Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

New Church Policy?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Thank heavens there is no comparison in the light of Christ inviting everyone into one set of covenants for all God's children. The Gift of the Holy Ghost does amazing things for people in their various troubles.

I don’t consider being gay a “trouble” but go ahead and continue to speak to me as if I’m not aware of the gift of the Holy Ghost, the light of Christ or a myriad of other doctrinal points after being an active, adult member of the church for 30 years. 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

I don’t consider being gay a “trouble” but go ahead and continue to speak to me as if I’m not aware of the gift of the Holy Ghost, the light of Christ or a myriad of other doctrinal points after being an active, adult member of the church for 30 years. 

I will try to diffuse this seemingly defensive comment as follows: I said "people in their various troubles."

What have you observed to be the troubles that gay people suffer vis-à-vis this discussion in which you chose to participate?

Will not the Holy Ghost help them with their troubles as much as He has helped you in yours?

Sexual orientation is not a trouble per se, but many people do have trouble finding and staying on the covenant path because of how they manage and act upon their sexuality and sex.

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I will try to diffuse this seemingly defensive comment as follows: I said "people in their various troubles."

What have you observed to be the troubles that gay people suffer vis-à-vis this discussion in which you chose to participate?

Will not the Holy Ghost help them with their troubles as much as He has helped you in yours?

Sexual orientation is not a trouble per se, but many people do have trouble finding and staying on the covenant path because of how they manage and act upon their sexuality and sex.

Hmm, since you brought “trouble” into it, I’ll let you explain their “troubles.”

Link to comment
4 hours ago, rongo said:

Serious question I wonder about: what did Elder Bednar mean when he said that there are no homosexual Church members? Did he ever clarify or explain?

I hope he meant there is no need for any label beside Brother and Sister, generally speaking.  We don’t need to know identities of any kind to love and serve each other. 

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Hmm, since you brought “trouble” into it, I’ll let you explain their “troubles.”

This is a 17-page thread with many posts explaining the troubles gay individuals may face in managing and acting upon matters of sexuality and sex along their covenant path. Is mine the only post you've read or engaged in? In any case, I'll refer you to those.

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is a 17-page thread with many posts explaining the troubles gay individuals may face in managing and acting upon matters of sexuality and sex along their covenant path. Is mine the only post you've read or engaged in? In any case, I'll refer you to those.

You engaged with me first, but I don’t think you and I are going to find much common ground on this subject. Peace

Link to comment
4 hours ago, longview said:

It should be obvious that homosexuals and trans cannot have it both ways:  [1] believe in and sustain the revelations contained in the Proclamation on the Family;  [2] engage in flirtatious or romantic behaviors with same sex people;  [3] trans modifying/mutilating/drugging their bodies.

I only do 2 out of the 3 so I guess I am good.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There was this other guy who wanted to guarantee nobody ever broke the rules and everyone made it to heaven.

Oddly enough God had an issue with his methodology.  Something to do with agency.

Don’t remind me. I spent eons developing that brilliant plan and then offer Lucifer the VP slot if he would use his oratorical skills to present it and that ******* presented it as his own and didn’t even mention me. Double crossing piece of garbage. I am the only spirit that chose Christ’s plan primarily out of spite.

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Duncan said:
3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This reductio ad absurdum approach isn't doing you any favors.
There is zero comparison between expressions of brotherly love and homosexual flirting.

tell that to Longview

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

nope, you are blurring the lines and normal people are calling you out on it. It's ridiculous how you and others manipulate the LoC into something it was never meant to be and I am SO glad I wasn't ever taught by you. As I said before if you get too close to the fire you burn but if you move too far away you freeze to death and I wonder how you like breakfast with the polar bears?

Praise God above I am NOT going to church tomorrow because of you and Smac1797 because I might accidentally see a woman. I am so,so done with ilk like you people

Feels like there is so much heat and little understanding.  I think that the link @CV75 just posted will do wonderfully in clarifying what we are talking about.  He only put in 3 paragraphs of Elder Bednar's talk in Chile but I am going to post the entire transcription that someone made from the comment section (I have bolded in red some parts):

Quote

 

Full English Transcription —

This is a question from Chile: (Our translation has to be perfecto, right?) “How can homosexual members of the church live and remain steadfast in the gospel?”

First I want to change the question. There are no homosexual members of the church. We are not defined by sexual attraction. We are not defined by sexual behavior. We are sons and daughters of God, and all of us have different challenges in the flesh.

There are many different types of challenges. Would it be a challenge to be very beautiful or very handsome, and in the world in which we live, never develop deep character because we’re able to open doors and have success just because of our physical appearance and we become shallow and superficial in many aspects of our lives?

Some people have physical limitations. They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.

Through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we are blessed with moral agency. Agency is the capacity to act, and not simply be acted upon.

This is a bottle of water. It’s an object. It has no capacity to act. It is an object that can only be acted upon. So this object moves if I cause it to move, or if some other force causes it to move. (My wife is afraid I’m going to hit her with the bottle of water. Haha.)

You and I are not objects. We are agents blessed with agency because of the atonement of Christ. And with that agency, we are to act and not be acted upon. That agency gives us the capacity to determine how we will respond to the variety of challenges we experience in the flesh.

So, you choose, you act in accordance with the teachings of Christ. Simply being attracted to someone of the same gender is not a sin.

There are many members of the church who may have some manifestation of that attraction. That honor their covenants. They keep the commandments. They are worthy. They can receive the blessings of the temple, and they can serve in the church. It is when we act on the inclination or the attraction... that’s when it becomes a sin.

So, the reason I begin my answer as I did, is that in this question, the word homosexual was used to describe or label a member of the church. It’s an inaccurate label. We are sons and daughters of God, and we determine how we respond to the variety of challenges we face in mortality through the proper exercise of our moral agency.

Now I want to speak very directly to you. The world teaches that we must be tolerant and accepting. There are some things we do not accept or tolerate.

We love all people with whatever challenge any person faces. The purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and of the Savior’s church is to assist people in receiving the strength to deal with the challenge.

So, we do not discriminate, and we are not bigots. We extend Christlike love to all sons and daughters of God. But what is the purpose of the Father’s plan?

We come to the earth, we are blessed to receive a physical body. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the family is central to the Father’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

That plan is halted in anything but a marriage between a man and a woman. Now, Joseph Smith didn’t create the plan. Thomas Monson didn’t create the plan. God the Eternal Father created the plan. The Savior, through His atonement, makes the plan operational, effective in our lives, and the Father has not changed His mind about how the plan should operate.

So please do not let the voices of the world confuse you or lead you in a different direction. As you come to better understand the Father’s plan, then you will understand the purpose for marriage between a man and a woman. (I hope that’s responsive to the question. Anything that anyone would like to add?)

See, a related point is that there is a divinely designed difference between a female spirit and a male spirit. You need to read and study over and over again the family proclamation. It teaches that gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

So, whenever you take those divinely assigned differences, the capacities and talents of a female spirit and of a male spirit, and they are sealed together by the power of the priesthood, it creates a unity and a oneness. It creates a whole (w-h-o-l-e) that cannot be achieved any other way.

Sister Bednar and I have been married for 41 years. She is, other than the Holy Ghost, she is the greatest teacher I have ever had. She does not think what I think, she does not see what I see, and I learn a lot from the things that she sees and thinks that are different from me.

Sometimes men and women get frustrated with each other because they don’t see things the same way. They’re not supposed to see things the same way, and the education that comes with a man and a woman in a marriage ordained of God is one of the richest blessings of this life.

Now, we’ve taken a long time in responding to this question, but hopefully you can sense that the length of this answer emphasizes the importance of this topic in the world of which we live. That’s why we’ve taken quite so long.

from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

thanks CV75!

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I don’t consider being gay a “trouble” but go ahead and continue to speak to me as if I’m not aware of the gift of the Holy Ghost, the light of Christ or a myriad of other doctrinal points after being an active, adult member of the church for 30 years. 

Isn't it lovely how quickly many defenders revert to treating us as if we never knew anything about the Church's teachings?

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

You engaged with me first, but I don’t think you and I are going to find much common ground on this subject. Peace

Yes, I did engage first, on the common ground (I thought) that the light of Christ invites everyone into one common set of covenants and that the Gift of the Holy Ghost (which follows the baptismal covenant) does amazing things for people in their various troubles. Hence, comparison (which often leads to enmity and judgement) is irrelevant and instead we support each other in our various troubles.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, longview said:

Feels like there is so much heat and little understanding.  I think that the link @CV75 just posted will do wonderfully in clarifying what we are talking about.  He only put in 3 paragraphs of Elder Bednar's talk in Chile but I am going to post the entire transcription that someone made from the comment section (I have bolded in red some parts):

from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

thanks CV75!

I think this part is what some bend and twist into a hammer against the Church doctrine:

"There are many different types of challenges. Would it be a challenge to be very beautiful or very handsome, and in the world in which we live, never develop deep character because we’re able to open doors and have success just because of our physical appearance and we become shallow and superficial in many aspects of our lives?

"Some people have physical limitations. They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex."

Some take this to mean he is saying that same-sex attraction/being gay is a challenge, limitation or a "less-than." But I do not think that is what Elder Bednar is suggesting. He is saying that it is something difficult to deal with when "the voices of the world ...confuse you or lead you" away from God's plan by generating confusion, strife and conflict over the controversies that exist in the current "world in which we live."

There are plenty of other topics, but on this one, gay youth are forced into a public pressure-cooker of adults' making.

Edited by CV75
Link to comment
4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes -- I once had a transcript of the talk. Let me see if I can find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

“First I want to change the question–there are no homosexual members of the Church. We are not defined by sexual attraction. We are not defined by sexual behavior. We are sons and daughters of God and all of us have different challenges in the flesh. . . . Simply being attracted to someone of the same gender is not a sin."

“You serve yourself poorly when you identify yourself primarily by your sexual feelings. That isn’t your only characteristic, so don’t give it disproportionate attention. You are first and foremost a son of God, and He loves you."

"What’s more, I love you. My Brethren among the General Authorities love you. I’m reminded of a comment President Boyd K. Packer made in speaking to those with same-gender attraction. ‘We do not reject you,’ he said. ‘… We cannot reject you, for you are the sons and daughters of God. We will not reject you, because we love you.’”

I realize this talk is somehow suppose to make someone feel ok with being gay, but for me, the statements of love feel completely hollow.  Quoting Elder Packer, the apostle who encouraged missionaries to punch out a gay person if they percieved that the gay companion was coming on to them.  And telling us not to identify by our sexuality, while, as you can see by their very thread that the Church itself can't see past our sexuality when even dancing, or holding hands with someone of the same sex is perceived as homosexual behavior, and something that should be cleansed from our lives.  

I want to believe the Church leaders love me, but honestly, I can't feel their love in how we are treated and how much they add to the burden of being gay.  Telling us we are apostates if we choose to marry someone we love of the same sex, refusing to baptize our minor children.  The reversal of that "revelation" seemed more like a PR move than a sincere reaching out to fix something.  No apology.  No we were wrong.  Just a quiet change in policy because so many were upset that the Church leaders were using children to further their agenda against same sex marriage.

I admit that I look at these issues through a very sensitive lens, but that trust has long been broken so many times before.  To feel someone's love, you first have to trust that love is authentic.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, california boy said:

To feel someone's love, you first have to trust that love is authentic.

That is true. There is not a single soul who has ever lived who was more authentic than our Savior in His love for every single person, and still, there were those who did not "feel loved" by Him because they did not trust Him or His message and would not accept His love.

Edited by Nofear
Link to comment
3 hours ago, longview said:

Feels like there is so much heat and little understanding.  I think that the link @CV75 just posted will do wonderfully in clarifying what we are talking about.  He only put in 3 paragraphs of Elder Bednar's talk in Chile but I am going to post the entire transcription that someone made from the comment section (I have bolded in red some parts):

from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ4_wTGv8Ao

thanks CV75!

This is how out of touch with reality you are, it has nothing to do with anything i've talked about. Thanks for wasting my time

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Nofear said:

That is true. There is not a single soul who has ever lived who was more authentic than our Savior in His love for every single person, and still, there were those who did not "feel loved" by Him because they would not accept His love.

That same Savior also cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.  And while he loved and forgave the woman taken in adultery he still instructed her to sin no more.

Love does NOT require acceptance of sin.  It never has.

Link to comment

Are there any scriptures or conference talks or any other prophetic statements that encourage homosexual behavior?  If the church implements polygamy, adds a priesthood ban or discourages interracial marriage, it's easy to find precedence in the scriptures or church history.  If God commands President Nelson to take a sword to the evil Putin, one could look to Nephi and Laban in the BOM.  But the scriptures and prophets have been remarkably consistent in condemning homosexual behavior.  There is lots of counsel for heterosexual marriages, but nothing for SSM.  Why would God wait until the last days to remove a sin serious enough to cause on to lose membership in His church?  That doesn't seem fair to those who lived in the thousands of year prior who were homosexual.  I realize this isn't an issue for critics outside the church and many of the progressive critics in the church.  But I think it would be helpful in convincing many members of the church that God will change his mind eventually if it can be shown that God has approved of homosexual behavior at some point in history.

Link to comment
16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Don’t remind me. I spent eons developing that brilliant plan and then offer Lucifer the VP slot if he would use his oratorical skills to present it and that ******* presented it as his own and didn’t even mention me. Double crossing piece of garbage. I am the only spirit that chose Christ’s plan primarily out of spite.

How would the presentation of what turns out to be your plan of salvation differed from ‘double crossing’ Lucifer’s presentation that would have caused it to gain much wider acceptance among the spirit children of God? In other words, what would you have said in defense of your plan that Lucifer didn’t say, and what you have not said that he did say?

Link to comment
8 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

How would the presentation of what turns out to be your plan of salvation differed from ‘double crossing’ Lucifer’s presentation that would have caused it to gain much wider acceptance among the spirit children of God? In other words, what would you have said in defense of your plan that Lucifer didn’t say, and what you have not said that he did say?

Free ice cream for all.

Link to comment
12 hours ago, Duncan said:

This is how out of touch with reality you are, it has nothing to do with anything i've talked about. Thanks for wasting my time

There are very sound and loving precepts in the Proclamation on the Family and the answers Elder Bednar gave are very encouraging.   What are we missing?  The Gospel of Jesus Christ is NEVER a "waste of time."

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...