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Don’t cross this line


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Posted (edited)

This is particularly for the word of wisdom, but it exists in other commandments.

Why are there things that keep us from good standing of the church and others that do not. 
 

For example, drinking tea will keep you from the temple, but being 600lbs and having a diet of pizza and ice cream does not.

What justifies the line?

I ask because my brother in law is wanting to get back into the church, but he cannot justify why we cannot vape… but having a major energy drink addiction doesn’t stop anyone from being in Good standing.

thoughts?

Edited by Fether
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A lot of the Word of Wisdom is willing obedience. Simply offering a broken heart and contrite spirit. Vaping is one of the things we are asked to abstain. Red Bulls and pizza are not on that list.

I would also like to add that obesity is not good stewardship of our bodies. And this is a major struggle for many people who will be fighting against obesity their whole life because of genetics, addiction, Etc.

It would also be awkward to need to pass a BMI threshold to get a temple recommend. 

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38 minutes ago, Fether said:

This is particularly for the word of wisdom, but it exists in other commandments.

Why are there things that keep us from good standing of the church and others that do not. 
 

For example, drinking tea will keep you from the temple, but being 600lbs and having a diet of pizza and ice cream does not.

What justifies the line?

I ask because my brother in law is wanting to get back into the church, but he cannot justify why we cannot vape… but having a major energy drink addiction doesn’t stop anyone from being in Good standing.

thoughts?

In light of all the well publicized health risks associated vaping, one would hope your brother-in-law would have the wisdom and foresight to give up vaping on his own without any pressure from the Church.

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12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In light of all the well publicized health risks associated vaping, one would hope your brother-in-law would have the wisdom and foresight to give up vaping on his own without any pressure from the Church.

It depends on what is being vaped. There is not much data if it’s just flavored liquid. Adding nicotine or CBD of course has side effects.

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39 minutes ago, Danzo said:

o make admiration easier and more uniform.

Administration?  I would agree.  It becomes less leader roulette.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, filovirus said:

It depends on what is being vaped. There is not much data if it’s just flavored liquid. Adding nicotine or CBD of course has side effects.

There was that problem with added vitamin e oil.  Since even Vitamin E can be dangerous vaped, I am very cautious about vaping anything…and yes, I have a vaper or whatever they are called; tried it for my medical marijuana, gives me weird sore throats even if cool; prefer the controlled dosage of gummies, but if vaped cannabis helped with pain…which marijuana does not for me or nausea which it was, but not vaped…I can see being willing to take the risk if in major distress….but seriously, risking severe lung disease for entertainment?

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html

Edited by Calm
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22 minutes ago, filovirus said:

It depends on what is being vaped. There is not much data if it’s just flavored liquid. Adding nicotine or CBD of course has side effects.

Let me clarify. What I meant by “side effects” is chemically induced changes. We can use these changes as medical as well as non-medical uses. The WoW discourages it’s use for non-medical.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

This is particularly for the word of wisdom, but it exists in other commandments.

Why are there things that keep us from good standing of the church and others that do not. 
 

For example, drinking tea will keep you from the temple, but being 600lbs and having a diet of pizza and ice cream does not.

What justifies the line?

I ask because my brother in law is wanting to get back into the church, but he cannot justify why we cannot vape… but having a major energy drink addiction doesn’t stop anyone from being in Good standing.

thoughts?

Stupid rules result in stupid results.  Drinking tea or coffee, or have a beer or glass of wine here or there will leave you much healthier than being over weight and eating all sorts of things that are not good for you. Coffee and tea are likely good for you. Beer and wine, maybe not so much even in moderation.  But just look at obesity rates among your ward members and then try to talk about the WoW and worthiness.  It is ludicrous.

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

In light of all the well publicized health risks associated vaping, one would hope your brother-in-law would have the wisdom and foresight to give up vaping on his own without any pressure from the Church.

Well that is the point. Vaping is not good for you health wise.  Nor is smoking, Nor is alcohol maybe even in moderation.  But why make these things a worthiness issue? If the WoW is really God directed and needed for worthiness to enter the temple let's make it mandatory on obesity, eating to much meat, etc.  To make what someone consumes or does not consume a test of following some God is just plain dumb. It is really about control.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Well that is the point. Vaping is not good for you health wise.  Nor is smoking, Nor is alcohol maybe even in moderation.  But why make these things a worthiness issue? If the WoW is really God directed and needed for worthiness to enter the temple let's make it mandatory on obesity, eating to much meat, etc.  To make what someone consumes or does not consume a test of following some God is just plain dumb. It is really about control.

Just plain dumb? I’m quite certain that since the dawn of the restoration there have been literally many tens of thousands of Latter-Day Saints who’ve avoided destructive, enslaving addictions to alcohol, tobacco and drugs because they allowed themselves to be “controlled” by the Word of Wisdom. I hope you don’t feel offended when I say that I think your jaundiced view of the Word of Wisdom is just plain dumb.

Edited by teddyaware
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40 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Just plain dumb? I’m quite certain that since the dawn of the restoration there have been literally many tens of thousands of Latter-Day Saints who’ve avoided destructive, enslaving addictions to alcohol, tobacco and drugs because they allowed themselves to be “controlled” by the Word of Wisdom. I hope you don’t feel offended when I say that I think your jaundiced view of the Word of Wisdom is just plain dumb.

So why was it only given in this dispensation?

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well that is the point. Vaping is not good for you health wise.  Nor is smoking, Nor is alcohol maybe even in moderation.  But why make these things a worthiness issue? If the WoW is really God directed and needed for worthiness to enter the temple let's make it mandatory on obesity, eating to much meat, etc.  To make what someone consumes or does not consume a test of following some God is just plain dumb. It is really about control.

No, it is about practicality.

Judging success at “Do” commandments is subjective to all but god.

Judging success at “Do Not” commandments is easy.

I doubt you would actually be impressed if the Church had an upper BMI limit to enter the temple or mandated all Saints get food scales to measure their meat intake.

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2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Just plain dumb? I’m quite certain that since the dawn of the restoration there have been literally many tens of thousands of Latter-Day Saints who’ve avoided destructive, enslaving addictions to alcohol, tobacco and drugs because they allowed themselves to be “controlled” by the Word of Wisdom. I hope you don’t feel offended when I say that I think your jaundiced view of the Word of Wisdom is just plain dumb.

I survived all I thought the '60's had to offer, went cold Turkey on everything, lost 125 lbs and kept it off.

"Stupid" as it allegedly was, just doing it was a life changer.

I know that with God's help I can do anything.  Period.

It was not me who did it, and THAT was the lesson I learned no matter how "stupid" following the rules seemed to be to those who have no clue about what it's really about.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Just plain dumb?

Yes.

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

I’m quite certain that since the dawn of the restoration there have been literally many tens of thousands of Latter-Day Saints who’ve avoided destructive, enslaving addictions to alcohol, tobacco and drugs because they allowed themselves to be “controlled” by the Word of Wisdom.

Did you read my post?  I did say alcohol is not good for you. Nor tobacco, etc. But having some arbitrary rule that you have to obey to get in the best place the church has is simple control. Jesus did drink wine He said what comes out of your mouth defiles you not what goes into your mouth.  The WoW was not a mandate till HJG. Why did it become so?  Also eating lots of meat, sugar and lots of other stuff is worse than a beer here and there health wise.  Food can be addictive as well. Lots of stuff can be addictive.  The Church can be addictive.  Why does tea keep you out of the temple and being obese does not?  See that is why it is a dumb rule.  Life is full of risks. I think the benefits of following the WoW are terrific.  Just making it a rule to get the the highest heaven is dumb.

 

Tea is good for you but will keep you out of the temple. Same with coffee.

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

I hope you don’t feel offended when I say that I think your jaundiced view of the Word of Wisdom is just plain dumb.

It does not offend me at all.  I understand WHY you think that way. But your reasoning on this is not rational.

Edited by Teancum
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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is about practicality.

Judging success at “Do” commandments is subjective to all but god.

Judging success at “Do Not” commandments is easy.

I doubt you would actually be impressed if the Church had an upper BMI limit to enter the temple or mandated all Saints get food scales to measure their meat intake.

The point is it is only arbitrary and about control.  If the Church really cred about health then they would focus on other things. Latter day Saints love to thump their chest about avoiding coffee, alcohol, tea and tobacco and drugs but still have many unhealthy food practices.

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7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It's like asking why the Jews have kosher rules, or why they must follow 613 commandments in order to be observant Jews.  A Jew is still a Jew even if he fails to follow all those rules.  Just so a Mormon is still a Mormon even if he is a Jack Mormon.  Vaping does not mean that a Latter-day Saint is no longer a member of the Church.  Hardly anyone is excommunicated for smoking or drinking.  You might not get a temple recommend, but you are still a member in good standing.  Moreover, one can still repent as often as necessary.  That's what Jews believe also.  Repentance and grace are central to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and also central to Judaism.

What line do you think cannot be crossed?

He understands this. He is working toward going to the temple. He is just confused by the inconsistency of the lines he cannot cross to be worthy of the temple

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31 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The point is it is only arbitrary and about control.  If the Church really cred about health then they would focus on other things. Latter day Saints love to thump their chest about avoiding coffee, alcohol, tea and tobacco and drugs but still have many unhealthy food practices.

It is not arbitrary. I literally just posted why some things are considered hard limits on what you can do because they are easy to objectively verify for any idiot doing a self-evaluation. It is the difference between “Did you eat a piece of cake” and “did you eat healthy today”.

Chest-thumping over the Word of Wisdom? Why do you hang out with idiots who do that?

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The Word of Wisdom was to be "adapted to the weakest of the Saints" (D&C 89:3) and it has. It was over time, little by little, that leaders urged greater observance and more dedicated commitment as the church saw an increase in observance. What Joseph Smith treated as virtues but secondary to commandments became refined under Brigham Young in non-canonized declarations, defining hot drinks as coffee and tea and strong drink as spirits.  I believe are inspired, but just saying, it really only became hard lined during the Temperance Movement. So if if has gone too far, it can, though hard, be undone.

I think of it the way my Bishop once said to a man asking if his new diet that called for drinking Green Tea was against the word of wisdom. He said, "No, the word of wisdom does not say anything about green tea, but neither does it say anything about black tea, it says "tea". I teach correct principles and let the people govern themselves."

Bishops generally don't dig deep and force their own interpretation during the Bishop's Interview of their own accord. Its not his job to catch you in a lie, its your job to have self reflection and given a simple but honest answer. He may ask if you observe the "word of wisdom", I know a few people who take "substances" for what is in their own minds were "medical" purposes and felt justified to say "yes" to that question without follow up. I imagine there are others that excuse decaffeinated coffee and perhaps vaping.

A Bishop may quote but not interpret the law of the tithe, he cannot say you should pay your net gains or gross, he simply ask if you paid an "honest tithe". A Bishop may ask "do you wear your garments?" But he does not ask, "every day", "while playing sports", and "in the shower"? It between you and your conscience.

I think its not a health code, but as a priestly Purification rite. Purification rites is any act or custom employed to create a higher degree of purity simply in relation to the society and culture around them. All known religions in ancient times do have this idea, in one form or another, that the inner essence of man can be defiled. These ideas usually included the body, on the one hand, and mental or spiritual faculties, on the other. So its not always about health. It is hoped by practicing abstinence will create a higher degree of purity in a person.

Fortunate the many purification rites don't have any purgative effect, just washing the hands or body, changing the clothes, reciting a prayer, anointing the person with some ritually pure substance. But some cultures they involve ordeals, including blood-letting, vomiting, and beating. At least we aren't as dumb as those.

I for one like the Word of Wisdom. Because I love the old ways. We are the last hold outs for the temple priesthood in this age and temple priests can't drink and going to a temple.

Those who are set apart for service to God are instructed to totally abstain from alcohol (Judges 13:4; Leviticus 10:9; Luke 1:15).

Priests are not to drink wine, while attending in the tabernacle

“Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you will not die—it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations—" (Leviticus 10:9)

Nor shall any of the priests drink wine when they enter the inner court. (Ezekiel 44:21)

Even though the common man drank wine without sin, being drunk was a sin (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20, 29–32; Isaiah 5:22; Ephesians 5:18).

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13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

it is only ... about control.

I think the evidence bears out to the contrary. WoW was issued a long time ago and mostly stands alone. If the compulsion for control were in play here we'd have something like 150 years of expanding health policies.

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

it is only arbitrary ...  If the Church really cared about health then they would focus on other things.

I see a reasonable argument here. In response I offer this. The vibe I get is that concerns for physical health largely exist to supplement the greater concerns for spiritual and psychological welfare. That is, we need sufficient health to nurture happiness.

33 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Latter day Saints love to thump their chest about avoiding coffee, alcohol, tea and tobacco and drugs but still have many unhealthy food practices.

I don't think we're immune to running our mouths. We can feel vulnerable like anyone else.

As far as potential hypocrisy goes, it gives me an opening to repeat this; I find hypocrisy to be much, much less a problem than is commonly assumed. I appreciate the invite to do that.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Teancum said:

The point is it is only arbitrary and about control. 

I'd like to speak more generally about this. I have been observing that the Church tends to be hands off and indirect regarding most behaviors (w/ visible exceptions). In situations where Saints' behaviors might benefit from some guided manipulation, instead of Do/Don't, we are regularly encouraged to develop mindsets that more broadly achieve benevolent results.

For example, instead of being told outright to stop succumbing to political divisions, we've been given guidance to be more involved in each other lives. We've been given examples of how acts of forgiveness can manifest. This is annoying to me when hearing "Knock It The Hell Off" would be really satisfying.  However, that sort of direct direction can be super problematic. One way is that some members will invariably use it to force others to change their behavior. (We need less of that. Every day.) Another issue is that specific direction can morph into a mandate and mandates are heavy and have a way of piling up.

The general principle behind this might be something like - we want ways to hurt each other less but those ways also need to increase happiness in people's lives.

Edited by Chum
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