BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Snodgrassian]

Grandstanding your opposition to the"system" is a risky move. I feel for BYU students who are in the final semesters of their education and are stuck between "authenticity" and graduation. The easy solution is to transfer if you find it difficult to live the Honor Code. The real struggle is that transferring BYU credits is very difficult and is often unsuccessful. I feel for the students, though my sympathy/empathy is lessened by grandstanding. The person in the OP was minutes/hours from living the life she wants, patience is truly a virtue. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

Grandstanding your opposition to the"system" is a risky move. I feel for BYU students who are in the final semesters of their education and are stuck between "authenticity" and graduation. The easy solution is to transfer if you find it difficult to live the Honor Code. The real struggle is that transferring BYU credits is very difficult and is often unsuccessful. I feel for the students, though my sympathy/empathy is lessened by grandstanding. The person in the OP was minutes/hours from living the life she wants, patience is truly a virtue. 

Making credits from BYU easier to transfer could be one way that the school helps to solve this problem. 

I understand how someone could start a degree with one belief system and then have that morph into something different during those four years.  I wouldn't consider such students to have done anything wrong by choosing BYU after high school.  And it's hard for me to fault someone who knows that if they try to transfer schools because of changing beliefs, they are going to lose credits and probably add on to the time it takes to get their degree (and thus, increase the cost of it), and so doesn't want to do that.

At the same time, lying about beliefs, or breaking the honor code and getting away with it, is a poor character move, and pretty slimey in some instances (like the one in the OP, in my opinion). 

If BYU can't better enforce their honor code (and I don't think they can without doing a lot of damage to all the students), then why not make it easier for kids to leave with their credits intact who don't want to keep it anymore.  

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

Grandstanding your opposition to the"system" is a risky move. I feel for BYU students who are in the final semesters of their education and are stuck between "authenticity" and graduation. The easy solution is to transfer if you find it difficult to live the Honor Code. The real struggle is that transferring BYU credits is very difficult and is often unsuccessful. I feel for the students, though my sympathy/empathy is lessened by grandstanding. The person in the OP was minutes/hours from living the life she wants, patience is truly a virtue. 

I think if the student got a credit for the tithing they have paid in the last 5 years, it would even out the playing field a little better. 

[MrShorty]

@bluebell That's what I'm talking about -- finding practical ways to actually change rather than simply expressing outrage that a student at BYU flaunted the honor code and is proud of it. If it is as much of a problem as our outrage suggests, then we need to figure out how to enforce the honor code or help them find a different university.

[smac97]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Making credits from BYU easier to transfer could be one way that the school helps to solve this problem. 

Agreed.  I'm curious as to the transferability of BYU credits as compared to other comparable schools.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Making credits from BYU easier to transfer could be one way that the school helps to solve this problem. 

I understand how someone could start a degree with one belief system and then have that morph into something different during those four years.  I wouldn't consider such students to have done anything wrong by choosing BYU after high school.  And it's hard for me to fault someone who knows that if they try to transfer schools because of changing beliefs, they are going to lose credits and probably add on to the time it takes to get their degree (and thus, increase the cost of it), and so doesn't want to do that.

At the same time, lying about beliefs, or breaking the honor code and getting away with it, is a poor character move, and pretty slimey in some instances (like the one in the OP, in my opinion). 

If BYU can't better enforce their honor code (and I don't think they can without doing a lot of damage to all the students), then why not make it easier for kids to leave with their credits intact who don't want to keep it anymore.  

What would it take for BYU to make its credits more easily transferable (asking because I honestly don’t know)? If it would involve compromising elements of its mission or values, I might find that objectionable. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think if the student got a credit for the tithing they have paid in the last 5 years, it would even out the playing field a little better. 

What do you mean by “credit”? A refund of the tithing paid? 
 

The income of a typical college student is so paltry, I’m guessing the refund amount would be nearly negligible, especially when weighed against the amount with which the student’s education was subsidized from the tithing funds of the Church. Given the fact that non-member student tuition is about double that paid by Church members who enroll, the subsidy is quite sizable. 

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would it take for BYU to make its credits more easily transferable (asking because I honestly don’t know)? If it would involve compromising elements of its mission or values, I might find that objectionable. 

If making it easier to transfer credits violates their mission and values, perhaps their mission and values need to be updated so as to not compromise them.   I don't see how it would compromise their mission or values though, unless they are centered in unrighteous dominion.  Lets not conflate BYU mission and values with absolute and unchangeable perfection and truth.  There may be room for improvement...unless you are opposed to eternal progression. 

[MustardSeed]

This week there was a kerruffle at BYU I - an anatomy professor had “edited out” genitalia in the diagrams identifying the proper medical names for the entire body and its parts.  This because the freshmen were too young to be exposed to such things.  

If people don’t take BYU seriously enough to accept transfer credits, maybe we can start with the basics.  Like knowing what a scrotum is and what it looks like when one is 19 years old and pre med. 

 

I wish students who had **no intention** of following the basics - cheating, drinking, drugging and sexing would (for their own benefits and for the honorable reason of leaving space for those who buy in to the honor code to be able to attend) bow out.

As for the OP,  I don’t have respect for this person’s  M.O.   - I don’t care if she’s bisexual or not. It appears to me that she is safely thumbing her nose at the honor code, and To Me the OP indicates that she intentionally flaunted her disobedience at graduation. I don’t think that’s cool.  The brave thing to do is to protest appropriately (not at others’ celebrations and expense) or attend elsewhere.  The honor code may not be honorable but the level of petty here seems, well, petty. IMO

There are so many kids who are well intentioned and make mistakes, and need life experience to grow and learn repentance because they were so sheltered in their parents homes that the world is overwhelming.  BYU is a lovely place for such young people.  I was one. I earned my stripes there, I use my degree, it’s a beautiful thing - but I have a son who has left and I’m glad.  I wish my oldest had not attended there.  He was wrong to do so IMO. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by MustardSeed

[rongo]

43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would it take for BYU to make its credits more easily transferable (asking because I honestly don’t know)? If it would involve compromising elements of its mission or values, I might find that objectionable. 

I think the religious credits aren't accepted at most universities, for one thing. But, if one had enough credits even without the religious credits, then I am unaware of any BYU classes that aren't accepted by other universities. Can anyone give any examples?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

The real struggle is that transferring BYU credits is very difficult and is often unsuccessful.

Is this true for anything but the religion credits given BYU has a pretty good reputation academicwise as far as I am aware?

I can see anatomy drawing classes in Art possibly if they don’t allow nude drawing and if true the anatomy prof edited out stuff (of all the idiotic moves), I could see issues for biology if it was common to avoid discussing human sexual biology…but that BYUI prof is surely the exception or we would have heard it before. (I can see perhaps editing stuff out for freshman because of being tired of juvenile jokes and they wanted to skip the snickering though my guess is it would simply create a different reason for that, but if they really did it to protect the ‘youth’…did they think the students wouldn’t be exposed in biology classes in high school at least?)

Maybe Social Sciences where church standards might affect how behaviour is discussed?

Edited April 28, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

@bluebell That's what I'm talking about -- finding practical ways to actually change rather than simply expressing outrage that a student at BYU flaunted the honor code and is proud of it. If it is as much of a problem as our outrage suggests, then we need to figure out how to enforce the honor code or help them find a different university.

I wish BYU would allow them to stay and simply switch to paying nonmember tuition and rules.  That allows the least disruption in terms of time and creates an atmosphere that encourages more honesty.  Plus if the University is worried about the impact of nonbelievers on student population (can’t be too worried since they admit some), being open about disbelief is going to have a very different impact than someone pretending to be a believer promoting any ideas contrary to church teachings.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Agreed.  I'm curious as to the transferability of BYU credits as compared to other comparable schools.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't have any experience transferring away from BYU, but from what I've heard from people close to me, transferring credits to BYU is a huge pain, and many don't transfer.  My friend had one class that was literally the same class.  It covered the same things (it was a sophomore level math class for elementary school teacher majors), the description of the class was almost word for word the same, and yet BYU refused to give her credit.  She had challenge it and jump through a ton of hoops and speak with a bunch of people and eventually, almost against their will, they gave her those three credits.

This was back in the late 90s, so things could have changed.

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would it take for BYU to make its credits more easily transferable (asking because I honestly don’t know)? If it would involve compromising elements of its mission or values, I might find that objectionable. 

I don't know why it would.  Maybe someone who knows more can speak to that.

It seems like a Chemistry I credit should be similar no matter where it is earned.  And if it's not, not sure how that would be an issue of the school's mission or values.  

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This week there was a kerruffle at BYU I - an anatomy professor had “edited out” genitalia in the diagrams identifying the proper medical names for the entire body and its parts.  This because the freshmen were too young to be exposed to such things.  

If people don’t take BYU seriously enough to accept transfer credits, maybe we can start with the basics.  Like knowing what a scrotum is and what it looks like when one is 19 years old and pre med. 

 

My 17 year old is in a public charter STEM school that feeds into Weber state and is taking anatomy this semester.  I got a reminder from the teacher on Monday that they were covered this kind of stuff (including reproduction) and that that would include pictures and using the actual names for body parts.  

If the juniors in high school can handle it, then it would be embarrassing if a freshman in college couldn't.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think the religious credits aren't accepted at most universities, for one thing. But, if one had enough credits even without the religious credits, then I am unaware of any BYU classes that aren't accepted by other universities. Can anyone give any examples?

That’s what I surmised. And that’s what I had in mind when I wondered about BYU compromising its mission or values if it were to make its credits more transferable. 

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wish BYU would allow them to stay and simply switch to paying nonmember tuition and rules.  That allows the least disruption in terms of time and creates an atmosphere that encourages more honesty.  Plus if the University is worried about the impact of nonbelievers on student population (can’t be too worried since they admit some), being open about disbelief is going to have a very different impact than someone pretending to be a believer promoting any ideas contrary to church teachings.

It’s not merely a matter of them having become unbelievers. It’s a matter of them having in effect apostatized and thereby broken covenants. I can see why the school (and it’s governing board of trustees) might have a problem with that. 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wish BYU would allow them to stay and simply switch to paying nonmember tuition and rules.  That allows the least disruption in terms of time and creates an atmosphere that encourages more honesty.

Nonmembers still have to obey the honor code though, don't they?

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Given the fact that non-member student tuition is about double that paid by Church members who enroll, the subsidy is quite sizable. 

I have read in the past that even the double tuition is significantly subsidized. Would be interesting to compare that to other schools.

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, pogi said:

If making it easier to transfer credits violates their mission and values, perhaps their mission and values need to be updated so as to not compromise them.   I don't see how it would compromise their mission or values though, unless they are centered in unrighteous dominion.  Lets not conflate BYU mission and values with absolute and unchangeable perfection and truth.  There may be room for improvement...unless you are opposed to eternal progression. 

Is requiring students to earn religious course credits for graduation “unrighteous dominion” in your view?

Edited April 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Nonmembers still have to obey the honor code though, don't they?

Yep.  If they want to drink and have premarital sex or same sex romantic/sexual relationships and don’t intend to restrain themselves, they would do better for themselves to transfer than to compromise their integrity and self image by deceit.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is requiring students to earn religious course credits for graduation “unrighteous dominion” in your view?

No.  Why do you ask? 

Obviously, we are not talking about non-transferable religious courses here.  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What do you mean by “credit”? A refund of the tithing paid? 
 

The income of a typical college student is so paltry, I’m guessing the refund amount would be nearly negligible, especially when weighed against the amount with which the student’s education was subsidized from the tithing funds of the Church. Given the fact that non-member student tuition is about double that paid by Church members who enroll, the subsidy is quite sizable. 

Sure, why not.  Everyone is complaining about the widows mite coming from the 100 billon plus slush fund that the person paid into as being unfair.  So give them their money back and they can spend it at another university.  It seems like a fair compromise.  If the students tithing over 5 years is paltry, then that is what they get.  But maybe it is enough to have the student more fairly decide what might be best for them and the university.  In my case, I always had well paying jobs in the summer and was able to pay for all my own college. The refund would be more than what non-members pay.

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't have any experience transferring away from BYU, but from what I've heard from people close to me, transferring credits to BYU is a huge pain, and many don't transfer. 

I wonder why that is.  Does BYU make it a "pain," or is it regional accreditation entities?  Other schools?

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My friend had one class that was literally the same class.  It covered the same things (it was a sophomore level math class for elementary school teacher majors), the description of the class was almost word for word the same, and yet BYU refused to give her credit.  She had challenge it and jump through a ton of hoops and speak with a bunch of people and eventually, almost against their will, they gave her those three credits.

This was back in the late 90s, so things could have changed.

I am hoping BYU is not setting up impediements for anyone. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Vanguard]

55 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This week there was a kerruffle at BYU I - an anatomy professor had “edited out” genitalia in the diagrams identifying the proper medical names for the entire body and its parts.  This because the freshmen were too young to be exposed to such things.  

If people don’t take BYU seriously enough to accept transfer credits, maybe we can start with the basics.  Like knowing what a scrotum is and what it looks like when one is 19 years old and pre med. 

 

I wish students who had **no intention** of following the basics - cheating, drinking, drugging and sexing would (for their own benefits and for the honorable reason of leaving space for those who buy in to the honor code to be able to attend) bow out.

As for the OP,  I don’t have respect for this person’s  M.O.   - I don’t care if she’s bisexual or not. It appears to me that she is safely thumbing her nose at the honor code, and To Me the OP indicates that she intentionally flaunted her disobedience at graduation. I don’t think that’s cool.  The brave thing to do is to protest appropriately (not at others’ celebrations and expense) or attend elsewhere.  The honor code may not be honorable but the level of petty here seems, well, petty. IMO

There are so many kids who are well intentioned and make mistakes, and need life experience to grow and learn repentance because they were so sheltered in their parents homes that the world is overwhelming.  BYU is a lovely place for such young people.  I was one. I earned my stripes there, I use my degree, it’s a beautiful thing - but I have a son who has left and I’m glad.  I wish my oldest had not attended there.  He was wrong to do so IMO. 

Nicely said and I agree entirely. I went to BYU and loved it back in the late 80s - early 90s. Wonderful education and social environment (though I hated the snow!). : )

Oh, and I can't believe you typed out s*****m on this thread! ;o In high school my buddies and I used to insult each other by calling one another a 'scrotal lesion' when we really wanted to get under their skin... ; ) Carry on. : )