Don’t cross this line

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Has the church come out against dirty soda yet?  I've seen several articles in the past week discussing its origin in Utah.  Is it really a big deal there?  I've never heard anyone mention it here on the other side of the country.

https://www.today.com/food/trends/what-is-dirty-soda-rcna26689

Why would the church come out against it?  

It's just pop with flavorings and/or cream in it (the flavorings like you can get added when you use those fancy coke pop dispensers at a lot of fast food restaurants now, or like the Italian ice flavorings).

I'm in northern Utah and no one calls them dirty sodas up here that I've heard.  I think that's a Swiig thing and that seems to be more south of us (though we do have one in the county now that just came in a few months ago I think).

Around here the go to place for pop with extras is Fiiz.  And I haven't seen a "dirty" anything on their (vast and much better than swiig) menu.  But the menu is huge so maybe I missed it on there somewhere.

You can get flavors added to any base option--sprite, root beer, coke/pepsi, mountain dew, dr. pepper, flavored water, Dt. or zero whatever, or lemonade.

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just be careful not to get caught up in the paralysis of analysis. 

Or you may end up in the humdrum of conundrum. 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Is it really a big deal there?

https://www.today.com/food/trends/what-is-dirty-soda-rcna26689

Oh yes, it is big.  There is never not a line in the hundreds of soda shops across the state.  And it seems to be spreading like a malignancy across the west:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/06/dining/swig-soda-shop-chains.html

If a soda wasn't bad enough, you get a big ol' sugar cookie to go with it! 

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Has the church come out against dirty soda yet?  I've seen several articles in the past week discussing its origin in Utah.  Is it really a big deal there?  I've never heard anyone mention it here on the other side of the country.

https://www.today.com/food/trends/what-is-dirty-soda-rcna26689

What would the church say about it?

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

Has the church come out against dirty soda yet?  I've seen several articles in the past week discussing its origin in Utah.  Is it really a big deal there?  I've never heard anyone mention it here on the other side of the country.

https://www.today.com/food/trends/what-is-dirty-soda-rcna26689

When I first read "dirty soda" I was thinking it was soda with espresso in it. I love "dirty chai" -- chai tea with a shot of espresso in it. Soda + espresso sounds weird, so I'm glad it's something less weird, ha.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

What would the church say about it?

Nothing after the cola backpedal a few years ago.

[rodheadlee]

I'd have a TR if Marlboros were allowed. I know, I know, quit. I obey all the eating rules. Don't drink booze. No point in dropping coffee until I quit smoking. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Nothing after the cola backpedal a few years ago.

Somewhat tangentially....

What's the history behind the Church's relationship with caffeinated sodas?  I was inactive through my early teen years, but when I started going back to Church in my late teens in the mid 1990's, I never picked up on or internalized a taboo against Coke or Pepsi (or Mountain Dew, my own brew of choice).  I was actually surprised by roommates at BYU who didn't drink Coke.  Was it a Utah thing?  A generational thing?  A McConkie thing?  Was it a BYU-doesn't-sell-it-so-I'm-not-going-to-drink-it thing? 

I'm just curious if there really was a front-pedal that was eventually back-pedaled. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Somewhat tangentially....

What's the history behind the Church's relationship with caffeinated sodas?  I was inactive through my early teen years, but when I started going back to Church in my late teens in the mid 1990's, I never picked up on or internalized a taboo against Coke or Pepsi (or Mountain Dew, my own brew of choice).  I was actually surprised by roommates at BYU who didn't drink Coke.  Was it a Utah thing?  A generational thing?  A McConkie thing?  Was it a BYU-doesn't-sell-it-so-I'm-not-going-to-drink-it thing? 

I'm just curious if there really was a front-pedal that was eventually back-pedaled. 

I was going to ask this same question.  I know of people who believed that drinking caffeine was against the WoW, and BYU and other "church" places/activities went along with it by not serving it, but I was never taught that it was bad myself, and certainly never heard anything official about it from a church source.

Where did the idea come from?

[gopher]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Why would the church come out against it?  

 

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

What would the church say about it?

It just sounds so unwholesome and unhealthy.

[ksfisher]

21 minutes ago, gopher said:

 

It just sounds so unwholesome and unhealthy.

Along with pretty much everything on the menu at McDonald's.

[HappyJackWagon]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:38 AM, JLHPROF said:

Member: "The Word of Wisdom is beneficial and based in scripture.  You shouldn't have a problem with it as a rule."

Critic: "Our issue is with the way you only follow select parts and ignore others, add new rules, and science/health fact have no bearing on it."

How many times do we have to do this dance? WoW is an obedience test, not a purification policy.

I said this exact thing to a faithful member recently and they were aghast at the idea that God would use obedience and/or loyalty tests on its members. Does a loving parent create obedience and loyalty tests for his children?

In the case of the WoW it is my personal belief that it is not a test created by God but is indeed an obedience test created by church leaders. It amounts to a policy, not a commandment. The church certainly has the power to enforce the policy via worthiness interviews and participation limits, but it most definitely IS a test.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

 

It just sounds so unwholesome and unhealthy.

I'm sure it's not that healthy if people are getting them all the time (especially the full sugar options) but it don't know what's "unwholesome" about pop with a squirt of coconut syrup in it.

I don't know that it's any more unhealthy than getting a pop at Maverick every day though.

[bluebell]

On 5/14/2022 at 7:38 AM, JLHPROF said:

Member: "The Word of Wisdom is beneficial and based in scripture.  You shouldn't have a problem with it as a rule."

Critic: "Our issue is with the way you only follow select parts and ignore others, add new rules, and science/health fact have no bearing on it."

How many times do we have to do this dance? WoW is an obedience test, not a purification policy.

I fall into the line of thinking that the WoW is a means to set us apart, that also has some obvious health benefits during our day and age.  Kind of like the food prohibitions in the Law of Moses.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

 

It just sounds so unwholesome and unhealthy.

Do you want kosher laws? Because this how you get kosher laws.

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I said this exact thing to a faithful member recently and they were aghast at the idea that God would use obedience and/or loyalty tests on its members. Does a loving parent create obedience and loyalty tests for his children?

Considering the very prevalent horrors allowed on this Earth I have to wonder at what kind of person say that that is all okay for a loving God and then becomes aghast at an obedience or loyalty test? Do they live in some kind of Cotton Candy Land and haven't endured or seen intense ongoing suffering?

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I said this exact thing to a faithful member recently and they were aghast at the idea that God would use obedience and/or loyalty tests on its members. Does a loving parent create obedience and loyalty tests for his children?

Sometimes we get caught up in the parent/child relationship between God and us, and neglect the God/adult relationship. Not saying this will change anyone's view on this matter, but sometimes God treats us as adults and not children, and more often than not.

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I said this exact thing to a faithful member recently and they were aghast at the idea that God would use obedience and/or loyalty tests on its members. Does a loving parent create obedience and loyalty tests for his children?

 

Really?  I find it rather odd that a faithful member would be so shocked at the idea of obedience and loyalty tests.  The ENTIRE Plan of Salvation, as interpreted by Mormon theology, is a test of obedience.  And the way our scripture manuals teach about the Abrahamic Test and liken it to our own lives would be impossible without a belief that a loving parent DOES create obedience and loyalty tests.   

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I was going to ask this same question.  I know of people who believed that drinking caffeine was against the WoW, and BYU and other "church" places/activities went along with it by not serving it, but I was never taught that it was bad myself, and certainly never heard anything official about it from a church source.

Where did the idea come from?

A quick Google search shows that several Latter-day Saint prophets/apostles have either directly or indirectly urged us not to use caffeinated soft drinks. At the same time, this has never been made a requirement or added to the Word of Wisdom as codified under Brigham Young. This link provides a decent summary.

The confusion, it appears to me, occurs when members struggle to grasp how something can be discouraged by prophets without being officially banned.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

A quick Google search shows that several Latter-day Saint prophets/apostles have either directly or indirectly urged us not to use caffeinated soft drinks. At the same time, this has never been made a requirement or added to the Word of Wisdom as codified under Brigham Young. This link provides a decent summary.

The confusion, it appears to me, occurs when members struggle to grasp how something can be discouraged by prophets without being officially banned.

And let’s not forget Pres. McKay, whose favorite drink was Coke, IIRC. 😁

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

And let’s not forget Pres. McKay, whose favorite drink was Coke, IIRC. 😁

And President Woodruff loved coffee, as did J. Golden Kimball.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Along with pretty much everything on the menu at McDonald's.

But there's something in their cheeseburgers that is addictive to me. 

[Chum]

I figure as long as the fridge is stocked, the dietary things will sort themselves out.

 

[BlueDreams]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:01 PM, Fether said:

This is particularly for the word of wisdom, but it exists in other commandments.

Why are there things that keep us from good standing of the church and others that do not. 
 

For example, drinking tea will keep you from the temple, but being 600lbs and having a diet of pizza and ice cream does not.

What justifies the line?

I ask because my brother in law is wanting to get back into the church, but he cannot justify why we cannot vape… but having a major energy drink addiction doesn’t stop anyone from being in Good standing.

thoughts?

 I didn't know they now ask questions about vaping. I'm sure they do, I just haven't paid close attention or had a need to know such things.

That aside, I probably fall under the ease of following reasoning. These are more straight forward to follow. I also think it's a means to get people started on a course that's alligned with how God would like us to live both temporally and spiritually. Most of the temple recommend questions to me are meant to be more bare minimums moreso than exact perfection. Which is why a number were reworded to emphasize "striving" to live them than assume absolutely doing so (which is often how people were/are taking some....like the LoC). 

On a controversial note, I personally believe most people (at least in developed country that heavily rely on large scale farming) can't follow the WoW in its entirety. It entails a societal level shift in agricultural practices, not just in individual diet. In a community where the WoW was fully practiced, several industrial farming practices would likely get the boot too or at least drastically shift. Not that you can come fairly close, but unless you're in some form of small scale farming community and buy all things in their season and use meat extremely sparingly....you're likely a ways off from the WoW.

    

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm sure it's not that healthy if people are getting them all the time (especially the full sugar options) but it don't know what's "unwholesome" about pop with a squirt of coconut syrup in it.

I don't know that it's any more unhealthy than getting a pop at Maverick every day though.

Probably depends your reference point. I have little to no sweet tooth when it comes to added sugar. It happened slowly, and I used to have more of one. But I'm at the point that I prefer the taste of plain yogurt over sweetened and find even breads a little too sweet in the US (they're less sweet apparently in other countries). I can't handle most american desserts. With that reference point, the pop with a squirt of coconut syrup kinda sounds really gross. I tried a "dirty soda" with friends exactly once and I couldn't finish the drink. I think the closest analogy is picturing yourself scooping sugar or salt directly into your mouth. From my reference point there's nothing really wholesome (as in conducive to good health) by the average pop.*

I don't think one's health is in jeopardy from just having a rare soda though. It's fun and people like them. It's just not reaching the definition of wholesome to me (conducive to or suggestive of good health and physical well-being)

 

*At this point my idea of soda is either taking lemon, mint, or something like it in a carbonated water or cutting a martinelli down with carbonated water....that last option I can still only do a little of before my body starts saying "too much" to the sugar.    

 

With luv,

BD

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Really?  I find it rather odd that a faithful member would be so shocked at the idea of obedience and loyalty tests.  The ENTIRE Plan of Salvation, as interpreted by Mormon theology, is a test of obedience.  And the way our scripture manuals teach about the Abrahamic Test and liken it to our own lives would be impossible without a belief that a loving parent DOES create obedience and loyalty tests.   

I must be overestimating their faithfulness  

I think for some people they may intellectually recognize the Abrahamic stories as challenges to faithfulness while not quite thinking about them in terms of loyalty tests. Loyalty test has a more negative connotation so it doesn't seem odd to me that someone would see something as a test of obedience and loyalty without seeing it as a "loyalty test".