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Elder Holland on Suicide


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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

My teenage niece attempted suicide earlier today so if I seem a bit weird on this topic that is probably why. The attempt failed and she is going to be okay. Physically at least.

Hugs

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I want to tell so many people this, what you've said. If someone can just hold on one more day, to see how they feel. I'm often in a point in my life that I want to end it, but then I'm so glad I didn't because it can or will get better. 

I am currently trying to figure out a good way out if I'm diagnosed with Alzheimer's though. My mother got it really young and so I watched what happened to her and it really made me never want to live with it. She had so much grace, but me, not sure what I'll do or say. She's my hero, but it was so unfair. 

Glad you're here Rain. I know that you reached out to me once if I'm remembering right, and you even shared your home or cell number! What a sweet, sweet gesture. 

Hugs.

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41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

My teenage niece attempted suicide earlier today so if I seem a bit weird on this topic that is probably why. The attempt failed and she is going to be okay. Physically at least.

Best wishes to you and your family, Sir.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

My teenage niece attempted suicide earlier today so if I seem a bit weird on this topic that is probably why. The attempt failed and she is going to be okay. Physically at least.

Thank goodness it failed, she has a lot of life to live. 

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My teenage niece attempted suicide earlier today so if I seem a bit weird on this topic that is probably why. The attempt failed and she is going to be okay. Physically at least.

Prayers and love for your family and you.

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My teenage niece attempted suicide earlier today so if I seem a bit weird on this topic that is probably why. The attempt failed and she is going to be okay. Physically at least.

very sorry to hear that. Hugs to you

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12 hours ago, Rain said:

No. You cannot contradict me on my own feelings! That was 30 years ago.  I've had plenty of time to examine my feelings and believe me I have.

Actually, I wasn't contradicting your own feelings. Why would I do that? Or how could I? I was just saying that what you said wasn't an escape is just a different form of escape. You're entitled to disagree with me, and you do, so we're even. I guess.

Apologies if you felt I was impinging on your feelings. That wasn't my intent.

Edited to add: Thanks for the downvote, Raingirl! Means I must be on the right track.

Edited by Stargazer
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21 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Clearly we know nothing of the afterlife. If only there were a group of men called of God to reveal such truths unto us. 

There is the Spirit World chapter in the Brigham Young Priesthood manual, which has things like this:

Quote

I can say with regard to parting with our friends, and going ourselves, that I have been near enough to understand eternity so that I have had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered so that when we advance in years we have to be stubbing along and be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth, even, frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning. … God has revealed some little things, with regard to his movements and power, and the operation and motion of the lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability of the Almighty (DBY, 380).

When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of his power. Here, we are continually troubled with ills and ailments of various kinds. In the spirit world we are free from all this and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence; and we have the Father to speak to us, Jesus to speak to us, and angels to speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection (DBY, 380–81).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng

In looking at the Teachings of Brigham Young on the Spirit World it is evident that he goes far beyond what is contained in the Bible, and that he can do so because of his personal experience.  The manual does not make the connection to what happened to him at Winter Quarters, but that, I think is the best explanation.  See the account here:

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/097-86.pdf

Then there was David B. Haight's NDE.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/11/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng

Joseph F. Smith's Vision of the Redemption of the Dead in our Doctrine and Covenants is also informative and useful.

The Nibley video, Faith of an Observer, contains Nibley's account of his own NDE.  Many years ago I wrote an essay that demonstrates that Alma's conversion was comparable to modern Near Death Experience accounts:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol2/iss1/2/

One of the interesting things about Raymond Moody's Life after Life book is that it was preceeded by Duane Crowther's collection of LDS NDE accounts, Life Everlasting.  Among other things, it includes several accounts, from Joseph Smith's vision of Alvin, to many more up to the time of his writing.  Moody soon discovered how neatly LDS teachings and reports fit with his discoveries.  His book The Light Beyond cites the LDS as the most prominent western faith to accept NDE accounts.  He cites "Mormon Leaders" but if you check the accounts, it turns out to be Brigham Young.  He tells the story of Jedediah Grant's NDE, as reported by Heber C. Kimball in conference, but leaves out Grant's most telling remark, "Why it was just as Brigham has told us many times."

This is a video of Raymond Moody talking with about NDEs and containing the reports of six different experiencers, one of whom tried to commit suicide.  I have seen several different videos on the topic and this is by far the my favorite.

One of the key aspects of NDE accounts on experiencers is that those who have them report that they no longer fear death.  It also turns out that just reading and listening to NDE accounts conveys the same benefits as the actual experience.

This sort of information is readily found, if you seek it.  If not, of course, you can choose to blame LDS leaders.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen
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28 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I was just saying that what you said wasn't an escape is just a different form of escape.

You don’t know the nuances and details of her thought process.  She could have been walking fully toward what she saw was the issue and throwing herself as fully in as she could to solve it in the only way possible that she could see.

With your type of insight, you could claim Jesus was escaping because he allowed himself to be killed, even set things up knowing he would be killed.  A sacrifice is not an escape.

You are over the top arrogant and emotionally blind in this to be dictating the parameters of her experience when you have no way of knowing what it was like.

You need to stop it right now.  It is not kind or wise or loving, what you are doing.  She shared her vulnerability in order to help others and you are taking a knife to shred it rather than accepting it for what it is.

Edited by Calm
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26 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

There is the Spirit World chapter in the Brigham Young Priesthood manual, which has things like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng

In looking at the Teachings of Brigham Young on the Spirit World it is evident that he goes far beyond what is contained in the Bible, and that he can do so because of his personal experience.  The manual does not make the connection to what happened to him at Winter Quarters, but that, I think is the best explanation.  See the account here:

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/097-86.pdf

Then there was David B. Haight's NDE.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/11/the-sacrament-and-the-sacrifice?lang=eng

Joseph F. Smith's Vision of the Redemption of the Dead in our Doctrine and Covenants is also informative and useful.

The Nibley video, Faith of an Observer, contains Nibley's account of his own NDE.  Many years ago I wrote an essay that demonstrates that Alma's conversion was comparable to modern Near Death Experience accounts:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol2/iss1/2/

One of the interesting things about Raymond Moody's Life after Life book is that it was preceeded by Duane Crowther's collection of LDS NDE accounts, Life Everlasting.  Among other things, it includes several accounts, from Joseph Smith's vision of Alvin, to many more up to the time of his writing.  Moody soon discovered how neatly LDS teachings and reports fit with his discoveries.  His book The Light Beyond cites the LDS as the most prominent western faith to accept NDE accounts.  He cites "Mormon Leaders" but if you check the accounts, it turns out to be Brigham Young.  He tells the story of Jedediah Grant's NDE, as reported by Heber C. Kimball in conference, but leaves out Grant's most telling remark, "Why it was just as Brigham has told us many times."

This is a video of Raymond Moody talking with about NDEs and containing the reports of six different experiencers, one of whom tried to commit suicide.  I have seen several different videos on the topic and this is by far the my favorite.

One of the key aspects of NDE accounts on experiencers is that those who have them report that they no longer fear death.  It also turns out that just reading and listening to NDE accounts conveys the same benefits as the actual experience.

This sort of information is readily found, if you seek it.  If not, of course, you can choose to blame LDS leaders.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

And maintain a belief of an afterlife.

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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

You don’t know the nuances and details of her thought process.  

Nor do I need to know them. Because I wasn't criticizing her thought processes. I wasn't criticizing her. I can completely relate to what she experienced, because it is something that I am beginning to feel myself in my own life's story. I was just stating my opinion that escape takes many forms, including escaping from the burden of being a burden, because that worries me in my own situation. And because of that, I can understand at least partly what she was going through way back when! Feel free to disagree, but my word, "taking a knife to shred" her vulnerability? I have done no such thing. 

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

She could have been walking fully toward what she saw was the issue and throwing herself as fully in as she could to solve it in the only way possible that she could see.

I wasn't being critical of her thought processes, or denigrating her solutions. Her solutions were effective, and very workable. The results were admirable. You assume malign intent on my part, and for that I can only shrug my shoulders, because that was not my intent. If you are offended, I suggest that offense occurs in the mind of the person offended. 

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

With your type of insight, you could claim Jesus was escaping because he allowed himself to be killed, even set things up knowing he would be killed.  A sacrifice is not an escape.

No, I couldn't, and Jesus wasn't escaping, he was heading full-speed into peril for the best of reasons, the salvation of mankind. The man or woman who jumps onto a live hand grenade to save the lives of her or his fellows is not escaping, but sacrificing for the greater good. The mother cat who fights and dies to save her kittens from a predator is doing no less.

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are over the top arrogant and emotionally blind in this to be dictating the parameters of her experience when you have no way of knowing what it was like.

I wasn't dictating a single thing. I was simply saying that suicide for any reason is a form of escape. I am actually surprised that you don't see that.

And believe it or not, "escape" is not a pejorative, even in the case of suicide or suicidal thoughts. I completely understand and empathize with escape. 

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

You need to stop it right now.  It is not kind or wise or loving, what you are doing.  She shared her vulnerability in order to help others and you are taking a knife to shred it rather than accepting it for what it is.

You are being over the top emotionally abusive as well, Calm. To me. Blowing up like an atom bomb over what constitutes "escape". Why the heck do you think I stayed away from this place for 3 months?

I'm actually stunned at the mountain this apparent molehill has turned into.

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11 hours ago, ttribe said:

That you don't actually understand the pain of persistent intrusive suicidal thoughts?

Which come in many varieties, not just one…which makes understanding even more complicated and why it is very important to listen, especially to someone who has had the time and ability to process, learn, and reevaluate their experience rather than assuming a one size fits all. 

Edited by Calm
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