NYT Article: What people will and won't say on LGBTQ+ Issues

[SwedishLDS]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

 Our eternal spiritual, and eventually resurrected being, does not always align with our mortal physical bodies.  Some people are born without legs, or arms, or are blind, some are born with significant bodily deformities that are not aligned with their eternal spiritual nature and being - but are temporary disfigurements of mortality.   In other words, sometimes our physical bodies do not always align with our eternal nature.   It goes without saying that our physical bodies do not always align with our spiritual figure and eventual resurrected nature, so how can anyone be certain that an eternally female spirit cannot be born with male chromosomes and genitalia, or vise-versa?  We know that chromosomes get mixed up sometimes.  Sometimes we see three sex chromosomes in people, instead of two.  Sometimes we only see one. So if our eternal gender is a hard dichotomy of either male or female, then we know that our mortal physical bodies do not always align with our spiritual/eternal form/identity.  

Would you be opposed to medical correction of congenital deformities? 

You are making a strawman out of me, thats a rare physical disease and unrelated to the discussion. Yes surgeries for specific things can be warranted. Next you are going to say I oppose blood transmissions.

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

Would you consider that an act of "tarnishing our bodily temples"?  Or is it an act of grace which enhancing our physical experience in mortality?

Is giving puberty blockers responsible? Encourage early teens to have sex changes? We have been told to respect our bodies. We discourage tattoos for similar reasons.

It can be a grace, there are defintely people born with multiple genders, but the current amount is part of a general social movement. 

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

How can we know for certainty, without a revelation, that some of these transitional procedures are not aligning a persons physical appearance with their eternal identity? 

We dont, but changing gender is a permanent effect on the body, so is puberty blockers. We are making the biggest social experiment in human history on our children and society based on little to no information and general feelings. Its irresponsible. 

What we do know, is the importance of the family unit, meanwhile we have 20% of the population removing themselves from the gene pool, and the lowest marriage rate in history.

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

We just don't know, so I don't think it is wise to state such things as doctrinal and/or eternal truth. 

The only thing I stated as eternal is regarding gender which is what church leaders have stated. If I was unclear I apologize. Anyway we have the family proclamation and other teachings to teach us that gender is eternal. We have the law of chastity. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/transgender-understanding-yourself/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-transitioning?lang=eng 

Encouraging people to not live according to church standards is irresponsible.  The family proclamation reads: 

"we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

Chromosomal abnormalities are so common that 1 in 150 babies are born with one. 

https://www.marchofdimes.org/baby/chromosomal-conditions.aspx#:~:text=Each person has 23 pairs,example of a chromosomal condition.

Yes such as down syndrome. There is no way there are that there exists as many trans people biologically as people that transition. Where are all the historical examples? This whole phenomen is popping out of nowhere, historically speaking. This is mostly a social phenomen, not a biological.

Edited April 15, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

We dont, but changing gender is a permanent effect on the body, so is puberty blockers. We are making the biggest social experiment in human history on our children and society based on little to no information and general feelings. Its irresponsible. 

Reconstructive cosmetic surgery for burn victims is done because of the feelings of the person.

[SwedishLDS]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Reconstructive cosmetic surgery for burn victims is done because of the feelings of the person.

what is the societal effects of that surgery? I certainly feel for people in situations like those. I care about LGBT people too btw, I dont want to burn them on a stake. I love my sibling, dads friends daughter, and other folks I have interacted with that are LGBT... I live in inner city big city Sweden people and is a teacher (not saying it makes me right, but I am not totally insulated)

Edited April 15, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

what is the societal effects of that surgery?

The amount of people who stare at the person and the length of said stare. Impacts the person’s potential employment, romantic life, social life, and has knock on effects from all of those.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The research does overlap with her experience and is pretty compelling.  I also find Kim's testimony very compelling

https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/24917-kimpearson/ Check gender…

[CV75]

14 hours ago, kimpearson said:

As more and more research is done and as more and more people transition, there is less and less evidence that the current process is harming large groups of individuals.  Like any complicated process involving the human mind and body, there are mistakes made both by professionals and individuals.  These mistakes are becoming so insignificant compared to the real lived experience of so many that transgender people will become an undeniable segment of the human population and everyone will have to deal with it.  There is no going back because the actual results of transitioning are overwhelmingly positive.  Laws and religious beliefs can't stop something that is so positive in the lives of so many.

People in and out of the Church can lead perfectly satisfactory lives without the covenants of Christ. Some do this in ignorance, some with indifference and some in rebellion. They are perfectly capable of “solving” their problems without Christ, and yet for the most part I believe His hand is stretched out still.

Can you explain how increasing the number of genders and transgendered people within a population changes the Church’s covenant of marriage and policies supporting it (e.g., "Transgender Individuals" in the Handbook, 38.6.23*)? As it stands, the suggestion to do so reminds me of when the definition of marriage was politically or legislatively changed. Its definition never depended on the numbers of saints in the world practicing it.

* which includes: "Circumstances vary greatly from unit to unit and person to person. Members and leaders counsel together and with the Lord. Area Presidencies will help local leaders sensitively address individual situations. Bishops counsel with the stake president. Stake presidents and mission presidents must seek counsel from the Area Presidency (see 32.6.3 and 32.6.3.1)."

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

  I also find Kim's testimony very compelling, coming from someone who has far more direct experience than the rest of us who are making assessments/judgments from a distance, often based entirely on our religious, political, or cultural ideals without really considering the individual. 

But it is anecdotal and his personal conclusions and claims unless I have missed documentation or forgotten he posted it (which the last is quite possible).  Not saying that makes it wrong, just saying in drawing conclusions it is not best practice.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

other words, sometimes our physical bodies do not always align with our eternal nature. 

What physical body perfectly functions?  My guess is even the healthiest of mortal bodies is only an approximation of our eternal nature and ultimately the physical aspect of our resurrected soul.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SwedishLDS said:

There is no way there are that there exists as many trans people biologically as people that transition.

Are you using transgender to include intersex who undergo sexual assignment surgery?  Are you using nonsurgical, but medical or social transtioning only here?  It is confusing exactly what you mean here.

As far as biological trans, what do you mean by this?  Differences in brain structure or something else?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

But it is anecdotal and his personal conclusions and claims unless I have missed documentation or forgotten he posted it (which the last is quite possible).  Not saying that makes it wrong, just saying in drawing conclusions it is not best practice.

I agree, but the fact that his anecdotal testimony of 10 years experience aligns with what a significant amount of literature is finding lends more support to his claims...and to the research.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree, but the fact that his anecdotal testimony of 10 years experience aligns with what a significant amount of literature is finding lends more support to his claims...and to the research.

My bias in evaluating claims made about teens transitioning and gender affirming care in general…

The quality and quantity of mental health care in the US is lacking, dramatically lacking imo*.  Mental health care for youth is even worse than for adults**.  There are overloaded Child Protection agencies (let me know if this needs documentation).  Less hospitals are providing pediatric care.****  There are other areas of lack, but my brain is sluggish and I don’t want to force it to work today, so stopping here as I think I established my claim of poor mental health care for youth.  
 

Cancer care problems:  https://abcnews.go.com/Health/shortage-critical-cancer-drug-forcing-children/story?id=66411784 
Access to health care for diabetes for children:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6456401/

 

So I find it very hard to accept there is the necessary quality of care being provided for the vast majority of youth who are seeking mental health assistance and possibly medical care in this area.  Why would this field be the exception, especially given it is a relatively new field which typically means limited availability of decent practitioners and given the enormous increase in those seeing counseling/treatment(how could education and training programs keep up with the demand?)?

So seeing claims these teens are getting the necessary level of care assessments before treatment, during, and after…I want to see the documentation.  Show this area is the exception to the rule.

*https://www.nami.org/Support-Education/Publications-Reports/Public-Policy-Reports/The-Doctor-is-Out

**https://www.americanbar.org/groups/litigation/committees/diversity-inclusion/articles/2019/youth-access-to-mental-health-civil-rights/

****https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-children-emergencies/fewer-u-s-hospitals-can-care-for-children-idUSKBN19Z1IX

Edited April 16, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

3 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

You are making a strawman out of me, thats a rare physical disease and unrelated to the discussion. Yes surgeries for specific things can be warranted. Next you are going to say I oppose blood transmissions.

Is giving puberty blockers responsible? Encourage early teens to have sex changes? We have been told to respect our bodies. We discourage tattoos for similar reasons.

It can be a grace, there are defintely people born with multiple genders, but the current amount is part of a general social movement. 

We dont, but changing gender is a permanent effect on the body, so is puberty blockers. We are making the biggest social experiment in human history on our children and society based on little to no information and general feelings. Its irresponsible. 

What we do know, is the importance of the family unit, meanwhile we have 20% of the population removing themselves from the gene pool, and the lowest marriage rate in history.

The only thing I stated as eternal is regarding gender which is what church leaders have stated. If I was unclear I apologize. Anyway we have the family proclamation and other teachings to teach us that gender is eternal. We have the law of chastity. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/transgender-understanding-yourself/what-is-the-churchs-position-on-transitioning?lang=eng 

Encouraging people to not live according to church standards is irresponsible.  The family proclamation reads: 

"we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

Yes such as down syndrome. There is no way there are that there exists as many trans people biologically as people that transition. Where are all the historical examples? This whole phenomen is popping out of nowhere, historically speaking. This is mostly a social phenomen, not a biological.

I apologize if you thought I was making a strawman out of you.  That was not my intent.    I thought I was directly addressing your comment that "we should not tarnish our own bodily temples", which you seemed to be generally judging all transition surgeries as guilty of doing.  I think such blanket judgments are harmful.  There is WAY too much we don't know about "eternal gender" and how that aligns with our temporal bodily manifestations of sex and chromosomal order - which as I pointed out doesn't always align with our "eternal order".  

I think we need to refrain from making such black and white judgments without understanding what gender in mortality even is, where gender identity is located in the brain, or how it develops congenitally.  While "eternal gender" may be limited to male and female in the eternities, here in mortality, gender is experienced on a wider scale and the cultural and religious tendency to force people to select one or the other may be the source of much of the suffering and disconnect.  I think the healthiest approach is to validate peoples lived experience because for them it is real.

Here is some really interesting research that needs further exploration:

Quote

“The male and female brain have structural differences,” he says. Men and women tend to have different volumes in certain areas of the brain.

“When we look at the transgender brain, we see that the brain resembles the gender that the person identifies as,” Dr. Altinay says. For example, a person who is born with a penis but ends up identifying as a female often actually has some of the structural characteristics of a “female” brain.

And the brain similarities aren’t only structural.

“We’re also finding some functional similarities between the transgender brain and its identified gender,” Dr. Altinay says.

In studies that use MRIs to take images of the brain as people perform tasks, the brain activity of transgender people tends to look like that of the gender they identify with.

Some research shows the brains of transgender people are somewhere in between, sharing characteristics of both male and female brains, Dr. Altinay says.

This is consistent with the growing understanding that gender exists on a spectrum, with people identifying not only as male or female but also as genderqueer, genderfluid or nonbinary. These terms refer to gender identities that incorporate a variety of gender characteristics.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

As I have stated, I am a minimalist in terms of invasive medical interventions.  I agree that these procedures should be an absolute last resort - but I don't think it is fair to suggest it should not be an option, or to judge those who do choose it.  Because quite frankly, there is really good evidence that it is beneficial to overall wellbeing for many individuals.  We can't be dismissive of that.  Perhaps if society was willing to accepts a spectrum approach to gender, where we culturally value those who identify in ways that don't always match their phenotype - just as much as we value the gender experience of anyone else - perhaps we would see a significant reduction in the desire to transition medically.  We equally need to do away with the cool factor and trendiness of it all.  When it becomes culturally cool to have "gender issues" with kids willing to do anything to get attention and be accepted on one hand, and with religious and cultural expectations and harsh judgments that children's gender match their body on the other hand, perhaps it is not the kids with the problem at all, but society with their black and white judgments on one hand and unhealthy cultural trends on the other with our poor youth suffering in the middle. 

Here is a really compelling article on the subject and I recommend reading the whole thing:

Quote

Researchers in the field of sex and gender are on the brink of understanding a wealth of knowledge about the brain’s gender expression. However, to make decisions about children’s lives based on assumed knowledge is premature. There are several genetic and inborn intersex conditions and syndromes that leave society wanting to “fix” the problem by uprooting natural anatomy, yet similar gender confusions exist without this anatomical disruption. These individuals are labeled gender identity disordered in childhood and many go on to identify as transgender as adults. The “cure” for the gender problem must be related to on a case-by-case basis until more neurological information is available to actually “test” for such a discord between brain and body. There is a great need for more research in the area so that young children do not have to suffer with an identity imposed by society that leads to psychological distress and disorder in addition to not feeling at home in one’s own body. For the first time, neurological findings conclude that there are differences in gender identity in the brain. Swaab’s (2008) findings isolate differences between transgender individuals and those of the assigned and identifying sexes. This research offers the first glance into the richness of a transgendered individual’s brain. Indentifying as one gender and looking like another can one day be a source of pride and insight, yet the lack of dissemination of this information leaves most, if not all, gender deviant children struggling with this completely alone. Their isolation for resources and clinical support leads to poor self identity and self esteem and can even lead to adulthood substance abuse and Axis 1 psychiatric disorders. All of this could result because a child feels he cannot express his or her true self.

Researchers in the field of gender and sexual identity have a responsibility to create effective management models for identity development. Currently, treatment is necessary to help children feel comfortable with their gender expression when it is non-normative. Neurological researchers are still struggling to understand the real difference between people with these afflictions, but during this time it is wrong to call the confusion a disorder before it is fully understood, as scientists did until the 1970’s with homosexuality. Neither the affects of prenatal and puberty hormones nor socialization alone are enough to explain gender identity development, the process must lie in a brain structure. Perhaps someday, when society catches up with research, there will be no need to force a gender upon a child and the desire to live as another gender will not be considered a disorder at all.

https://wp.nyu.edu/steinhardt-appsych_opus/aspects-of-gender-identity-development-searching-for-an-explanation-in-the-brain/

Mortal bodies are complicated.  They are not always as neat and orderly as our eternal gender and nature.  Things are way more nuanced and complicated than we usually make them out to be.  Ultimately the goal is wellbeing of these individuals, and I agree that it needs to be taken on a case by case basis and not guided by cultural and religious ideals (which may not be doctrine at all) that may be misguided and out of touch with the reality of lived experience.

Quote

We are making the biggest social experiment in human history on our children and society based on little to no information and general feelings. Its irresponsible. 

Without more information, anything we do is an experiment - including not intervening medically.  What we do know is that people are suffering terribly.  I think we need to follow the best medical evidence, and we still need more.  But medical intervention does seem to improve well-being for many.  Don't confuse me for advocating this in general, especially for children and those who have not yet hit puberty.  All I am saying is that we CANNOT make judgments of others living with conditions that we have ZERO idea about and expect positive healthy results in these children.  We need to stop forcing them to chose one or the other (a failed experimentation, in my opinion), until we know what the hell is going on.  

Edited April 15, 2022 by pogi

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have read the bill. Have you?

Assuming this is the correct bill, the relevant text would appear to be this:

 

Quote

Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age- appropriate or  developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF

Now, I suppose there could be debate over the definition of the words "Classroom instruction", but the worst-case-scenarios being suggested really seem like a stretch. If a kindergartner asks their gay teacher what he did over the weekend, and he answers "My husband and I went skiing", is that "classroom instruction" regarding sexual orientation? If so, is it also classroom instruction on skiing?
 

Edited April 16, 2022 by cinepro

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Now, I suppose there could be debate over the definition of the words "Classroom instruction", but it the worst-case-scenarios being suggested really seem like a stretch. If a kindergartner asks their gay teacher what he did over the weekend, and he answers "My husband and I went skiing", is that "classroom instruction" regarding sexual orientation? If so, is it also classroom instruction on skiing?
 

According to the teacher that California Boy posted about, it is classroom instruction on skiing.

[cinepro]

20 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I would need a separate category...maybe 2a? I don't mind people transitioning chemically when they're adults and socially as children... I'm concerned about the rapid shift in demographics that have happened very very recently around this. It could indicate that there are more trans people than first assumed....similar to how the acceptance of gay has increased the number of those who ID as bi or acknowledge some same-sex experiences/relationships in their past. But it could also indicate that other issues around bodies, rigid gendering, and trauma are getting funneled into this area. people tend towards simple solutions...so it's often roped as either a or b. I'm more into yes/and. As it it's probably a mix of a and b. So I'm most sitting here skeptical of just about everything and many major voices in this, wondering how this will look in 10 years.

You might find this blog post interesting...

Explaining the LGBT Explosion

Quote

 

 

Could the rising LGBT share merely reflect the decline of closeting? In part. Still, if that’s the whole story, why is there such a massive generational pattern? Why would older LGBTs stay in the closet as the stigma plummets?

You could appeal to age-segregated social circles. Octogenarians fret more about the intolerance of fellow octogenarians, and draw little comfort from the tolerance of today's teen-agers. But the elderly plainly care about the opinions of close family members - and the older you get, the more likely your close family members are to be markedly younger than you are. Nevertheless, Traditionalists' total LGBT share still sums to just 1%.

The evidential elephant in the room is the massive shift from Gen X to Gen Z. Being part of Gen X, I confidently assert that we were far less intolerant than earlier generations. Yet our self-reported LGBT share stayed under 5%. Even if later generations turned the intolerance dial down to zero, why would this relatively minor change multiply Gen Z's numbers more than four-fold?

Another weakness of the closeting story is that mainstream stigma against bisexuals was always milder than against any of the other groups. Yet it is bisexuality that has exploded.

You could argue that stigma has actually reversed, leading young straights to closet as LGBT. This might be true in rare social bubbles, but it's still hard to believe this is common. Even if your parents are officially gay-positive, mild parental dismay when you come out is probably the norm.

What’s really going on? The best stories are the very mechanisms that Wikipedia dismisses: recruitment and the media.

 

[california boy]

5 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

You are making a strawman out of me, thats a rare physical disease and unrelated to the discussion. Yes surgeries for specific things can be warranted. Next you are going to say I oppose blood transmissions.

 

 

You do realize that there are more people who are born Intersected than there are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quote

 

True hermaphrodite is one of the rarest variety of disorders of sexual differentiation (DSD) and represents only 5% cases of all.

 

 

That is easily double the number of members in the population.  Ignoring this real biological occurrence would be equivalent to saying members of the church are not worth considering and statistically insignificant.  Both statements may be true. But if you are intersexed, then it becomes just as impactful in your life as being a member of the Church.

5 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

Yes such as down syndrome. There is no way there are that there exists as many trans people biologically as people that transition. Where are all the historical examples? This whole phenomen is popping out of nowhere, historically speaking. This is mostly a social phenomen, not a biological.

People have been medically transitioning every since it was medically possible.  It is not just a recent thing.   Lili Elbe was the first well-known recipient of male-to-female sex reassignment surgery, in Germany in 1930

[T-Shirt]

44 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

 

You do realize that there are more people who are born Intersected than there are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Quote

True hermaphrodite is one of the rarest variety of disorders of sexual differentiation (DSD) and represents only 5% cases of all.

That is easily double the number of members in the population.  Ignoring this real biological occurrence would be equivalent to saying members of the church are not worth considering and statistically insignificant.  Both statements may be true. But if you are intersexed, then it becomes just as impactful in your life as being a member of the Church.

People have been medically transitioning every since it was medically possible.  It is not just a recent thing.   Lili Elbe was the first well-known recipient of male-to-female sex reassignment surgery, in Germany in 1930

That is 5% of all Sexual Differentiation cases, not total births.  There are many types of sexual differentiation, which are classified as rare.  A true hermaphrodite is the most rare of all DSD's.  According to one study, it is estimated that DSD's represent about 1 in 5500.  That would equate to roughly 1.4 million DSD's in the world and true hermaphrodites are just 5%of that number or about 72,000. That's about one in 110,000.

Edited April 16, 2022 by T-Shirt

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

You don't know, "exactly".  You know very little.

Actions reveal how much people care. Women’s sports are underfunded. Attendance is a fraction of men’s sports. This isn’t me ‘going with my gut’. The data is all there.

9 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

I generally don't watch many women's sports.  However, when my daughter played, I went to every game, from t-ball through high school.  I was very interested in her games.  If she had gone on to play in college or professionally, I would have continued.  I am concerned about women's issues in general.  Most people are.  This is detrimental to women's sports and to women's issues in general.  It throws a giant glass of ice water in the face of all women.

Congratulations on finding yourself temporarily in the main demographic that does attend. How often have you been back to support the team?

10 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Whether a person is in favor of equal funding or not is a totally separate matter and has no relevance to this.  In addition, there are no, "hysterics", just another of your usual overgeneralized, hyperbolic statements.

There are hysterics. There are meltdowns. There is scathing hatred being heaped on literal children labeling them as frauds and cheats. Acting like this is a civilized intellectual issue is silly.

10 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Non sequitur

Meaning you have no other explanation.

10 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

This is utter nonsense.  The problem here is that when you have no argument you resort to insults and odd attempts at humor.  There is no "spike in people demanding fairness" that is your, totally made up, overgeneralization.

Wrong. Women’s sport programs have been begging for more funding and support for years to the sound of crickets.

Now suddenly people jump into the arena and the highest (lowest?) talking heads in the land all have strong opinions on women’s sports and making sure it is fair. What are the strong opinions about? A small handful of people. People have strong opinions even when they are located in areas where the situation hasn’t even appeared yet.

I don’t know what kind of mental hoops you have to jump through to not see that as a spike in people opining on women’s sports but I suspect it is not a road paved with rationality.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

Assuming this is the correct bill, the relevant text would appear to be this:

 

Now, I suppose there could be debate over the definition of the words "Classroom instruction", but the worst-case-scenarios being suggested really seem like a stretch. If a kindergartner asks their gay teacher what he did over the weekend, and he answers "My husband and I went skiing", is that "classroom instruction" regarding sexual orientation? If so, is it also classroom instruction on skiing?
 

That is the usual defensive line but if you go to the preamble listing what the bill’s intent is you get this in the long list of intended effects:

“prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner”

You can argue (correctly) that the preamble is not law but courts can and do take such parts of the law into account when determining intent of the law.

So which is it? Instruction or discussion? So if a child talks about how her mothers went with her on vacation over the summer is that classroom discussion? Is some insane parent going to try to hold the teacher or school liable for not silencing the child and protecting the parent’s child from hearing about this perversion? In a saner world I would assume that no one would be crazy enough to do this but in this bonkers society we are building I think it is likely, probably close to inevitable.

[SwedishLDS]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

I apologize if you thought I was making a strawman out of you.  That was not my intent.    I thought I was directly addressing your comment that "we should not tarnish our own bodily temples", which you seemed to be generally judging all transition surgeries as guilty of doing.  I think such blanket judgments are harmful.  There is WAY too much we don't know about "eternal gender" and how that aligns with our temporal bodily manifestations of sex and chromosomal order - which as I pointed out doesn't always align with our "eternal order".  

I think we need to refrain from making such black and white judgments without understanding what gender in mortality even is, where gender identity is located in the brain, or how it develops congenitally.  While "eternal gender" may be limited to male and female in the eternities, here in mortality, gender is experienced on a wider scale and the cultural and religious tendency to force people to select one or the other may be the source of much of the suffering and disconnect.  I think the healthiest approach is to validate peoples lived experience because for them it is real.

Here is some really interesting research that needs further exploration:

As I have stated, I am a minimalist in terms of invasive medical interventions.  I agree that these procedures should be an absolute last resort - but I don't think it is fair to suggest it should not be an option, or to judge those who do choose it.  Because quite frankly, there is really good evidence that it is beneficial to overall wellbeing for many individuals.  We can't be dismissive of that.  Perhaps if society was willing to accepts a spectrum approach to gender, where we culturally value those who identify in ways that don't always match their phenotype - just as much as we value the gender experience of anyone else - perhaps we would see a significant reduction in the desire to transition medically.  We equally need to do away with the cool factor and trendiness of it all.  When it becomes culturally cool to have "gender issues" with kids willing to do anything to get attention and be accepted on one hand, and with religious and cultural expectations and harsh judgments that children's gender match their body on the other hand, perhaps it is not the kids with the problem at all, but society with their black and white judgments on one hand and unhealthy cultural trends on the other with our poor youth suffering in the middle. 

Here is a really compelling article on the subject and I recommend reading the whole thing:

Mortal bodies are complicated.  They are not always as neat and orderly as our eternal gender and nature.  Things are way more nuanced and complicated than we usually make them out to be.  Ultimately the goal is wellbeing of these individuals, and I agree that it needs to be taken on a case by case basis and not guided by cultural and religious ideals (which may not be doctrine at all) that may be misguided and out of touch with the reality of lived experience.

Without more information, anything we do is an experiment - including not intervening medically.  What we do know is that people are suffering terribly.  I think we need to follow the best medical evidence, and we still need more.  But medical intervention does seem to improve well-being for many.  Don't confuse me for advocating this in general, especially for children and those who have not yet hit puberty.  All I am saying is that we CANNOT make judgments of others living with conditions that we have ZERO idea about and expect positive healthy results in these children.  We need to stop forcing them to chose one or the other (a failed experimentation, in my opinion), until we know what the hell is going on.  

I see, thank you for your thoughtful response. I can understand your view on this regarding knowledge limitations. And you seem to have reasonable caveats.

I do think some surgeries are warranted. I guess, I don’t think its good to change genders so lightly. I could understand it in 20 years, but research is so light right now.

I guess I have a bit of a Bible Job perspective on this. I don’t really think its good regardless of if research says otherwise, to some degree. Thinking of only this life doesn’t make sense to me when we have teachings of the afterlife. Some things are meant to be endured, no?

The bible warns about some of these things:

Deuteronomy 22:5 ESV

“A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.”

Romans 1:26-27 ESV / 9 helpful votes 

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/transvestites

Edited April 16, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[SwedishLDS]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

 

 

You do realize that there are more people who are born Intersected than there are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

That is easily double the number of members in the population.  Ignoring this real biological occurrence would be equivalent to saying members of the church are not worth considering and statistically insignificant.  Both statements may be true. But if you are intersexed, then it becomes just as impactful in your life as being a member of the Church.

People have been medically transitioning every since it was medically possible.  It is not just a recent thing.   Lili Elbe was the first well-known recipient of male-to-female sex reassignment surgery, in Germany in 1930

1930? Thats older than I thought, but still somewhat recent.
 

Its not that they don’t matter, everyone matters, everyone is a child of God. I am just concerned over changing gender. Its not like we have the Roman Empire to pull information from, or the spanish empire, or the Qing dynasty. This is very recent.

How can we build sustainable societies? How can we build societies that will last centuries? How can we follow and heed Gods words in the scriptures? These are some of my guiding questions. Not saying I know everything, I shouldn’t be taken as an authority figure, I just try my best to read and pray, and support what I think is right.

People aren’t reproducing, and forming married families, instead we have divorce, single parent households, and gender disphoria at large. 

The bible warns about these things

https://www.openbible.info/topics/transvestites

Edited April 16, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Scott Lloyd]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have read the bill. Have you?

Your having read the bill doesn’t make your conclusory assertions any the more compelling. 

[filovirus]

How does the church go about recognizing a child’s development into an adult? We believe that a child is accountable at 8 years of age. A precocious child may have understanding sooner, and a child developing slower will be later. Either way 8 has been designated the age.

But that doesn’t mean they grasp the a whole understanding of Gods plan for them. Young men get a preparatory priesthood at age 12, in order to prepare them for the higher priesthood. Young women, although they don’t receive the priesthood are still taught all the values of the priesthood and a preparation to enter the temple.

Finally, at around the age of 18+ that are deemed ready to enter into further covenants with God. Why wait 18+ years? It’s so they have a clear understanding of the decision they are about to enter into.

Parents are involved the whole way. So why is it that we are in such a rush many times to start gender affirming treatments, when we know as Latter-day Saints that it takes a while for a child to mature into an adult?

I’m not saying we should do nothing. We need to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those in need of comfort. This may mean getting professional counseling for our children. 
 

I guess all I’m saying is that we need to slow down on major life altering decisions for our children.

[california boy]

9 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

1930? Thats older than I thought, but still somewhat recent.

I doubt very much that the medical profession could have successfully performed transgender surgery before 1930.  So to suggest that this issue is "somewhat recent" ignores the possibility that it has always existed, it is just that the medical aspect was not possible before.

 

9 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

Its not that they don’t matter, everyone matters, everyone is a child of God. I am just concerned over changing gender. Its not like we have the Roman Empire to pull information from, or the spanish empire, or the Qing dynasty. This is very recent.

How can we build sustainable societies? How can we build societies that will last centuries? How can we follow and heed Gods words in the scriptures? These are some of my guiding questions. Not saying I know everything, I shouldn’t be taken as an authority figure, I just try my best to read and pray, and support what I think is right.

I too try to support what I think is right.  One of the major principles of Christ's teachings is to not spend our time judging others, but to look within ourselves at our own sins.  It is why I don't really worry about other peoples choices.  I only worry about their right to have free agency and to make those choices themselves.

 

9 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

People aren’t reproducing, and forming married families, instead we have divorce, single parent households, and gender disphoria at large. 

The bible warns about these things

https://www.openbible.info/topics/transvestites

  Well, there you have it.  Your biblical quotes suggests that it has been going on since the beginning of time.  Even more conclusive evidence that this has always been a part of human behavior.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your having read the bill doesn’t make your conclusory assertions any the more compelling. 

But if you haven't even bothered to read the bill, aren't your conclusory assertions drawn totally upon other peoples opinions based on the type of media you listen to?