Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Okay.

Okay.

 

I'm reminded of the original Church Public Affairs Department response to the book:

So I wonder @sunstoned and @jkwilliams: Do you believe, as Krakauer obviously wants us to, the existence of that particular pre-1990's bit of the ceremony, or the other violent or tragic bits of LDS history, motivates horrible murders?   What percentage of LDS folks would you guess are at an increased risk of violent or murderous behavior due to such a selective slicing of our history?  From where I'm standing, occasionally, unhinged people end up doing horrible things.  And if the Lafferty boys hadn't been LDS, or hadn't known about those particular bits of LDS history, something else would have done just as well.   But your opinion may differ, so I'm interested.

 

Example: The FedEx employee that killed 9 people a year ago:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_FedEx_shooting

"It's true" - Applejack

That’s a lot of logical leaping from an obvious connection. Saying the method was deliberate is not saying Mormons are inherently prone to violence. 

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, Rivers said:

Watched the first two episodes of the show. It’s ok.
 

 The dialogue is a bit clunky.  A lot of the mormon jargon feels forced and awkward.   

Andrew Garfield is fine in the role.  The actress playing Brenda is great.  
 

My biggest problem is that it feels too reminiscent of September Dawn.  

After episode 1 I thought the dialogues from the believing Mormons to be stilted and more pious than anything in my experience.  Did not seem realistic to me.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Here is another review and take and emphasizes better what I think I and others have been saying.  I will just bold items I find relevant to that. 

 

 

https://religiondispatches.org/what-most-critics-missed-about-dustin-lance-blacks-under-the-banner-of-heaven-adaptation/

Sounds like Pres. Nelson was on to something by wanting us to stop using Mormon and Mormonism to describe the members and theology/doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The Lafferty dad is played by a great ‘if you want cool, creepy, I am your guy’ actor.  He is tall and gaunt and has the perfect black and white horror film voice, but he played a vampire alien on Stargate:  Atlantis and that is all I can visualize when I hear him.  No wonder the elderly neighbour looks like he has had the life sucked out of him.

Yea he as a creepy guy in the series Hell on Wheels. A religious fanatic that takes up somehow with a Mormon pioneer family and ends up murdering them and somehow then becomes a Mormon and has an in with Brigham Young.  Plays a good creeper.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Heyerdahl

https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Swede&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLSz9U3SElJz8i1VAKzyytLcjNStGSyk630S8qAKL6gKD-9KDHXKjkjsSgxuSS1qHgRK2dIRqpCcHlqSioAN8n2m0QAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIrb7nxbn3AhXWkokEHeBkBKYQ9OUBegQIMxAF&biw=1920&bih=1009&dpr=1

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

After episode 1 I thought the dialogues from the believing Mormons to be stilted and more pious than anything in my experience.  Did not seem realistic to me.

I did too, but I also remember saying a lot of the same things in my younger days. 

[Tacenda]

I was surprised to see a YouTube of Allen Lafferty and his wife testifying about the temple just now. Can't link yet, maybe later. 

I think he should have been convicted of something for not protecting Brenda better knowing his brothers were talking about her "removal".

Surprised he's a member of faith after watching him say during the interrogation that there's alot that the detective didn't know about the history of the church, just seemed he was angry about it. But I'm sure later episodes will explain.

Only watched the first part of episode one. On vacation with my family and grandkids, and didn't want to watch with them. 

[BlueDreams]

13 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

We lived in Houston, and religion rarely came up. My kids did have some experiences being treated badly when it came out that they were LDS. But that wasn’t the norm. We had a pretty diverse neighborhood. 

Makes more sense. We lived in a suburban city north of Dallas that was likely first primarily baptist but was "diversifying" as the population grew, largely in terms of christian denominations (namely catholics and non denom). When we first moved in, there was a petition going around to allow alcohol sales within city limits, to give an idea of what the local politics looked liked and converged with religion. I think it's continued to change in demos, in terms of both religious affiliation and a little racially. In general, areas that are more urban and diverse seem to have a similar effect with what you describe. The smaller and less diverse the community the more likely you are to find more insular quarks and/or problems.

The town I live in now is technically "small" but is also nearer more dense populations than rural outskirts of UT county.  

 

With luv,

BD

 

[california boy]

14 hours ago, CA Steve said:

TBH I think the less attention paid to this train wreck the better. Let the non LDS reviews kill it. 

Fridays is when a lot of talk show hosts have a movie critic come on the radio and talk about the movies that are coming to the theater, and now also the movies that are being shown on TV.  I heard two reviews today on this movie.  Both critics described the series as being very well done and also very dark.  Both gave two thumbs up.  Both are well known film critics.  And both of them have already seen all of the episodes.  One said that this is not a series you want to binge watch because it is pretty dark.  

I was kinda surprised, because I think the dialogue in the first episode was a bit over the top.  It seemed better in the second episode.  I do see a lot of truth in how radical Mormons are portrayed in this series. Especially during the time that the events took place. 

[Tacenda]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Thanks for posting that. I actually think the show is much fairer to the church (and broader Mormonism) than the OP’s assertion of a latter-day Thomas Sharp. I just can’t get past the poor writing. It’s a shame. 

Especially given that it's been in the works for so many years and Ron Howard was involved with it. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

was kinda surprised, because I think the dialogue in the first episode was a bit over the top.  It seemed better in the second episode.  I do see a lot of truth in how radical Mormons are portrayed in this series. Especially during the time that the events took place. 

There are different writers for the later episodes.  Maybe that helps. 

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are different writers for the later episodes.  Maybe that helps. 

I didn't know that. Are you saying that Dustin Lance Black only wrote the screenplay for the first episode?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, california boy said:

I didn't know that. Are you saying that Dustin Lance Black only wrote the screenplay for the first episode?

According to wiki, iirc he wrote the first two, shared the third and three more were written by others, all that is listed so far. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

As to whether or not inspiration came from the endowment, according to Dan Lafferty it was scriptural. 
 

https://www.deseret.com/2004/7/27/19841799/ron-lafferty-dan-lafferty-murders-utah-1984-case-still-haunts?

Quote

Dan said he and his brother were led by God to beat Brenda unconscious, wrap a vacuum cord around her neck until she went limp, and then slit her throat. She was 24.

"I held Brenda's hair and did it pretty much the way they did it in the scriptures," he says proudly. "Then I walked in Erica's room. I talked to her for a minute, I said, 'I'm not sure why I'm supposed to do this, but I guess God wants you home.' "

He then looked away as he slit the 15-month-old baby's throat.

"I like to think she didn't suffer," he says. "It probably should draw more sympathy than it does. But I don't let it."

However, if I understand correctly, while Dan claims both murders, it is believed Ron Lafferty killed Brenda.  Is this correct?

Does anyone have a direct quote from RL?  Preferably from a documented interview or trial transcript. 
 

And if you have a link to the trial transcripts, please share. 

[CA Steve]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

Fridays is when a lot of talk show hosts have a movie critic come on the radio and talk about the movies that are coming to the theater, and now also the movies that are being shown on TV.  I heard two reviews today on this movie.  Both critics described the series as being very well done and also very dark.  Both gave two thumbs up.  Both are well known film critics.  And both of them have already seen all of the episodes.  One said that this is not a series you want to binge watch because it is pretty dark.  

I was kinda surprised, because I think the dialogue in the first episode was a bit over the top.  It seemed better in the second episode.  I do see a lot of truth in how radical Mormons are portrayed in this series. Especially during the time that the events took place. 

Over the years I have discovered that if I like a series, it is very likely to be cancelled and quite often, the more I dislike one the longer it lasts.

I would guess that being Mormon probably plays into me disliking it. A non member would probably not see how off target the LDS dialogue is written. They are clearly playing to a larger audience and emphasizing the oddness both in the fundamentalist and mainstream. The scene where Jeb comes crashing back into the interrogation room and demands to know if Allen has abandoned his covenants is not believable. Plus I really have a hard time with someone in cuffs in an interrogation room but no lawyer.  Are we supposed to believe they spent all that time talking to him without a lawyer present? Miranda was almost 20 years old when this took place.

[Tacenda]

27 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Over the years I have discovered that if I like a series, it is very likely to be cancelled and quite often, the more I dislike one the longer it lasts.

I would guess that being Mormon probably plays into me disliking it. A non member would probably not see how off target the LDS dialogue is written. They are clearly playing to a larger audience and emphasizing the oddness both in the fundamentalist and mainstream. The scene where Jeb comes crashing back into the interrogation room and demands to know if Allen has abandoned his covenants is not believable. Plus I really have a hard time with someone in cuffs in an interrogation room but no lawyer.  Are we supposed to believe they spent all that time talking to him without a lawyer present? Miranda was almost 20 years old when this took place.

I think that the context of when this occurred might be in play, him doing that wouldn't fly in this day and age but back in those days, the 80's in Utah county it could have been not too far fetched. 

Also, the covenants changed throughout the years or the wording. The teachings are less stringent, probably not the right word. Like has been said in discussion on this board by a few people, the church is more mainstream than ever, and not as peculiar.  

[webbles]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

As to whether or not inspiration came from the endowment, according to Dan Lafferty it was scriptural. 
 

https://www.deseret.com/2004/7/27/19841799/ron-lafferty-dan-lafferty-murders-utah-1984-case-still-haunts?

However, if I understand correctly, while Dan claims both murders, it is believed Ron Lafferty killed Brenda.  Is this correct?

Does anyone have a direct quote from RL?  Preferably from a documented interview or trial transcript. 
 

And if you have a link to the trial transcripts, please share. 

Dan killed both of them.  Ron beat and strangled Brenda.  Ron received the revelations.  There are at least two that are thought to to be linked, a "removal" one and a "consecrated instrument" one.  The former doesn't describe how the "removals" should happen and the later doesn't describe what the "instrument" is for but the trials talked about both of them.  I linked to the newspapers that were covering the trial in my post in the other thread.

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The scene where Jeb comes crashing back into the interrogation room and demands to know if Allen has abandoned his covenants is not believable.

It was such a 180 from his previous attitude.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

think that the context of when this occurred might be in play, him doing that wouldn't fly in this day and age but back in those days, the 80's in Utah county it could have been not too far fetched. 

I don’t buy it.  Utah Valley was not that far behind the times.  There was plenty of crime.  We were walking in groups and getting escorted by kids in our branches because rapists were coming to BYU campus starting at least as early as ‘76.  There were a handful of child abductions in the early 80’s including my BYU boss’ little girl (found 6 weeks later in California). The detective in charge told her predators from all over came to Utah Valley because of its reputation for lots of innocent children.  Made me absolutely sick and obsessive about keeping an eye on my own child who,was born shortly after and any kids I saw playing off by themselves.  [In the series, it really bugs me as unlikely…especially  with Taba, who is from Vegas and highly experienced in dealing with no ciders.  He would know that would threatened an investigation.  They should have provided a reason why no lawyer as it just makes them look incompetent to me.]

And Utah Valley had plenty of lawyers because of the presence of BYU Law School.  We used to joke about it.  I would not be surprised if many Utah police departments had lawyers floating around them, eager for work.  If so, they would learn quickly not to be careless.

Now he might have waved his right…?  The family was antigovernment, maybe they had a thing about lawyers.  But a gruesome double murder…I might go back and read the appeal transcript to see if it said anything about that, though Allen wasn’t charged with anything as far as I know, even though some thought he should have because he was aware of the revelations for two months but said nothing to his wife.

Added:  another thing bugging me was here was a horrific double murder involving allegedly a very prominent family and they weren’t considering contacting their chief. Now maybe he was out in the boonies in Yellowstone, but he would have left his itinerary for emergencies and they could have asked rangers to go looking for him…but to talk that they wanted it all tidied up before the chief got involved…if I was the chief I’d be threatening them with termination because his job was on the line as soon as those bodies where discovered, he would have been held responsible for any missteps, present or not.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[katherine the great]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Especially given that it's been in the works for so many years and Ron Howard was involved with it. 

Ron Howard is an executive producer which = money. They are very rarely ever involved in actual production. 

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t buy it.  Utah Valley was not that far behind the times.  There was plenty of crime.  We were walking in groups and getting escorted by kids in our branches because rapists were coming to BYU campus starting at least as early as ‘76.  There were a handful of child abductions in the early 80’s including my BYU boss’ little girl (found 6 weeks later in California).  [In the series, it really bugs me as unlikely…especially  with Taba, who is from Vegas and highly experienced in dealing with no ciders.  He would know that would threatened an investigation.  They should have provided a reason why no lawyer as it just makes them look incompetent to me.]

And Utah Valley had plenty of lawyers because of the presence of BYU Law School.  We used to joke about it.  I would not be surprised if many Utah police departments had lawyers floating around them, eager for work.  If so, they would learn quickly not to be careless.

Now he might have waved his right…?  The family was antigovernment, maybe they had a thing about lawyers.  But a gruesome double murder…I might go back and read the appeal transcript to see if it said anything about that, though Allen wasn’t charged with anything as far as I know, even though some thought he should have because he was aware of the revelations for two months but said nothing to his wife.

I meant their interactions being over the top and not realistic according to CA Steve's post. I disagree, I think they would have talked like that in the early 80's.

Why just today I saw a message from a RS president to someone who is starting to question the church and had not attended for two weeks, this c/p was on a FB group that I belong to.

The RS shared a scripture in the note. I've seen this happen over and over in wards that have members that quit attending because of faith issues. Nothing different than when the detective quickly changed his tune and spouted the D&C scripture when Allen showed that he was wearing regular underwear and what he said about the church.

Here's a c/p of the note I'm referring to above. And is very common, in the exmo or disbelieving members who quit attending that post c/p's of what members say, this is all the time. This one popped up today.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, how long have you lived in Utah county if you don't mind me asking?

I was at BYU from 76 to 85 (lived in Provo and Orem). before we left for Kansas. Lived there for 4 months in 71 due to mom’s health.  Have lived in Mapleton since 2003.

Husband born and bred there, lived on the border of Provo and Orem till we got married except for two years in South America and one summer picking pineapple in Hawaii (buy the canned rings and cut them up if needed as highest quality, the crushed bits are the dregs  ).

Quote

there were families with BoM names of each of their children sometimes. 

Lol, we have lots of those.  Thankfully most of them are decent sounding.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Nothing different than when the detective quickly changed his tune and spouted the D&C scripture

He didn’t just spout scripture, he went from quiet, deliberate, and cautious, to screaming at Allen and demanding he be in front of a firing squad…maybe by morning?  It was bizarre, almost a complete loss of control given how uptight the guy is.

Your RS Pres is trying to persuade with love, she isn’t having a meltdown, yelling in anyone’s face.  There is no anger, no telling them they are scum.  I am not saying discomfort of someone having a loss of faith or using scripture to engage is bizarre, I am talking about the viciousness, loss of control of it being contrary to the rest of the portrayal of Pyre.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

He didn’t just spout scripture, he went from quiet, deliberate, and cautious, to screaming at Allen and demanding he be in front of a firing squad…maybe by morning?  It was bizarre, almost a complete loss of control given how uptight the guy is.

Your RS Pres is trying to persuade with love, she isn’t having a meltdown, yelling in anyone’s face.  I am not saying discomfort of someone having a loss of faith is bizarre, I am talking about the viciousness, loss of control of it being contrary to the rest of the portrayal of Pyre.

It wasn't my RS president, just a post in a private FB group. I've read stories from members that quit belief that shared how their families treated them just like Pyre reacted. Not uncommon at all.

I read a story a few years ago that said their family were almost demonic to them when they said something negative or said they learned something about the church that was bad. Their loved one went ballistic on them. You aren't reading the stories that I've read or maybe I'm wrong about that. But I could definitely spend some time and go back and copy them and share if you don't believe it happens. Maybe others in my boat can back me up that members can have that reaction to their loved ones that quit belief.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've read stories from members that quit belief that shared how their families treated them just like Pyre reacted. Not uncommon at all.

If they showed Pyre having meltdowns about other stuff, I might buy it….but it is too making the character fit the plot rather than creating a full, realistic human being.  I am not protesting that a Saint might react that way…I have seen the autobiographies as well, I am not arguing it never happens.

I am posting that it is random for Pyre.  I am critiquing Black’s choice of character development with this one, not his choices to portray Mormon culture.  I have watched way more than my fair share of crime drama over the years.  This one feels very artificial to me.  Wondering if Black has done anything in the genre before.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Husband born and bred there, lived on the border of Provo and Orem

Oh my gosh!  I had no idea! Did you have to climb the wall daily?

So scary!