NYT Article: What people will and won't say on LGBTQ+ Issues

[cinepro]

This is an interesting article that explores the nuances between what people are willing (or even able) to say in public, and how the current shifts in society are playing out. Relevant to LDS discussion because I've seen this play out in my own ward, where we have some "Category 1" members (read the article) who lash out at others who even dare question or try to discuss these issues.

Not to mention that the exMo/Critical Mo crowd seems to have jumped on this bandwagon with zealousness that would make a Danite blush, and it's used as a bludgeon against LDS and other exMos that aren't so sure...

How to Make Sense of the New L.B.G.T.Q. Culture War

Most interesting is this observation of the slippery slope:
 

Quote

If conservatives had predicted just before Obergefell v. Hodges that soon a fifth of young adults would identify as L.G.B.T.Q., prominent voices would deploy terms like ‘“pregnant person” and “menstruator” in place of “woman,” and natal males would be winning women’s track and swimming competitions, they would have been treated as hysterics.

The (admittedly conservative) author ends with this prediction:
 

Quote

Within not too short a span of time, not only conservatives but most liberals will recognize that we have been running an experiment on trans-identifying youth without good or certain evidence, inspired by ideological motives rather than scientific rigor, in a way that future generations will regard as a grave medical-political scandal.

This last prediction seems so obvious to me that I would almost considerate a "when", not "if", type statement.

Edited April 13, 2022 by cinepro

[smac97]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

This is an interesting article that explores the nuances between what people are willing (or even able) to say in public, and how the current shifts in society are playing out. Relevant to LDS discussion because I've seen this play out in my own ward, where we have some "Category 1" members (read the article) who lash out at others who even dare question or try to discuss these issues.

Not to mention that the exMo/Critical Mo crowd seems to have jumped on this bandwagon with zealousness that would make a Danite blush, and it's used as a bludgeon against LDS and other exMos that aren't so sure...

How to Make Sense of the New L.B.G.T.Q. Culture War

Most interesting is this observation of the slippery slope:
 

The (admittedly conservative) author ends with this prediction:
 

This last prediction seems so obvious to me that I would almost considerate a "when", not "if", type statement.

Very good article.  Thank you for sharing.

It reminded me of Chesterton's Fence:

Quote

Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood. The quotation is from G. K. Chesterton's 1929 book The Thing, in the chapter entitled "The Drift from Domesticity":

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."

I think the severity of these problems is getting worse because we live in a much more interconnected and information-is-instantly-available-at-our-fingertips world.  There is an element of "oneupmanship" which is having a cyclical and intensifying effect.  Obviously some of the changes we have undergone in society have been marvelous.  Civil Rights.  Women's Rights.  Gay Rights.  These parts of "Chesterton's Fence" did indeed need to be repaired or rebuilt (even if such efforts are themselves flawed and a work in progress).  But I think there is an element of transgressivism in play that cannot be satiated, such that folks go looking for other parts of the fence to tear down, with decreasing levels of inquiry as to whether it should be torn down.  Person A comes along and pushes against Chesterton's Fence, Person B says "Oh yeah?  Well here, I'm going to actually tear down the fence and spit on it.  Ptooey!"  Person C then comes along and says "Hold my beer.  I'm going to douse the fence in gasoline, torch it, and then dance on its smoldering ashes."  And so on.

While Persons A, B and C are having their little spat about who is the biggest, baddest transgressivist, I hope that at some point Person X will come along and re-build the fence.  Person X, you see, found value in the fence.  It was likely built in the first place for a reason, after all.  

I think we are reaching the point in this weirdness where the little boy watching the parade blurts out "But the emperor is naked!" 

What is a "woman?"  

Should biological males compete in women's sports?

Is it possible that there are some forms of "social contagion" floating around?  

Is it possible that we have torn town portions of Chesterton's Fence that - in hindsight - should have remained up?  And should we repair and rebuild those portions?

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

While I am generally for understanding history and why things are the way they are before making changes. An abject ignorance of why things are the way they are has been the stumbling block for international missteps in the last few years for example. I dislike the Chesterton’s fence metaphor because 9 times out of 10 the reason the fence is there is it unfairly benefited people behind the law. While that motive is worth investigating too often I find that it is used to stifle needed change in favor of caution. Perpetually “more studies are needed” or “more time to examine the ramifications”. The same people doing this with one hand are often ramming changes they don’t understand through without any such forethought.

In regards to the article I don’t quite get it. The idea that we are ramming transgender identifying youth into transitions is pretty dubious. Most areas require extensive counseling first. Despite the hysteria there are only a few areas where you can “kind of sort of maybe” receive hormones without parental permission.

I also find the idea that the high levels of mental health problems amongst youth being due to sexuality very dubious. It is probably more the dim economic and environmental outlook, growing disconnection in society, that economic security is becoming more and more difficult to achieve and hold on to, and that there is little hope for improvement.

[cinepro]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that we are ramming transgender identifying youth into transitions is pretty dubious. Most areas require extensive counseling first.

I don't know what the current status is, but a few years ago, the teacher's union in California was trying to make it possible for students to begin hormone therapy without their parent's consent or knowledge. They equate puberty blocking hormone therapy with birth control pills. That seems to be the end goal. But nothing about "extensive counseling".

 

Quote

CRE moves to approve NBI #6/19-12 for immediate action. NBI #6/19-12 CTA will write policy stating it’s support for trans students to have the same rights and decision-making abilities that cis students currently enjoy in regards to making medical decisions about their bodies, sexual health, and mental health.

Rationale: Current interpretation of California state law does not allow trans students to begin gender identity confirming hormone therapy without the consent of both legal guardians, however it does allow for cis minors to receive hormones (e.g. birth control) without the barrier of parental permission. This inequity of decision-making forces some children to go through the wrong puberty and can negatively impact the child’s mental health.

https://www.cta.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/SC-Report-June-2019-For-Web-1.pdf

 

"Extensive counseling" indeed...

Doctors Debate Whether Trans Teens Need Therapy Before Hormones

Quote

Dr. Alex Keuroghlian, a clinical psychiatrist at Fenway Health in Boston, said, “I’m really not a believer in requiring” therapy before transitioning. “Being trans isn’t a mental health problem,”

 

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While I am generally for understanding history and why things are the way they are before making changes. An abject ignorance of why things are the way they are has been the stumbling block for international missteps in the last few years for example. I dislike the Chesterton’s fence metaphor because 9 times out of 10 the reason the fence is there is it unfairly benefited people behind the law. While that motive is worth investigating too often I find that it is used to stifle needed change in favor of caution. Perpetually “more studies are needed” or “more time to examine the ramifications”. The same people doing this with one hand are often ramming changes they don’t understand through without any such forethought.

In regards to the article I don’t quite get it. The idea that we are ramming transgender identifying youth into transitions is pretty dubious. Most areas require extensive counseling first. Despite the hysteria there are only a few areas where you can “kind of sort of maybe” receive hormones without parental permission.

I also find the idea that the high levels of mental health problems amongst youth being due to sexuality very dubious. It is probably more the dim economic and environmental outlook, growing disconnection in society, that economic security is becoming more and more difficult to achieve and hold on to, and that there is little hope for improvement.

I think that many people assume the bold is true, but it's not always the case.  Sometimes only one session of counselling is needed, for example.  

Consider this article (which was originally printed in the LA times but it has a paywall)--

https://worldtimetodays.com/transgender-psychologist-fears-trans-trend-among-teens-has-gone-too-far/

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While I am generally for understanding history and why things are the way they are before making changes. An abject ignorance of why things are the way they are has been the stumbling block for international missteps in the last few years for example. I dislike the Chesterton’s fence metaphor because 9 times out of 10 the reason the fence is there is it unfairly benefited people behind the law. While that motive is worth investigating too often I find that it is used to stifle needed change in favor of caution. Perpetually “more studies are needed” or “more time to examine the ramifications”. The same people doing this with one hand are often ramming changes they don’t understand through without any such forethought.

In regards to the article I don’t quite get it. The idea that we are ramming transgender identifying youth into transitions is pretty dubious. Most areas require extensive counseling first. Despite the hysteria there are only a few areas where you can “kind of sort of maybe” receive hormones without parental permission.

I also find the idea that the high levels of mental health problems amongst youth being due to sexuality very dubious. It is probably more the dim economic and environmental outlook, growing disconnection in society, that economic security is becoming more and more difficult to achieve and hold on to, and that there is little hope for improvement.

One quote from the Times article I quoted earlier-

“Trans or gender diversity is not a mental illness, and mandatory psychotherapy is not the standard of care in the gender-affirming medical model,” Dr. AJ Eckert — medical director of the gender-responsive and life-affirming medicine program at Anchor Health Initiative in Stamford, Connecticut — told the Times.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't know what the current status is, but a few years ago, the teacher's union in California was trying to make it possible for students to begin hormone therapy without their parent's consent or knowledge. They equate puberty blocking hormone therapy with birth control pills. That seems to be the end goal. But nothing about "extensive counseling".

 

 

"Extensive counseling" indeed...

Doctors Debate Whether Trans Teens Need Therapy Before Hormones

 

It is California so it is always odd and the law doesn’t cover the costs. In practice the kid uses parent’s insurance and parents get the bill and the insurance can’t tell parents what it is for. Sounds like a bad sitcom plot. It is definitely a stupid law that doesn’t really protect or help anyone. It is likely to be less harmful than some of the laws other states are running around passing without thinking them through at all but our system of government doesn’t really filter for deep thinking or understanding the role of government in our process for selecting legislators (particularly state legislators).

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that many people assume the bold is true, but it's not always the case.  Sometimes only one session of counselling is needed, for example.  

Consider this article (which was originally printed in the LA times but it has a paywall)--

https://worldtimetodays.com/transgender-psychologist-fears-trans-trend-among-teens-has-gone-too-far/

That article seems pretty vague to me about what therapy was involved.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is California so it is always odd and the law doesn’t cover the costs. In practice the kid uses parent’s insurance and parents get the bill and the insurance can’t tell parents what it is for. Sounds like a bad sitcom plot. It is definitely a stupid law that doesn’t really protect or help anyone. It is likely to be less harmful than some of the laws other states are running around passing without thinking them through at all but our system of government doesn’t really filter for deep thinking or understanding the role of government in our process for selecting legislators (particularly state legislators).

That article seems pretty vague to me about what therapy was involved.

It also specifically says that in some practices, therapy is not required at all.  That doesn't seem very vague.  

Which areas require extensive therapy?  How prevalent is the requirement for therapy and what does it entail?

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

One quote from the Times article I quoted earlier-

“Trans or gender diversity is not a mental illness, and mandatory psychotherapy is not the standard of care in the gender-affirming medical model,” Dr. AJ Eckert — medical director of the gender-responsive and life-affirming medicine program at Anchor Health Initiative in Stamford, Connecticut — told the Times.

Psychotherapy is the treatment of mental and emotional disorders. Therapy is for life problems, decisions, and crises and whatever without disorders. Not mandating psychotherapy is probably okay if they get therapy or therapeutic care from a doctor specializing in assisting with transitions and able to present the pros and cons and what have you. Of course this is US health care so there are probably a lot of doctors rushing people through to maintain profit margins like they do with a lot of elective procedures. This is more of a general system failure though.

[bluebell]

Here's another good article on the issue of trans-kids and therapy.  It's less vague.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

Quote

 

But the number of adolescents requesting medical care is skyrocketing: Now 1.8 percent of people under 18 identify as transgender, double the figure from five years earlier, according to the Trevor Project. A flood of referrals to mental health providers and gender medical clinics, combined with a political climate that sees the treatment of each individual patient as a litmus test of social tolerance, is spurring many providers into sloppy, dangerous care. Often from a place of genuine concern, they are hastily dispensing medicine or recommending medical doctors prescribe it — without following the strict guidelines that govern this treatment. Canada, too, is following our lead: A study of 10 pediatric gender clinics there found that half do not require psychological assessment before initiating puberty blockers or hormones.

The standards of care recommend mental health support and comprehensive assessment for all dysphoric youth before starting medical interventions. The process, done conscientiously, can take a few months (when a young person’s gender has been persistent and there are no simultaneous mental health issues) or up to several years in complicated cases. But few are trained to do it properly, and some clinicians don’t even believe in it, contending without evidence that treating dysphoria medically will resolve other mental health issues. Providers and their behavior haven’t been closely studied, but we find evidence every single day, from our peers across the country and concerned parents who reach out, that the field has moved from a more nuanced, individualized and developmentally appropriate assessment process to one where every problem looks like a medical one that can be solved quickly with medication or, ultimately, surgery. As a result, we may be harming some of the young people we strive to support — people who may not be prepared for the gender transitions they are being rushed into.

 

Quote

“We don’t actually have data on whether psychological assessments lower regret rates,” Johanna Olson-Kennedy, a pediatrician at Children’s Hospital in Los Angeles who is skeptical of therapy requirements and gives hormones to children as young as 12 (despite a lack of science supporting this practice, as well), told the Atlantic. “I don’t send someone to a therapist when I’m going to start them on insulin.” 

Quote

The approach WPATH recommends is collaborative and aims to provide a developmentally appropriate process that involves the parents and takes the complexities of adolescence into consideration. (The constituency of agitated parents who feel excluded is also growing rapidly. These are not conservative evangelicals who don’t believe trans people exist or deserve treatment. They’re usually progressive, educated, loving people who all say, If our kid is really trans, we’ll fully support them. We just want to be as sure as possible, and we can’t find a provider who will actually engage in gender exploring therapy. Instead, doctors and psychologists and social workers are ready to start hormones after one short visit.)

Quote

 

Another reason that teens can receive substandard mental health care is that gender clinics are disastrously overwhelmed. Most have a single social worker who completes a brief “intake,” relying instead on other mental health clinicians in the community to assess patients and offer their conclusions. Frequently, those community clinicians, just like the parents, assume that a more comprehensive assessment will occur in the gender specialty clinic. But in our experience, and based on what our colleagues share, this is rarely the case. Most clinics appear to assume that a referral means a mental health provider in the community has diagnosed gender dysphoria and thereby given the green light for medical intervention.

When working in gender clinics, we’ve also both received letters from therapists who had “assessed” patients they were referring to us. An astonishing number of these were nothing but a paragraph that stated the youth identified as trans, had dysphoria and wanted hormones, so that course was recommended. There are nearly 200,000 members of the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association. Add to that the clinical social workers, marriage counselors and family therapists. The overwhelming majority of those well-intentioned professionals receive limited or no training in the assessment of gender-diverse youth. (We receive requests frequently from people eager for more comprehensive, nuanced trainings, which we both deliver.) In simple terms, the demand for competent care has outstripped the supply of competent providers.

 

Quote

 

Many trans activists want to silence detransitioners or deny their existence, because those cases do add fuel to the conservative agenda that is pushing to deny medical treatment to all transgender young people. (Those conservative views are unacceptable, and medically unsound.) Instead, we should be learning from them and returning to the empirically supported careful assessment model recommended by WPATH. And none of this means that we shouldn’t be listening to the views of gender-diverse teens; it only means that we should listen in the fullest and most probing way possible.

The pressure by activist medical and mental health providers, along with some national LGBT organizations to silence the voices of detransitioners and sabotage the discussion around what is occurring in the field is unconscionable. Not only is it harmful to detransitioned young people — to be made to feel as if their lived experiences are not valid, the very idea that the gender-transition treatment is meant to remedy — but it will undoubtedly raise questions regarding the objectivity of our field and our commitment to help trans people. The fact that some people detransition does not mean that transgender people should not receive the services they need.

 

These are the credentials of the authors of the article, for anyone who wants to suggest that this was written by a conservative or anti-trans bias--

Quote

We are both psychologists who have dedicated our careers to serving transgender patients with ethical, evidence-based treatment. But we see a surge of gender dysphoria cases like Patricia’s — cases that are handled poorly. One of us was the founding psychologist in 2007 of the first pediatric gender clinic in the United States; the other is a transgender woman. We’ve held recent leadership positions in the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which writes the standards of care for transgender people worldwide. Together, across decades of doing this work, we’ve helped hundreds of people transition their genders. This is an era of ugly moral panic about bathrooms, woke indoctrination and identity politics in general. In response, we enthusiastically support the appropriate gender-affirming medical care for trans youth, and we are disgusted by the legislation trying to ban it.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by bluebell

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Psychotherapy is the treatment of mental and emotional disorders. Therapy is for life problems, decisions, and crises and whatever without disorders. Not mandating psychotherapy is probably okay if they get therapy or therapeutic care from a doctor specializing in assisting with transitions and able to present the pros and cons and what have you. Of course this is US health care so there are probably a lot of doctors rushing people through to maintain profit margins like they do with a lot of elective procedures. This is more of a general system failure though.

My previous post speaks to this more specifically.  It is not a general system failure in the way that you are describing it.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It also specifically says that in some practices, therapy is not required at all.  That doesn't seem very vague.  

Which areas require extensive therapy?  How prevalent is the requirement for therapy and what does it entail?

Generally you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria though this is going away. Depending on state and insurance you may need additional sign offs. The insurance proviso is more likely just there to make it difficult than to help anyone because, you know, insurance. The laws are a morass and the reality is that while there are requirements for diagnosis which means a doctor who can provide therapeutic care and counseling. Then again I hear there are already quacks running approval mills you can go through to buy a diagnosis.

I am not arguing the system is good. I am saying I am guessing that article is very narrowly defining what therapy is.

In the OP I am a category 2. I think a lot of the transgender push is akin to back in my college days many feminists declaring themselves to be bi or lesbian and then marrying men later on. Some of them, but not all. A healthy society would be trying to protect these kids from making serious decisions without enough forethought. We are not a healthy society. We can’t even deal with blatant and obvious mass sales of unnecessary opioids to anyone who has a garbage doctor. The system isn’t equipped to handle situations that require even more nuance.

We have parents running around as well with some forbidding any such care and some are shoving them into programs designed to cure the kids that probably work about as well and are run about as ethically as the gay conversion camps. Then you have parents who see their children as trophies and champion and push them into special status. It has become the next version of the sought-after Asperger’s diagnosis or that insane indigo child thing. I read some of these accounts written by parents of children who defy gender stereotypes. They are very sweet and tug the heartstrings but most deserve to at best have the disclaimer “based on actual events”. Many have children talking in ways children just don’t talk unless they have been coached. Since the parent is often selling the article a fair number are probably totally or almost totally made up.

Meanwhile you have a teenager in the trenches of school life hiding their feelings from parents, desperate to be included, and coping with difficult feelings. You kind of hope they never realize that no one really has their best interest at heart.

 

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here's another good article on the issue of trans-kids and therapy.  It's less vague.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/24/trans-kids-therapy-psychologist/

These are the credentials of the authors of the article, for anyone who wants to suggest that this was written by a conservative or anti-trans bias--

 

Those are generally the approval mills I was talking about. It is awful. I think we are not really in disagreement. I am saying there are requirements but they are garbage and you are saying the requirements are circumvented.

I don’t see a way to legislate around it. Any requirement you set up will immediately see some entrepreneur set up a service to take you through it to the end without any real searching. After all there is money to be made here. Most won’t individually diagnose or help the person in question whether they are an adult or a child.

[The Nehor]

Oh, I think I see where I communicated badly. The “extensive therapy” line I used probably was meant to include a bit about how it was not that useful due to the way you can fast-track through any requirements. I apologize to everyone for my bad communication. Particularly to Bluebell who I thought I was sort of agreeing with and not seeing what she was contradicting me on.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Very good article.  Thank you for sharing.

It reminded me of Chesterton's Fence:

I think the severity of these problems is getting worse because we live in a much more interconnected and information-is-instantly-available-at-our-fingertips world.  There is an element of "oneupmanship" which is having a cyclical and intensifying effect.  Obviously some of the changes we have undergone in society have been marvelous.  Civil Rights.  Women's Rights.  Gay Rights.  These parts of "Chesterton's Fence" did indeed need to be repaired or rebuilt (even if such efforts are themselves flawed and a work in progress).  But I think there is an element of transgressivism in play that cannot be satiated, such that folks go looking for other parts of the fence to tear down, with decreasing levels of inquiry as to whether it should be torn down.  Person A comes along and pushes against Chesterton's Fence, Person B says "Oh yeah?  Well here, I'm going to actually tear down the fence and spit on it.  Ptooey!"  Person C then comes along and says "Hold my beer.  I'm going to douse the fence in gasoline, torch it, and then dance on its smoldering ashes."  And so on.

While Persons A, B and C are having their little spat about who is the biggest, baddest transgressivist, I hope that at some point Person X will come along and re-build the fence.  Person X, you see, found value in the fence.  It was likely built in the first place for a reason, after all.  

I think we are reaching the point in this weirdness where the little boy watching the parade blurts out "But the emperor is naked!" 

What is a "woman?"  

Should biological males compete in women's sports?

Is it possible that there are some forms of "social contagion" floating around?  

Is it possible that we have torn town portions of Chesterton's Fence that - in hindsight - should have remained up?  And should we repair and rebuild those portions?

Thanks,

-Smac

For all of the disparagement the family proclamation has been subjected to, it is developments like this that make it ever more clear to me how prescient the Brethren really were in drafting and publishing that document. They truly were acting as watchmen on the tower. 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, I think I see where I communicated badly. The “extensive therapy” line I used probably was meant to include a bit about how it was not that useful due to the way you can fast-track through any requirements. I apologize to everyone for my bad communication. Particularly to Bluebell who I thought I was sort of agreeing with and not seeing what she was contradicting me on.

Thank you for clarify.  Yes, I was confused.   

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Generally you need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria though this is going away. Depending on state and insurance you may need additional sign offs. The insurance proviso is more likely just there to make it difficult than to help anyone because, you know, insurance. The laws are a morass and the reality is that while there are requirements for diagnosis which means a doctor who can provide therapeutic care and counseling. Then again I hear there are already quacks running approval mills you can go through to buy a diagnosis.

I am not arguing the system is good. I am saying I am guessing that article is very narrowly defining what therapy is.

In the OP I am a category 2. I think a lot of the transgender push is akin to back in my college days many feminists declaring themselves to be bi or lesbian and then marrying men later on. Some of them, but not all. A healthy society would be trying to protect these kids from making serious decisions without enough forethought. We are not a healthy society. We can’t even deal with blatant and obvious mass sales of unnecessary opioids to anyone who has a garbage doctor. The system isn’t equipped to handle situations that require even more nuance.

We have parents running around as well with some forbidding any such care and some are shoving them into programs designed to cure the kids that probably work about as well and are run about as ethically as the gay conversion camps. Then you have parents who see their children as trophies and champion and push them into special status. It has become the next version of the sought-after Asperger’s diagnosis or that insane indigo child thing. I read some of these accounts written by parents of children who defy gender stereotypes. They are very sweet and tug the heartstrings but most deserve to at best have the disclaimer “based on actual events”. Many have children talking in ways children just don’t talk unless they have been coached. Since the parent is often selling the article a fair number are probably totally or almost totally made up.

Meanwhile you have a teenager in the trenches of school life hiding their feelings from parents, desperate to be included, and coping with difficult feelings. You kind of hope they never realize that no one really has their best interest at heart.

 

Thanks a lot, 😂 I just went down the Google rabbit-hole of auras because I didn’t know about indigo children. I have a blue aura, btw:)

[kimpearson]

Viewpoint from someone on the front lines dealing with these issues everyday. The Facebook group I administer and mentor for LDS families with queer children is currently getting 5 to 10 requests a day from parents wishing to join.  We are fast approaching 3,000 members in our group.  I and my wife are members of other groups for parents of queer kids that include people of all religions or no religions.   The numbers in these groups are in the 10's of thousands.   5 years ago 90% of the parents joining were dealing with gay kids.  Today its about 40% transgender, 40% gay and 20% other on the queer spectrum.  This article describes nothing that is actually going on.  If the author or any of you would take the time to visit with 20 parents of transgender children and visit with the children themselves, you would discover a very different picture.  You would discover kids with serious depression, suicidal thoughts and young lives coming apart until they come out as transgender.  Once they do, their mental health almost always begins to improve.   The first step these youth and their parents always take is counseling.  Transition usually starts with clothes, hair, makeup and binders.  After a period of counseling if the child is at the right age and wants to, they can start puberty blockers.  Almost all the transgender kids I know today choose the blockers.  The blockers aren't permanent and can be stopped at any time.  Almost universally parents report dramatic improvements in mental health and a return of happiness to their child's life.  Like any medication, there are those who don't respond well to puberty blockers and go off them.  That happens very rarely.  A very common occurrence is for a child to come out gay or bisexual to test the family waters.  If parents are accepting and things progress well, the child will then come out as transgender.  The kids aren't stupid and they know that many parents go into deep shock over transgender versus gay or bisexual.

Many parents currently have concerns about puberty blockers and detransitioning because of articles like this.  These parents are thoroughly investigating both issues and almost without fail come back with only positive reports.  Although there are articles arguing that many transgender people are regretting their decision, that is not the lived experience in the groups I am in.  Many parents in these groups have transgender children that transitioned 5 or more years ago and none have reported a child regretting their transition.  I personally know probably 100 transgender adults.  None of them have ever expressed any regrets.  The only regret they express is that they had to wait until adulthood to start transitioning.  We have had absolutely no cases of children coming out as queer then later saying they are straight or cisgender.  Many bisexual children have married someone of the opposite sex but they still openly call themselves bisexual.  

Now this is only my experience based on 10 years and thousands of personal stories but it resembles nothing like the article or comments offered above.  Kids will keep coming out as queer including transgender and their very lives will depend on acceptance and the ability to live life as they choose.  Literally, children are taking their lives because of the attitudes expressed in this article, by politicians and church leaders of religions.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Psychotherapy is the treatment of mental and emotional disorders. Therapy is for life problems, decisions, and crises and whatever without disorders.

Do you have a source for this?  I just assume people were lazy and shortened it, but they meant the same thing because that was how it was when I was doing clinical psych in the 80’s.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you have a source for this?  I just assume people were lazy and shortened it, but they meant the same thing because that was how it was when I was doing clinical psych in the 80’s.

Not in the practice I use. I guess the more common differentiation is counseling and psychotherapy but maybe that was a shift. I know that I have to make psychotherapy appointments instead of therapy ones because of being a psycho.

[SwedishLDS]

9 hours ago, cinepro said:

This last prediction seems so obvious to me that I would almost considerate a "when", not "if", type statement.

I don’t think this train is stopping regardless of how damaging it will be for those individuals. Marriage rates are down the drain, procreation within the bounds of marriage are down, and there are so many single parents raising children without the help of a spouse. Society right is working on a individualist paradigm and not a family paradigm.

Here in Sweden at many pre schools the workers are required to call parents guardians. LGBT certified pre schools etc. And here it is illegal to home school.

[Raingirl]

From the Mayo Clinic: Psychotherapy is also known as talk therapy, counseling, psychosocial therapy, or, simply, therapy.

I found a number of other sources stating that psychotherapy and therapy are the same thing, that therapy is just the shortened version of psychotherapy, but I’m too lazy to post them all. 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Viewpoint from someone on the front lines dealing with these issues everyday. The Facebook group I administer and mentor for LDS families with queer children is currently getting 5 to 10 requests a day from parents wishing to join.  We are fast approaching 3,000 members in our group.  I and my wife are members of other groups for parents of queer kids that include people of all religions or no religions.   The numbers in these groups are in the 10's of thousands.   5 years ago 90% of the parents joining were dealing with gay kids.  Today its about 40% transgender, 40% gay and 20% other on the queer spectrum.  This article describes nothing that is actually going on.  If the author or any of you would take the time to visit with 20 parents of transgender children and visit with the children themselves, you would discover a very different picture.  You would discover kids with serious depression, suicidal thoughts and young lives coming apart until they come out as transgender.  Once they do, their mental health almost always begins to improve.   The first step these youth and their parents always take is counseling.  Transition usually starts with clothes, hair, makeup and binders.  After a period of counseling if the child is at the right age and wants to, they can start puberty blockers.  Almost all the transgender kids I know today choose the blockers.  The blockers aren't permanent and can be stopped at any time.  Almost universally parents report dramatic improvements in mental health and a return of happiness to their child's life.  Like any medication, there are those who don't respond well to puberty blockers and go off them.  That happens very rarely.  A very common occurrence is for a child to come out gay or bisexual to test the family waters.  If parents are accepting and things progress well, the child will then come out as transgender.  The kids aren't stupid and they know that many parents go into deep shock over transgender versus gay or bisexual.

Many parents currently have concerns about puberty blockers and detransitioning because of articles like this.  These parents are thoroughly investigating both issues and almost without fail come back with only positive reports.  Although there are articles arguing that many transgender people are regretting their decision, that is not the lived experience in the groups I am in.  Many parents in these groups have transgender children that transitioned 5 or more years ago and none have reported a child regretting their transition.  I personally know probably 100 transgender adults.  None of them have ever expressed any regrets.  The only regret they express is that they had to wait until adulthood to start transitioning.  We have had absolutely no cases of children coming out as queer then later saying they are straight or cisgender.  Many bisexual children have married someone of the opposite sex but they still openly call themselves bisexual.  

Now this is only my experience based on 10 years and thousands of personal stories but it resembles nothing like the article or comments offered above.  Kids will keep coming out as queer including transgender and their very lives will depend on acceptance and the ability to live life as they choose.  Literally, children are taking their lives because of the attitudes expressed in this article, by politicians and church leaders of religions.

Most of the current data suggests mental health improves and relatively few regret the transition. The articles saying it makes things worse often reach back to studies in the 70s or 80s or 90s or pick one study in isolation.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

From the Mayo Clinic: Psychotherapy is also known as talk therapy, counseling, psychosocial therapy, or, simply, therapy.

I found a number of other sources stating that psychotherapy and therapy are the same thing, that therapy is just the shortened version of psychotherapy, but I’m too lazy to post them all. 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, maybe my clinic is just weird. Looks like the terms are more commonly psychotherapy vs. counseling.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

. And here it is illegal to home school.

Completely? When did it become so? I remember talking to someone a number of years ago about how many hoops they had to jump through to home school because the government was trying to make it practically impossible but they were still able to do so but were considering coming back to the States. I could be misremembering and it was Finland or Norway (I tend to think of Sweden first because great grandpa was from there and I therefore knew of that country way before the other two), but am wondering how recent this restriction occurred.