Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you know who she was responding to?  The bolded part makes it sound like it's a specific person.

Thinking it was to someone in the FB group which is private. I'm terrible for posting it. Because maybe I wasn't supposed to since it's a private FB group. I've been making many dumb decisions lately. Do you mind deleting it?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Props to this woman.  Wow.

Thanks,

-Smac

Yes, but do u mind deleting, maybe I wasn't suppose to share since it's from a private FB group. 

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, but do u mind deleting, maybe I wasn't suppose to share since it's from a private FB group. 

Done.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Done.

👍

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thinking it was to someone in the FB group which is private. I'm terrible for posting it. Because maybe I wasn't supposed to since it's a private FB group. I've been making many dumb decisions lately. Do you mind deleting it?

It's been deleted.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

... My daughter is a champion burper. ...
 

I have a new respect for your family, Sir.  Congratulations on rearing your daughter right.

(I know from personal experience that if one attempts to take life too seriously all the time, surely, in short order, one will go ... quite mad. )

[california boy]

I was wondering if there is any way of knowing how many people have watched the series.  Couldn't find that answer, but I did come across rotten tomatoes review.  Looks like 85% score from critics and a 78% rating from the audience.  

[webbles]

13 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My limited understanding is that the triggering event was Brenda’s support of Dianna Lafferty leaving her husband and taking their kids to Florida. Of course, that’s not all of it, as certainly religious belief was tied up in it. 

Ron had been hating Brenda for longer than that.  Dan was teaching his brothers on how husbands and wives really should act.  And it was pretty bad.  These teachings most likely come from what they saw in their own parents (their dad beat their mom) and from a book that Dan discovered in a library.  The book is The Peacemaker (wiki page, online text).  He became extremely infatuated with that book.  He wrote about it in his journal and taught it to his brothers.  He also began to practice polygamy because of it.  His initial choice for his second wife was his oldest step-daughter but in the end choose a different woman.  Dan also tried to convince his other brothers to practice polygamy and Ron's wife was worried that he would actually do it.

Then, they (all the brothers) were introduced to the Prophet Onias (Bob Crossfield).  Bob joined the church when he was 21 and received his first prophecy roughly 10 years later.  He was excommunicated from the church because of his teachings (which included that the current leaders were wrong).  It was Bob that taught Ron, Dan, and the others that they could receive revelations.  Dan said that the idea of them receiving revelations was new and that Ron was the first to receive one.  Dan didn't receive his first revelation until after the murders.

Brenda wouldn't accept any of what was happening.  She prevented her husband from joining the group or from attending it.  She even would have friends tail him so that she knew where he was going (this is from one of her sisters).  She also talked to her sister-in-laws and tried to convince them to stop their husbands (and convinced Ron's wife to actually leave him).  She was well versed in the scriptures (she was a college grad and really smart) so when the men would "mansplain" religion to her, she could fight back and prove them wrong using the scriptures.  They didn't like her and they saw Allen as being a weak man since he couldn't control his own wife.

The day of the murder, they went to her house not to kill her but to actually get one of Allen's guns.  They had a bunch of guns and ammo but the two didn't match so they visited one of the other brothers who told them that the gun they were looking for was with Allen.  When they got there, Ron knocked and no one answered so they left.  It wasn't until Dan "felt" something and went back.  He then walked up to the door and knocked and Brenda answered.  He asked if he could borrow the gun and she told them she didn't know where it was but that they could come back later when Allen was home (she didn't like her brother-in-laws).  He forced himself in and that is when they started fighting.

I don't think Ron actually ever planned to murder Brenda.  The revelation was for a someone else to do the act and that person disappeared shortly after the revelation was received.  Even in the actual act, he didn't enter the house until well after Brenda had been beaten.  After he entered, he tried to strangle her and didn't have the courage to do it.  Dan's the one that did everything.  And Dan's the one that was always fanatical about things (see his Sherrif election, his "free citizen" thing, etc).

 

I think the idea that religious upbringing had something to do with the murder is similar to the argument that violent video games increases violence.  Lots of people believe the later and we even have tried to pass laws based on that belief.  But all the studies that have been done have found little to no relationship between the two.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, webbles said:

Ron had been hating Brenda for longer than that.  Dan was teaching his brothers on how husbands and wives really should act.  And it was pretty bad.  These teachings most likely come from what they saw in their own parents (their dad beat their mom) and from a book that Dan discovered in a library.  The book is The Peacemaker (wiki page, online text).  He became extremely infatuated with that book.  He wrote about it in his journal and taught it to his brothers.  He also began to practice polygamy because of it.  His initial choice for his second wife was his oldest step-daughter but in the end choose a different woman.  Dan also tried to convince his other brothers to practice polygamy and Ron's wife was worried that he would actually do it.

Then, they (all the brothers) were introduced to the Prophet Onias (Bob Crossfield).  Bob joined the church when he was 21 and received his first prophecy roughly 10 years later.  He was excommunicated from the church because of his teachings (which included that the current leaders were wrong).  It was Bob that taught Ron, Dan, and the others that they could receive revelations.  Dan said that the idea of them receiving revelations was new and that Ron was the first to receive one.  Dan didn't receive his first revelation until after the murders.

Brenda wouldn't accept any of what was happening.  She prevented her husband from joining the group or from attending it.  She even would have friends tail him so that she knew where he was going (this is from one of her sisters).  She also talked to her sister-in-laws and tried to convince them to stop their husbands (and convinced Ron's wife to actually leave him).  She was well versed in the scriptures (she was a college grad and really smart) so when the men would "mansplain" religion to her, she could fight back and prove them wrong using the scriptures.  They didn't like her and they saw Allen as being a weak man since he couldn't control his own wife.

The day of the murder, they went to her house not to kill her but to actually get one of Allen's guns.  They had a bunch of guns and ammo but the two didn't match so they visited one of the other brothers who told them that the gun they were looking for was with Allen.  When they got there, Ron knocked and no one answered so they left.  It wasn't until Dan "felt" something and went back.  He then walked up to the door and knocked and Brenda answered.  He asked if he could borrow the gun and she told them she didn't know where it was but that they could come back later when Allen was home (she didn't like her brother-in-laws).  He forced himself in and that is when they started fighting.

I don't think Ron actually ever planned to murder Brenda.  The revelation was for a someone else to do the act and that person disappeared shortly after the revelation was received.  Even in the actual act, he didn't enter the house until well after Brenda had been beaten.  After he entered, he tried to strangle her and didn't have the courage to do it.  Dan's the one that did everything.  And Dan's the one that was always fanatical about things (see his Sherrif election, his "free citizen" thing, etc).

 

I think the idea that religious upbringing had something to do with the murder is similar to the argument that violent video games increases violence.  Lots of people believe the later and we even have tried to pass laws based on that belief.  But all the studies that have been done have found little to no relationship between the two.

Do you mind my sharing this? Also, you are always forthright, what do you think of the book "The Peacemaker"? Just finished watching the 4th episode. 

[sunstoned]

According to this Newsweek article, Dustin Lance Black had access to Brenda Lafferty's journals, and that he was inspired by them:

 

Quote

"Particularly once I got to know her family, and her family trusted me with her journals, entrusted me with the letters she wrote to her sister in this time. I felt very close to Brenda, very inspired by Brenda and so yeah, she is absolutely more than her death.

https://www.newsweek.com/under-banner-heaven-interview-brenda-wright-lafferty-murder-dustin-lance-black-1701326

[jkwilliams]

I’m about 10 minutes into episode 4, which is almost unwatchable. Ron gets denied a business loan because his brother’s political activities harm the reputation of the church? Seriously? Writing a letter to the prophet is like writing to Heavenly Father? And Lafferty, senior, swinging his cane and telling a woman, “Get hence, serpent!” is unintentionally hilarious.

This really is disappointing, as it could have been an interesting look at the overlap of extremist politics and religion, but instead it’s a bad TV movie written in ludicrous caricatures. 

[Kenngo1969]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thinking it was to someone in the FB group which is private. I'm terrible for posting it. Because maybe I wasn't supposed to since it's a private FB group. I've been making many dumb decisions lately. Do you mind deleting it?

People are not terrible.  They may do terrible things (and even then, often, they may act out of, e.g., fear or [as, perhaps, you did] out of ignorance rather than out of malice), but they are not terrible: Even the person who has done the worst thing you can think of, still, is a child of God.  (Granted, God's ability to save or to exalt that child may be limited because the child does not want to be saved or exalted, but that doesn't change the fact that the child is a child of God.)

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

People are not terrible.  They may do terrible things (and even then, often, they may act out of, e.g., fear or [as, perhaps, you did] out of ignorance rather than out of malice), but they are not terrible: Even the person who has done the worst thing you can think of, still, is a child of God.  (Granted, God's ability to save or to exalt that child may be limited because the child does not want to be saved or exalted, but that doesn't change the fact that the child is a child of God.)

Thinking I need to take the personality test, someone needs to make a topic, it would really blow our minds I bet. Have you heard of it? It would be fun if members on this board compared notes, and I'll bet it'll help us get each other, haha! 

This will give you an idea of my personality, before even taking the test, my mom told me a funny story of when a child I, my mom and the neighbor lady were walking on the sidewalk when the neighbor tripped and fell down. Well, my mom said I thought I'd made her fall! I felt bad about it and didn't have anything to do with it. 

So here's the test and I'm going to get to the bottom of it. https://www.truity.com/test/enneagram-personality-test 

[Amulek]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is it like viewing a train wreck: can’t avert your eyes?

No, that would be something more like Sister Wives.

I would say Banner is more like watching The Miracle of Life during my HS freshman biology class, where our color blind teacher had messed with the TV and the baby came out looking like a gremlin.

There's an academic part of me that is interested in the subject matter, but I'm really having a hard time getting past what's going on with the presentation.

 

[CA Steve]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m about 10 minutes into episode 4, which is almost unwatchable. Ron gets denied a business loan because his brother’s political activities harm the reputation of the church? Seriously? Writing a letter to the prophet is like writing to Heavenly Father? And Lafferty, senior, swinging his cane and telling a woman, “Get hence, serpent!” is unintentionally hilarious.

This really is disappointing, as it could have been an interesting look at the overlap of extremist politics and religion, but instead it’s a bad TV movie written in ludicrous caricatures. 

I gave up after the second episode. Sounds like it hasn't improved. I have been binge watching "Better Call Saul" lately and the writing there is fantastic, though I imagine there are a lot of lawyers and drug dealers out there complaining about how they are being misrepresented. 😉

Edited May 13, 2022 by CA Steve

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m about 10 minutes into episode 4, which is almost unwatchable. Ron gets denied a business loan because his brother’s political activities harm the reputation of the church? Seriously? Writing a letter to the prophet is like writing to Heavenly Father? And Lafferty, senior, swinging his cane and telling a woman, “Get hence, serpent!” is unintentionally hilarious.

This really is disappointing, as it could have been an interesting look at the overlap of extremist politics and religion, but instead it’s a bad TV movie written in ludicrous caricatures. 

It has been pretty bad.

At some point during the episode I thought to myself, maybe I should create an Anachronism Bingo card - that might help me get through the remaining episodes, but I quickly abandoned the idea once I realized how quickly it would get filled up each week.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

I’ve not watched any of it (nor do I intend to) but the image I’m getting from the descriptions is like a fifth grader drawing an extremely grotesque caricature of a schoolteacher he hates and then telling his classmates, “It’s her fault because she’s such a witch.” 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve not watched any of it (nor do I intend to) but the image I’m getting from the descriptions is like a fifth grader drawing an extremely grotesque caricature of a schoolteacher he hates and then telling his classmates, “It’s her fault because she’s such a witch.” 

It would be a much better program if that were the case. It’s just poor writing that sinks it. 

[ttribe]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m about 10 minutes into episode 4, which is almost unwatchable. Ron gets denied a business loan because his brother’s political activities harm the reputation of the church? Seriously? Writing a letter to the prophet is like writing to Heavenly Father? And Lafferty, senior, swinging his cane and telling a woman, “Get hence, serpent!” is unintentionally hilarious.

This really is disappointing, as it could have been an interesting look at the overlap of extremist politics and religion, but instead it’s a bad TV movie written in ludicrous caricatures. 

I share your disappointment, and E4 hit several new lows. This could have been an interesting and compelling drama set in Mormon culture. It is not. It is bad. It is very bad.

The Good:

- Andrew Garfield's performance is quite good and I think, for the most part, he captures the essence of a believer who is really trying do the right thing all the time, even when it's painful.

- The aesthetic; yep, that's pretty much what the early 80s looked like.

- Brenda Lafferty seems nice.

- Chloe Pirre does a good Scottish accent...which makes sense, since she's Scottish.

The Bad:

- The dialog. It is awful.

- Andrew Garfield saying "Thank Heavenly Father" as a replacement for the expression "Thank God." Seriously? Who thought that was a good idea?

- The characterization of Allen Lafferty is a terrible disservice.

- The failure to discuss (so far) that at least Ron and Dan Lafferty had already been excommunicated by the Church for their antics.

- The Stake President trying to strong-arm Det. Pyre into releasing Allan, Robin and Sam into his custody. Yeah, right.

- The Relief Society President confronting the Pyres outside Church because of the delay in the twins' baptisms and preaching at Sis. Pyre like her husband wasn't even there. It was just...bizarre.

- The Church (the "Prophet's Office") interfering in Ron Lafferty getting a loan for his business because his last name is Lafferty. What the...?

- Inserting discussions of Church history into completely unrelated and unlikely moments. Pretty ham-fisted attempts to tie the Laffertys' thinking to the past.

- Ron's wife divorced him over polygamy and took off with their kids in real life; are you ever going to get there in this show?

- Sam Lafferty wasn't a real brother and is off the scales crazy. He adds nothing to this show. Nor did the whole standoff at the cabin thing; never happened and adds nothing that couldn't have been done more subtly.

- Pretty much everything else.

Edited May 13, 2022 by ttribe

[CA Steve]

What is really sad is that the real story is riviting stuff. It didn't need to be changed. Take that cast and production and show what actually happened and it's a 10.  Christopher Hyerdahl, who plays the Lafferty's father, is creepy without having to say a word. What a waste.

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I share your disappointment, and E4 hit several new lows. This could have been an interesting and compelling drama set in Mormon culture. It is not. It is bad. It is very bad.

The Good:

- Andrew Garfield's performance is quite good and I think, for the most part, he captures the essence of a believer who is really trying do the right thing all the time, even when it's painful.

- The aesthetic; yep, that's pretty much what the early 80s looked like.

- Brenda Lafferty seems nice.

- Chloe Pirre does a good Scottish accent...which makes sense, since she's Scottish.

The Bad:

- The dialog. It is awful.

- Andrew Garfield saying "Thank Heavenly Father" as a replacement for the expression "Thank God." Seriously? Who thought that was a good idea?

- The characterization of Allen Lafferty is a terrible disservice.

- The failure to discuss (so far) that at least Ron and Dan Lafferty had already been excommunicated by the Church for their antics.

- The Stake President trying to strong-arm Det. Pyre into releasing Allan, Robin and Sam into his custody. Yeah, right.

- The Relief Society President confronting the Pyres outside Church because of the delay in the twins' baptisms and preaching at Sis. Pyre like her husband wasn't even there. It was just...bizarre.

- The Church (the "Prophet's Office") interfering in Ron Lafferty getting a loan for his business because his last name is Lafferty. What the...?

- Inserting discussions of Church history into completely unrelated and unlikely moments. Pretty ham-fisted attempts to tie the Laffertys' thinking to the past.

- Ron's wife divorced him over polygamy and took off with their kids in real life; are you ever going to get there in this show?

- Sam Lafferty wasn't a real brother and is off the scales crazy. He adds nothing to this show. Nor did the whole standoff at the cabin thing; never happened and adds nothing that couldn't have been done more subtly.

- Pretty much everything else.

Perfect description!

[webbles]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Do you mind my sharing this? Also, you are always forthright, what do you think of the book "The Peacemaker"? Just finished watching the 4th episode. 

I don't mind you sharing it.  Most of what I wrote is from the book Under the Banner of Heaven.  It is sounding like the show isn't using anything from the book except for the historical parts, which is disappointing since I think that is some of the weaker parts of the book.  Reading about the Laffertys, about Brenda, about their relationship has been interesting.  She was an amazing woman and it is really sad that Dan killed her.

I haven't actually read the entirety of The Peacemaker.  I started it but just didn't feel the need to keep going with it.

[webbles]

8 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m about 10 minutes into episode 4, which is almost unwatchable. Ron gets denied a business loan because his brother’s political activities harm the reputation of the church? Seriously? Writing a letter to the prophet is like writing to Heavenly Father? And Lafferty, senior, swinging his cane and telling a woman, “Get hence, serpent!” is unintentionally hilarious.

This really is disappointing, as it could have been an interesting look at the overlap of extremist politics and religion, but instead it’s a bad TV movie written in ludicrous caricatures. 

What's the details behind the business loan?  Does it name the business or what he was doing?  A little before his wife divorced him, he had become like Dan, where the normal government rules no longer apply and so I'm not sure if he would have cared about business loans at that time.

The quote "Get hence, serpent" was, according to Dan, something that Lafferty Sr actually said to him (not a woman).  While the senior Laffertys were on their mission, Dan and a younger brother took over his chiropractor shop.  Dan was beginning to not accept the government and so he stopped paying the taxes on the shop.  Lafferty Sr had to end the mission short to come home and put things back into order.  He argued with Dan (all this is from the book and it appears to come from Dan) and tried to correct him.  At the end, it sounds like Lafferty Sr attempted an exorcist of Dan and said those words.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

What's the details behind the business loan?  Does it name the business or what he was doing?  A little before his wife divorced him, he had become like Dan, where the normal government rules no longer apply and so I'm not sure if he would have cared about business loans at that time.

In the show, it was just his normal construction business for which he was trying to get additional loan funding for some new project(s).

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

What's the details behind the business loan?  Does it name the business or what he was doing?  A little before his wife divorced him, he had become like Dan, where the normal government rules no longer apply and so I'm not sure if he would have cared about business loans at that time.

The quote "Get hence, serpent" was, according to Dan, something that Lafferty Sr actually said to him (not a woman).  While the senior Laffertys were on their mission, Dan and a younger brother took over his chiropractor shop.  Dan was beginning to not accept the government and so he stopped paying the taxes on the shop.  Lafferty Sr had to end the mission short to come home and put things back into order.  He argued with Dan (all this is from the book and it appears to come from Dan) and tried to correct him.  At the end, it sounds like Lafferty Sr attempted an exorcist of Dan and said those words.

According to the script, his construction business was failing, and the bank refused to approve the loan because his brother Dan was making the church look bad. Does stuff like this actually happen? Not in my experience.