due to core limiting beliefs/fears that we all have and must overcome.  There is an undeniable correlation, but I suspect that these objects are not causative.  I think the belief is causative and these rocks were necessary to generate belief of divine power - just like sugar pills are not causative of medical healing, but they are necessary to generate healing beliefs. 

1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

I don't gamble, but if pressed I would bet in the opposite direction. Martin was there. He clearly believed Joseph didn't notice the swap and was confused as to why the translation wasn't working. And that perplexity only makes sense if Joseph indeed tried to translate as usual and couldn't. Which strongly suggests his cognitive state would have been in a believing mode. 

I think that the historical evidence on this point, while certainly not conclusive, definitely favors the idea that there was more to the stone than it merely being a "prop" for Joseph's faith. If someone is so sure that the stone itself didn't matter in the way I am suggesting (as an object that was prepared/consecrated/authorized by the Lord for a specific divine purpose), and that any old stone would have done the trick, and that Joseph was either pretending to be surprised or that the account is not reliable to begin with, that is certainly an option. I think it is the less reasonable option, and an unnecessary one considering that there is a perfectly good gospel explanation for why that specific stone may have had a unique ability to facilitate divine power, but your interpretation is still on the table. I'll just bet against it for now.

Really this issue probably depends on a complex network of assumptions about how/why God works in certain ways, and it is probably hard to untangle and trace down all the different types of evidence over the years that inform the differing assumptions that we bring to the table on this issue. Such disagreements make sense. It's pretty non-essential anyway. 

The swap would be the easy part to hide, the rock on the other hand would not be so easy to replicate convincingly.  I simply cannot buy that Martin could have fabricated a rock equal in appearance, color, texture, and heft to the genuine stone.  If this story is genuine, it is possible that Joseph was playing along, knowing that it was fake, to test Martin in some way.  I have seen pictures, I just can't imagine a convincing replicate being made, especially with the technology of the day.  It is implausible, and therefore the other explanation is more convincing to me. 

In regards to the stone being prepared by the Lord for a specific divine purpose, I don't disagree with those points.  That is how placebos work too.  It would be impossible to generate the divine power of healing belief without authoritative preparation of sugar pills set apart for these things.  

I completely agree that these things are pretty non-essential - It doesn't really pragmatically matter if you are right or I am right, all that matters is that it generates the power of divine belief  ;)  That is the core, fundamental, and causative door to divine power.  If your belief works for you - that is all that matters.  If mine works for me - that is all that matters. 

Edited by pogi
Link to comment
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ttribe said:

I have seen nothing from you over the years to indicate you have significant experience or insight with the psychology of fraudsters.

Well, I do have an imagination that can put me into the body of a fraudster and know how I would react to such a situation. My first reaction would be to do a laugh and then set the fraudster on their way if I was also a fraudster with the book of mormon. I wouldn't be taken for a Mook. When I look at JS's life after he came forth with the book of mormon is one of misery. And for a fraudster to experience so much misery for a fraud found in a book is quite amazing. Why continue? Prison, marriage problems, money problems, tar and feathered, hated by many, running around trying to hide plates that do not exist etc. And eventually ending in death by an angry mob. Sticking with it to the end. Qutie something.

Edited by why me
Link to comment
2 hours ago, pogi said:

 I think the intermediaries and artifacts such as seer stones, olive oil, temples, etc. are necessary for spiritual development until we learn to believe in our own capacity, worthiness, and become unafraid to approach God without any buffer betwixt us in understand that we ourselves are temples, and can ourselves be the earthly abode of God.  I think that is the ultimate goal and the result of living gospel principles - it is a process that strips our minds and beliefs of these limiting factors and beliefs.  When our beliefs are pure and without corruption, then "all things are possible" with nothing more than pure "belief".  No need for artifacts when we can generate pure belief free of fear and doubt without them.    

Very interesting.

I think what we are called to is arguably pretty ambitious (3 Nephi 27:27), and that it's an inner journey moreso than a practice of outward forms (Luke 17:21; 1 Corinthians 3:16).  Regarding intermediaries and artifacts and props and teaching devices, they are of course quite useful, but the training wheels are not the bike.

Link to comment
26 minutes ago, manol said:

Very interesting.

I think what we are called to is arguably pretty ambitious (3 Nephi 27:27), and that it's an inner journey moreso than a practice of outward forms (Luke 17:21; 1 Corinthians 3:16).  Regarding intermediaries and artifacts and props and teaching devices, they are of course quite useful, but the training wheels are not the bike.

Well said!

Link to comment
43 minutes ago, why me said:

Well, I do have an imagination that can put me into the body of a fraudster and know how I would react to such a situation. My first reaction would be to do a laugh and then set the fraudster on their way if I was also a fraudster with the book of mormon. I wouldn't be taken for a Mook. When I look at JS's life after he came forth with the book of mormon is one of misery. And for a fraudster to experience so much misery for a fraud found in a book is quite amazing. Why continue? Prison, marriage problems, money problems, tar and feathered, hated by many, running around trying to hide plates that do not exist etc. And eventually ending in death by an angry mob. Sticking with it to the end. Qutie something.

You're not helping your argument. There are actual books which will teach you more about behavioral patterns amongst fraudsters, as well as religious leaders. There is, in fact, a fair amount of overlap on the Venn diagram of behaviors between the two groups.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But I have a plumbing leak that needs attention

You are getting to that age, aren't ya?

I would recommend some Depends 😁 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, pogi said:

You are getting to that age, aren't ya?

I would recommend some Depends 😁 

Already got some, thanks.  😳

You are just  BAD man!!  ;)

Incidentally please just answer my replies for me if I am away.  You know what I would say before I do anyway! 🙃

Link to comment
2 hours ago, pogi said:

Well said!

Me likey

Link to comment
8 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that the correlation is pervasive and integral to our faith.  As I stated, I think these things serve as "necessary" intermediates due to core limiting beliefs/fears that we all have and must overcome.  There is an undeniable correlation, but I suspect that these objects are not causative.  I think the belief is causative and these rocks were necessary to generate belief of divine power - just like sugar pills are not causative of medical healing, but they are necessary to generate healing beliefs. 

The swap would be the easy part to hide, the rock on the other hand would not be so easy to replicate convincingly.  I simply cannot buy that Martin could have fabricated a rock equal in appearance, color, texture, and heft to the genuine stone.  If this story is genuine, it is possible that Joseph was playing along, knowing that it was fake, to test Martin in some way.  I have seen pictures, I just can't imagine a convincing replicate being made, especially with the technology of the day.  It is implausible, and therefore the other explanation is more convincing to me. 

In regards to the stone being prepared by the Lord for a specific divine purpose, I don't disagree with those points.  That is how placebos work too.  It would be impossible to generate the divine power of healing belief without authoritative preparation of sugar pills set apart for these things.  

I completely agree that these things are pretty non-essential - It doesn't really pragmatically matter if you are right or I am right, all that matters is that it generates the power of divine belief  ;)  That is the core, fundamental, and causative door to divine power.  If your belief works for you - that is all that matters.  If mine works for me - that is all that matters. 

Do we know that Martin was referring to the brown stone which we've seen pictures of? I know there's evidence that Joseph had multiple stones throughout his life and, if I recall correctly, even during the BoM translation. 

Then again, I don't even remember the full wording of Harris's account so my memory only goes so far.

Link to comment
1 minute ago, OGHoosier said:

Do we know that Martin was referring to the brown stone which we've seen pictures of? I know there's evidence that Joseph had multiple stones throughout his life and, if I recall correctly, even during the BoM translation. 

Then again, I don't even remember the full wording of Harris's account so my memory only goes so far.

You are right, it could have been a different stone, but if I remember correctly they are all described as fairly peculiar.  Joseph would have been very familiar with their size, shape, color, texture, and heft.  I just can’t imagine convincingly duplicating a peculiar rock and making it look natural.

Link to comment
13 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

So how important is the Book of Abraham? You all have an open canon, and a declaration about the Book of Mormon (the "word of God"), and lower, the Bible ("as far as it is translated correctly"). Are the Doctrines & Covenants and Book of Abraham lower still?

You could work with your open canon and end the consideration of all this theory of translation stuff. You could put the Book of Abraham in an appendix or remove it and treat it as valued devotional literature, but not scripture.

Probably ignorant on my part, but I'm just thinking out loud.

 

 

I'm just a carpenter want to be a member but for me the Bible is the most important, then the Book of Mormon and then the Doctrine and Covenants which is full of Christ's words to us members of the Church,  his own words to us personally. The Pearl of Great Price I think is wonderful scripture and I also believe the Kng Follett Discourse is scripture for the most part.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, ttribe said:

You're not helping your argument. There are actual books which will teach you more about behavioral patterns amongst fraudsters, as well as religious leaders. There is, in fact, a fair amount of overlap on the Venn diagram of behaviors between the two groups.

Maybe so. But I just know that if I engaged in fraud about translating good plates when I actually wrote the book myself, I don't think that I would entertain anyone who gave me an example of my own fraud. What would be the point? I would do everything to protect my fraud from mishap. I would just say: please take your plates to New York and find an expert to help you out because I am rather busy running a church and protecting it from enemies with a wink.

Edited by why me
Link to comment
10 hours ago, pogi said:

You are right, it could have been a different stone, but if I remember correctly they are all described as fairly peculiar.  Joseph would have been very familiar with their size, shape, color, texture, and heft.  I just can’t imagine convincingly duplicating a peculiar rock and making it look natural.

I've always understood the story that Martin swapped the stones while it was in the hat.  And the hat is supposed to be dark so when Joseph picked up the hat again, he couldn't see the peculiar parts of the stone.  He just knew that a stone was in the hat and assumed it was the original one.

Link to comment
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, webbles said:
12 hours ago, pogi said:

You are right, it could have been a different stone, but if I remember correctly they are all described as fairly peculiar.  Joseph would have been very familiar with their size, shape, color, texture, and heft.  I just can’t imagine convincingly duplicating a peculiar rock and making it look natural.

I've always understood the story that Martin swapped the stones while it was in the hat.  And the hat is supposed to be dark so when Joseph picked up the hat again, he couldn't see the peculiar parts of the stone.  He just knew that a stone was in the hat and assumed it was the original one.

Exactly. If it was in the hat which is darker and not so openly visible, and if Joseph typically enclosed the hat when he looked into the stone (to block out extraneous light), and if the stones were of a similar general appearance (which Martin says they were), it is entirely plausible that Joseph wouldn't have noticed. I mean, if he sees a stone in the hat very similar to the one he possessed, his mind would likely automatically assume it was one and the same. That is how our minds work, at least in layman's terms. We have layers of prioritization, and minute details are often overlooked as long as everything seems fairly normal in the broader brush strokes of life. 

I have a pillow case that I really like, and my wife has one that she likes. They are easy to tell apart once you know what to look for, but it is an incidental detail in my life. So when we wash the bed sheets, I often forget which case is whose. I have to feel them closely and sometimes even sleep on them to remember which one I like. We also often forget whose toothbrush is whose with all of our kids. Sometimes I pick up my own toothbrush and wonder if it is the same one I have been using for weeks. If someone swapped mine out for a slightly different model with fairly similar but different color, I probably wouldn't notice right away. I would most likely just see the place where my toothbrush is located, notice that it looks similar to the one I have been using, and not assume anyone purposefully swapped it out to fool me.

I'm not saying toothbrushes and pillowcases are the same as Joseph's seer stone. They aren't, and the stone surely held more significance for him. But my toothbrush also usually isn't sitting in the bottom of a hat that I purposefully block out light with when trying to look at it. The point is that it seems entirely plausible for Joseph to have not noticed the swap. And for me, at least, it seems less plausible that he was merely pretending to go along with Martin's ruse. To each his or her own, I guess. 

Edited by Ryan Dahle
Link to comment
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ryan Dahle said:

Exactly. If it was in the hat which is darker and not so openly visible, and if Joseph typically enclosed the hat when he looked into the stone (to block out extraneous light), and if the stones were of a similar general appearance (which Martin says they were), it is entirely plausible that Joseph wouldn't have noticed. I mean, if he sees a stone in the hat very similar to the one he possessed, his mind would likely automatically assume it was one and the same. That is how our minds work, at least in layman's terms. We have layers of prioritization, and minute details are often overlooked as long as everything seems fairly normal in the broader brush strokes of life. 

I have a pillow case that I really like, and my wife has one that she likes. They are easy to tell apart once you know what to look for, but it is an incidental detail in my life. So when we wash the bed sheets, I often forget which case is whose. I have to feel them closely and sometimes even sleep on them to remember which one I like. We also often forget whose toothbrush is whose with all of our kids. Sometimes I pick up my own toothbrush and wonder if it is the same one I have been using for weeks. If someone swapped mine out for a slightly different model with fairly similar but different color, I probably wouldn't notice right away. I would most likely just see the place where my toothbrush is located, notice that it looks similar to the one I have been using, and not assume anyone purposefully swapped it out to fool me.

I'm not saying toothbrushes and pillowcases are the same as Joseph's seer stone. They aren't, and the stone surely held more significance for him. But my toothbrush also usually isn't sitting in the bottom of a hat that I purposefully block out light with when trying to look at it. The point is that it seems entirely plausible for Joseph to have not noticed the swap. And for me, at least, it seems less plausible that he was merely pretending to go along with Martin's ruse. To each his or her own, I guess. 

And so this is a direct confirmation of the role of PSYCHOLOGY in our understanding of the gospel.

Some here think, along with Harris, that switching stones would affect the revelation in some way, and obviously it didn't.

People here think Joseph needed the stone, comparing it to a cellphone perhaps or some kind of magic spiritual "device" like the Liahona etc.

There is no science that can back that up. 

One may have a testimony that such a device was needed, but all that shows is that God is willing to allow that psychological device - THERE IS the "device": psychology.

Yet switching the stones proves that a magic stone was not a requirement for Joseph's revelation any more than the plates, in a box, were!!

Clearly these were psychological crutches Joseph AND WE often need to believe!

They are the placebo pill that gives us faith because we are stuck in a Cartesian philosophical divide between "matter" and "spirit", a view not justifiable in philosophy OR doctrinally, since we know from scripture that matter and spirit are one.

If we want a device, see your own spirit/mind/brain AS THE DEVICE designed by God to allow all to receive revelation!

The "radio" is your human mind! Call it what you want, it is just semantics!

And that radio does not need history- a human interpretation of linear experience- as a crutch to revelation either!

God lives in an eternal present where all is "present" continually. God's eternal Intelligence creates and defines all that our baby intelligences can ever know. We call that "omniscience" because we cannot know anything beyond what God knows!  God's knowledge sets the boundaries of what humans have the ability to know, I believe.

All of this is what I believe and know, by the way, nothing more or less. And for me, "knowledge" is psychological certainty.  

So likewise we don't NEED to believe in historical Nephites, to learn the revealed lessons of the Book of Mormon

Joseph did not NEED the plates or stones.

Joseph did not NEED the BOM papyrus to receive those revelations, and thinking so is just off base IMO

Joseph received hundreds of pages of scriptural revelation WITHOUT any "magic" devices, for the D&C, and other spiritual projects, clearly he did not need such after he had confidence in God's ability to send us revelation, and neither do we!

We just need faith and need to listen.  Our "radio" frequency is already locked in on our own spirit radios, and we get our unique path GPS /G.O.D. map directions from the same radio frequency.

THAT'S  the only spirit gizmo we need!

NOTICE ALSO, WITH THIS APPROACH TO APOLOGETICS, WE DO AWAY WITH ANY HISTORICAL CONCERNS ABOUT ANYTHING AND ALL "TRANSLATION" ISSUES AT ONCE.

IT WAS ALL REVELATION, AND YOU CAN GET YOUR OWN.

PERIOD!!! 

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And so this is a direct confirmation of the role of PSYCHOLOGY in our understanding of the gospel.

Some here think, along with Harris, that switching stones would affect the revelation in some way, and obviously it didn't.

People here think Joseph needed the stone, comparing it to a cellphone perhaps or some kind of magic spiritual "device" like the Liahona etc.

There is no science that can back that up. 

One may have a testimony that such a device was needed, but all that shows is that God is willing to allow that psychological device - THERE IS the "device": psychology.

Yet switching the stones proves that a magic stone was not a requirement for Joseph's revelation any more than the plates, in a box, were!!

Clearly these were psychological crutches Joseph AND WE often need to believe!

They are the placebo pill that gives us faith because we are stuck in a Cartesian philosophical divide between "matter" and "spirit", a view not justifiable in philosophy OR doctrinally, since we know from scripture that matter and spirit are one.

If we want a device, see your own spirit/mind/brain AS THE DEVICE designed by God to allow all to receive revelation!

The "radio" is your human mind! Call it what you want, it is just semantics!

And that radio does not need history- a human interpretation of linear experience- as a crutch to revelation either!

God lives in an eternal present where all is "present" continually. God's eternal Intelligence creates and defines all that our baby intelligences can ever know. We call that "omniscience" because we cannot know anything beyond what God knows!  God's knowledge sets the boundaries of what humans have the ability to know, I believe.

All of this is what I believe and know, by the way, nothing more or less. And for me, "knowledge" is psychological certainty.  

So likewise we don't NEED to believe in historical Nephites, to learn the revealed lessons of the Book of Mormon

Joseph did not NEED the plates or stones.

Joseph did not NEED the BOM papyrus to receive those revelations, and thinking so is just off base IMO

Joseph received hundreds of pages of scriptural revelation WITHOUT any "magic" devices, for the D&C, and other spiritual projects, clearly he did not need such after he had confidence in God's ability to send us revelation, and neither do we!

We just need faith and need to listen.  Our "radio" frequency is already locked in on our own spirit radios, and we get our unique path GPS /G.O.D. map directions from the same radio frequency.

THAT'S  the only spirit gizmo we need!

NOTICE ALSO, WITH THIS APPROACH TO APOLOGETICS, WE DO AWAY WITH ANY HISTORICAL CONCERNS ABOUT ANYTHING AND ALL "TRANSLATION" ISSUES AT ONCE.

IT WAS ALL REVELATION, AND YOU CAN GET YOUR OWN.

PERIOD!!! 

Why a prophet?

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Why a prophet?

Someone known to be worthy of revelation, believed to have perhaps the strongest spiritual connection, with a very good "radio"

Again though we ALL  need to have our OWN revelations that the prophet is "True"

But SOMEONE has to be a leader with authority in any organization.

For me, pres. Nelson is one of the best, and I love the direction he is going.

The church has always taught that we each need our own testimonies of every principle 

Link to comment
5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yet switching the stones proves that a magic stone was not a requirement for Joseph's revelation any more than the plates, in a box, were!!

I made an error here- I was not acquainted with the story and so it appears I got it backwards.  This story then appears to show that a particular stone WAS required for the Lord  to make the revelation.  There was a  bit of discussion following that, see above.   We have no way of knowing what "really happened" anyway- perhaps Joseph saw it was the wrong stone, perhaps he didn't.   One subjectively interpreted experiment does not justify a scientific belief anyway.

Remember I am putting forth a paradigm here that scientific "facts" are not required for a testimony.  THAT is my major point.  I am not concerned about the stone either way, and it is clear that eventually Joseph realized that a stone was not required to receive revelation.

The question is not whether or not the stone made a difference, but is much larger- it is about whether or not scientific methodology is relevant to spiritual matters, and that scriptures are scientifically "correct".

I believe it is obvious that that is not the case, but we all get to pick what paradigm gives meaning to our lives

Link to comment

If he didn't have the plates to start with not many would have been interested in listening to what he had to say or reading it. It is psychological. He needed a starting point.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...